11-12-2001 00:48									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion What a bullsh1t. It is not war over there, it's a situation where surprising attacks occur now and again. And how where those children supposed to know that Israeli helicopters would attack that car? Of a known terrorist, eh? What a bullsht, noone can identify a terrorists' car from the outside. Throwing stones, a 2-year-old child? You're getting sillier with every sentence. Don't you even realize you're producing turd when writing posts like that?

A man, who is the official leader of the military wing of the Islamic Jihad(even the EU says that this is a terrorist organization) in Hebron is driving in his car with a bag filled with explosives. The IDF knows his location, and what car he is driving in. Now there are two scenarios possible:
A) 10 minutes later the man gives this bag to other man, who gives it to an 18 years old brainwashed kid in Tul Karem. The suicider passes the border to Israel. 2 days later, the man arrives to Haifa, and in the morning blows himself up in a bus stop filled with students waiting for a bus thus killing Sirotnikov, Taurus, Yoav, Dalgetti and 20 more people.
B) Sharon gives an order to kill this man, the helicopters are firing, he dies together with two more people, one of them is a baby.

There can be no other scenario. After the suicider gets the bag he cannot be found, and to arrest this man before he gives the bag you need to send tanks and troops to Hebron thus causing a major battle, hundreds of dead civilians and a regional war.

Make your choice.

----------

Lately, Hamas, PFLP and the Islamic Jihad started to arrange meetings on the roofs of kindergardens, knowing that Israel knows where they are, and that's how they save themselves.

	11-12-2001 01:06									#32
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that doesn't proof anything... I was responding to Vlad, you raise a completely different point of view... as for your point - read my first post in this thread... I'm unable to select truth from lies and exaggerations here, and I doubt that you have been there when it happened, I suppose you made up the whole story to appear righteous... that's the way Israelis argue, I'm not to blame...

I don't know the facts, you don't know the facts, so all debating of who is right is senseless... all we can do is be glad we have it better (well, I can) and be sorry for the victims... and we can try and tell the buggers t stop it, but it won't work... everything else is completely futile, but even the most intelligent people will never get that... MOBIUS, Eli, Sirotnikov, Natan, all the rest of the crowd... why don't yu see that argumentation is senseless, whatever side you take?

	11-12-2001 01:09									#33
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Hey Lonestar: Israel wouldn't exist if the Brits hadn't taken the mandate over Palestine. That really was an attack against a whole country for anti-semitism, a crime which was perpetrated by your own country in the recent past...

And now for Infant:

Troll, troll, troll. I think that Israel gets too much of a carte blanche from the US, but the opening shot in this thread was ridiculous. It's not even cleverly satirical. It's just

	11-12-2001 01:18									#34
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Does the terrorist deserve a vilolent death, yes, BUT you do not fire upon a car in a busy intersection, you are asking for children to be killed, it was a stupid attack, you wait until he removes himself from collective innocent danger and then you take him out.

In this attack you made yourselfs no better than the Palestine terrorist attacks. The difference between the PLO and Israel is Israel is not supposed to lower herself to the PLO level in killing innocent children.

Does it happen, accidentally, of coarse but you are to use all possible caution when taking someone out, and hitting a car in the middle of busy intersection doesn't even come close to trying to avoid collateral damage.

According to USA today, it said the intended victum was only injured but a 3-year old was dismembered and what about the shrapnel that killed a 13 year old in the taxi car behind, what's your comment about that, too bad so sad.

	11-12-2001 01:22									#35
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Hey Lonestar: Israel wouldn't exist if the Brits hadn't taken the mandate over Palestine. That really was an attack against a whole country for anti-semitism, a crime which was perpetrated by your own country in the recent past...

KH, Maybe, but I was also referring to this .

	11-12-2001 01:28									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Does the terrorist deserve a vilolent death, yes, BUT you do not fire upon a car in a busy intersection, you are asking for children to be killed, it was a stupid attack, you wait until he removes himself from collective innocent danger and then you take him out. In this attack you made yourselfs no better than the Palestine terrorist attacks. The difference between the PLO and Israel is Israel is not supposed to lower herself to the PLO level in killing innocent children. Does it happen, accidentally, of coarse but you are to use all possible caution when taking someone out, and hitting a car in the middle of busy intersection doesn't even come close to trying to avoid collateral damage. According to USA today, it said the intended victum was only injured but a 3-year old was dismembered and what about the shrapnel that killed a 13 year old in the taxi car behind, what's your comment about that, too bad so sad.

**** happens.
The majority of the assasinations hit only and only the target, but you can never be sure.

	11-12-2001 01:29									#37
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So? What should they have done? Allowing open immigration to any Jew who wanted in would have been blatantly partisan on behalf of the Jewish faction in Palestine. If a responsible government (read democratic) of the area called "Palestine" had been created and allowed to do what it wanted, no Jews at all would have made it in. Allowing such immigration pissed the native Muslims off terribly, and if anything the Brits behaved more partially to the Jews than the Muslims.

	11-12-2001 01:34									#38
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Typical Spink-thread...post some bullsh*t and then run away to enjoy others argue about it...

	11-12-2001 01:35									#39
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Intelligent answers like that Eli will get you no support from the USA and the last thing you want to do in our view is become like the PLO, if our support of Israel becomes non-existant you become history, it's a simple fact that your existance relies fully on US military power, look at your military hardware, I would guess the vast majority is US made.

	11-12-2001 01:47									#40
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Infant's latest thread is particularly moronic in light of his recent "Israeli dies as a result of Israeli terrorism" with a thumbs up sign topic.

Ecthelion: People are often called upon to make decisions with less information then they'd like to. May as well practice now. And the attack on Slowwhand was uncalled for.

Vlad: Hardly likely that they were throwing stones in a Palestinian city at a street corner (actually, impossible)

Gibsie: Since he is giving official sanction to the use of child soldiers and "martyrdom operations," and since his security forces torture people to death and execute people who sell land to Jews, I doubt he cares much about such things.

Defiant: That's more than a little tricky. As Rumsfeld said, when asked whether America would give warning before attacking mixed civillian/military targets "if you have al-qaida people hiding out in a Mosque with civillians, and you give them a warning so that they can leave, I'm not sure how you've improved the situation." Israel holds itself to a higher standard, not targetting if it knows civillians are in the car, but you can't ask them not to fight in inhabited areas, that would be creating a safe-zone for terrorists.

	11-12-2001 01:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion So say the US in connection with every bombing, it is so easy to claim. Unofrtunately, since there are no statistics published, it is really hard to distinguish between lie and truth for a civilian. Peiople like SlowwHand believe what their media tells them, people like Infatuation quesiton everything that is popular knowledge. I question both sides, neither MOBIUS nor Eli or Infant, Sirotnikov, one of the mcan ever convicne me. Though Infatuation's points are at least critical, compared to the soft turd that SlowwHand tends to produce... to any of you

Do I sense a little hostility?

Infatuation did what Infatuation does best.
Started a moronic thread based on erroneous facts, then left.

My points are valid to the extreme.
The Israeli's fired on a vehicle, with reason.
The children were unfortunately in the surrounding area.
These particular children's death is sad, but no more sad than the deaths of any child, including Jewish children.

To be honest, I don't know what your problem is, and don't particularly care.
Feel free to show your ass some more.

	11-12-2001 01:37									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Infatuation I heard a lot of noise eminating from Americans that lives should be carried on as normal, that people shouldn't live in fear of further terrorist attacks. Why should it be different for Palestinians? Why should they change their normal lives merely because Israel wants to bomb their children every now and then?

You pathetic, spoiled, know nothing little joke of a nerd.
You come in, start an error filled thread, and then roll around in the stink.
As I said, it's typical.

Let me vent a little.
All,
Whether you agree with Giancarlo, Bob Dornan, Berzerker, Che, Imran, Chris, FG, MtG, or even me is irrelevant.
The people I've just listed are a diverse lot, that run the spectrum of opinion. I don't even like some of them.
The thing is, we at least stand for something, though they may be at different poles.
Infatuation, on the other hand, stands for not a damned thing.
A pompous little silver spoon fed ass, that thinks no one could possibly have a thought as relevant as his, and that all are beneath his stature. Which is of itself laughable.
Your father should have stuffed you in a burlap bag, and tossed you in the middle of the nearest pond at his first opportunity.
If anyone could use a heavy dose of reality, its you (and one other person who will not be named, unless he runs his mouth about this).


Now back to the regularly scheduled crapfest.

	11-12-2001 01:38									#43
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What must be kept in mind is that Israel does not have the same number of options as America. If the Terrorists had to cross, say, a river or ocean to get in, then Israel would have more of a chance of dealing with them without going thorugh regrettable incidents like this.

I am sure that nobody in this thread likes killing children, and everyone would rather this never have happened. However, with nothing stopping terrorists but what is literally a drawn line in the sand, it is hardly surprising that Israel would jump at any chance to prevent said terrorists from causing terrorism. They do not have the luxury of allowing the terrorists due process; however, I, for one, trust the Mosad in acquiring valid intelligence regarding these people, as much as if not more than I trust the USA about Bin Laden's guilt.

And very young children are literally pushed into the line of fire by their parents to throw stones at Israelis.

	11-12-2001 02:48									#44
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Troll

I don't care for your petty insults. When you have the brainpower to rebut my facts, come back to this thread. Until then, goodbye.

*waves*

	11-12-2001 02:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant Natan, Generally I would agree with you, but the Israelis have excellent intelligence, if they knew that terrorist was in that car, they knew where is was going and as soon as that car stopped they could have popped him there.

No, because the missiles are meant for use against vehicles. Besides, the explosion and the shrapnel would still be there. Not that Israel has perfect intelligence anyway, if they did, they wouldn't waste good missiles and they'd just arrest these guys and interrogate them.

quote: I guarantee if the Taliban were hiding in houses protected by children shields, which they could do, and if we started hitting those areas, our public would be up in arms in a hurry, it only takes one picture of a baby's body to start emotions, that is why we are so careful in how we attack. The smart weapons we have is the result of not wanting innocents killed if at all possible.

You could see such pictures easily (just keep visiting www.aljazeera.net, they'll have some soon) but any media outlet which shows them will be considered treasonous. We've certainly bombed villages by mistake already, and killed innocent people.

Ecthelion: What's it to you? Is this discussion harming you? If you don't like it, no one forces you to read it.

	11-12-2001 03:46									#46
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Well no one has yet to post a link to the story so again we have no idea what really happened. If the Israeli attack had a mishap and civillians were killed that is a terrible thing. If the attack saved potentially 20 jewish civillians then the risk was certainly worth it to them. It is a war I don't know how anyone can mistake it for anything else and in wars casulties happen. I think the big difference here is if Israel kills children its a mistake and they certainly do not intend it. If a Palestinian bomber kills children its considered a success. There is simply no room in the world for terrorism.

Ecthelion: I agree its hard for a 2 year old to throw rocks, but pretty common for a 13 year old
Now relax or I will produce more turds

	11-12-2001 03:48									#47
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Stupid Israelis should stop killing children. If they'd get off the Palestian's land this whole thing couldv'e been solved long ago.

	11-12-2001 04:04									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Infatuation I don't care for your petty insults. When you have the brainpower to rebut my facts, come back to this thread. Until then, goodbye. *waves*

Your facts? My ass. You posted a bullshit fabrication of your little pointed head.
The facts were posted, but if need the facts posted again, Poindexter...

HEBRON, West Bank (CNN) -- Israeli combat helicopters fired two missiles at a car in Hebron Monday, leaving two Palestinian children dead and seven other people wounded.

The Palestine Red Crescent Society said the two children killed were a 16-year-old boy and another child between the ages of 5 and 7. Three of the wounded were children, the group said.

Also among those hurt was Mohammed Ayub Sider, a leader of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Red Crescent said. His wounds were described as moderate.

Israel Radio described the strike as an assassination attempt against an Islamic Jihad militant, while the Israel Defense Forces said the intended target of the attack was Sider, who it described as a senior member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

The Palestinian security sources said there were five people in the car. A number of those wounded were said to be bystanders.

A suicide bombing in the Israeli city of Haifa injured 29 people, and four Palestinian police officers were killed by Israeli soldiers.

An IDF spokesman said the IDF "makes every effort to prevent the loss of life of innocent civilians and deeply regrets the loss of life."

The IDF spokesman said Sider was in charge of several cells preparing suicide bombs in Israel. The IDF accused Sider of being behind two shooting incidents and claimed he was planning a terror attack at Be'er Sheva and a kidnapping of an Israeli soldier at Hebron.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad is a militant group dedicated to the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and the destruction of Israel. Callers claiming to represent the Islamic Jihad have claimed responsibility for some of the wave of suicide bombings that began nine days ago.


------------


What else Infatuation? Does your dad need to know where to buy a large burlap bag?
I'll donate one.

	11-12-2001 06:25									#49
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Surprising enough, Mr. Golowka seems to be the webmaster of the Marxist-Humanist Forum Homepage. http://struggle.net/mhf/index.htm

Learn somehing new every day.

	11-12-2001 07:04									#50
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Damn. I knew there was something I liked about him.

	11-12-2001 07:54									#51
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Infatuation Trolls, Nobody is impressed at it

	11-12-2001 08:19									#52
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OK, so everyone who is in favor of declaring Israel and Palestine a UN mandate and sending one million NATO and UN troops into the area to impose order please stand up now and say: "ME, ME, Oh please send me in."

Germans are exempt. D**n, some people have all the luck! You know, looking at the problem from a fifty years later prospective, maybe we shouldn't have encouraged the FRG to renounce war. Instead, we shpuld have punished them by making them permanent UN mercenaries, condemned for all time to fight all over the world in the name of peace and justice. Why didn't we think of that?

	11-12-2001 08:39									#53
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quote: OK, so everyone who is in favor of declaring Israel and Palestine a UN mandate and sending one million NATO and UN troops into the area to impose order please stand up now and say: "ME, ME, Oh please send me in."

I can think of worse things to die for.

	11-12-2001 11:55									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove OK, so everyone who is in favor of declaring Israel and Palestine a UN mandate and sending one million NATO and UN troops into the area to impose order please stand up now and say: "ME, ME, Oh please send me in."

Dont foget to bring one million body bags.

	11-12-2001 12:19									#55
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A question for those who support this:

If you knew beforehand that two children would die in the attack, would you still have wanted to go ahead with it?

	11-12-2001 15:22									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh A question for those who support this: If you knew beforehand that two children would die in the attack, would you still have wanted to go ahead with it?

Two cases :
A) The teract that this man is part of is not supposed to happen in the near future, or this is a retaliation for previous teracts - no.
B) Information that says that either this man is stopped now, or he will succeed in his teract - yes, even if there is a whole kindergarden there.

	11-12-2001 15:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Eli B) Information that says that either this man is stopped now, or he will succeed in his teract - yes, even if there is a whole kindergarden there.

So was B) applicable here? How would you balance it? I mean, if you just want to preserve as many innocent lives as possible, you would not want to kill a whole kindergarten to take out the suicide bomber who only succeeded in killing himself the other day. How do you know how many people the terrorist will kill in the furture? Or is this not a consideration and he should be killed as a point of principle, regardless of innocent lives being lost?

	11-12-2001 15:34									#58
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	11-12-2001 15:39									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh So was B) applicable here?

From what I understand, no. Because as someone said, he could be killed few minutes later not in the middle of a busy intersection.

quote: How would you balance it? I mean, if you just want to preserve as many innocent lives as possible, you would not want to kill a whole kindergarten to take out the suicide bomber who only succeeded in killing himself the other day.

The problem is that you dont know whether he will "succeed" or not. So if this is the last opportunity to kill him, it should be done. We just cant take the risk.

In general, I trust the security services to do their job. While i'm sure that some of them wont mind seeing few more dead Palestinian children, I believe that as a whole they are working right. Also, every assasination needs to be approved by the Kitchen Cabinet(PM, Foreign Minister, Security Minister) and I dont think that on this level people will not consider all the options.

	11-12-2001 20:53									#60
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Natan,
I wasn't necessarily saying they should use missiles later, a shot to the back of the head, execution could be done and it would have full support from all allied nations. You don't always have to use a hammer when a nail will work.

Eli,
Your logic, sometimes really baffles me, under your scenario then the USA should point her nukes at Israel, Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi, Iran, and the rest in the Middle East and make you guys one big sheet of glass, no more school children, but guess what, no more terrorists either, end of story, America is now safe.