12-12-2001 01:18									#61
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quote: Sounds good, but then it just breeds resentment.

I reckon it's a moot point anyway if the kids are anywhere near OBL at the mo'. I mean either one of them daisycutters is going to get them, or OBL is going to do a Goering (you really don't think he's gonna let himself be captured do you?) and either kill'em all himself or make them run shooting at the Special Forces coming to get him.

	12-12-2001 01:36									#62
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Ramo, it's absurd to say that our troops are propping up the Saudi regime against internal dissent. AFAIK, our troops barely even enter Saudi cities, let alone engage in attacks against enemies of the regime or provide for internal security. Similarly, the fact that kurdish terrorists don't target the US while Saudi ones do already suggests that you're theory is moot.

	12-12-2001 02:15									#63
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Rwanda beats the Turks by a factor of ~40-1, IIRC.

Only 12,500 Kurds dead? I think you are underestimating Turkey's capacity for mass murder. I think the numbers are more or less equal. At least 4,000 villages have been destroyed or relocated. 1.5 million people have been made homeless. At least twenty thousand have been killed by the Turks so far.

	12-12-2001 02:16									#64
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See that's what I don't understand. How can you defend albanians and not kurds? interests

Merry Christmass.

	12-12-2001 02:20									#65
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 See that's what I don't understand. How can you defend albanians and not kurds?

How can Greece defend the Kurds and not the Albanians?

	12-12-2001 02:22									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How can Greece defend the Kurds and not the Albanians?

Oh, yes. Greece. The other superpower of the globe

We do what we can thrpough the EU. No admittance to the EU for Turkey untill they clean up their act.

and you...?

	12-12-2001 02:25									#67
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Che, every estimate I've seen for Rwanda comes in at 800 000.

Lost the link now, but a Kurdish website puts their losses at 20 000.

800/20 = 40

	12-12-2001 02:26									#68
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paiktis22: Would you like to take a crack at answering the question before you start accusing others of hyporicy (sp)?

	12-12-2001 02:28									#69
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_provocking albanian unrest. Milosevic goes berserk as expected. BOMB only like you know how... US hegemony over Europe through NATO re-affirmed after the collapse of USSR.

_Turkey exterminating kurds and burning up whole villages with american weapons?..... USA: carry one as long as you grant us use of military air bases to control the middle east.


Germany: banned the sales of helicopters to Turkey because they are used for the extermination of kurds with HUGE political cost for its relationship with Turkey.

France: Officially recognised the genocide of Amenians as a mean to pressure Turkey to respect human rights with HUGE political cost for its relationship with Turkey.

EU as a whole: NO admittance to the EU untill Turkey sobers up (if ever).

US:?

	12-12-2001 02:29									#70
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 See that's what I don't understand. How can you defend albanians and not kurds? interests Merry Christmass.

This ones been a long time comming :

Greeks

	12-12-2001 02:33									#71
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc paiktis22: Would you like to take a crack at answering the question before you start accusing others of hyporicy (sp)?

1 million of Albanian refugees living in Greece. Huge payloads of money to Albania from Greece.

Faboba, aren't the brit spies such a heavy strain to anglo-greek relationship... aw
Britain: America's b!tch and damn proud of it

	12-12-2001 02:35									#72
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paiktis22: You still haven't answered my question. Perhaps it was to be expected given the circumstances but it is still sad.

	12-12-2001 02:38									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc paiktis22: You still haven't answered my question. Perhaps it was to be expected given the circumstances but it is still sad.

Could you please substanciate your question?

If I understand it correctly you are accusing Grece of not protecting Albanians?

Care to say how this is?

	12-12-2001 02:54									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How so?

No alcohol, women must wear the veil, death penalty for adultery (by beheading), bigamy is legal (up to four wives), piunishment for theft is having a hand chopped off, etc. The law of the land is an extreme version of the Sharia. The sect that Saudi Arabia follows is known as Wahhibi'ism. The sect that the Taliban followed is know as Wahhibi'ism. The Saudis are only a little less extreme.

Slavery, while de jure illegal is tolerated and openly practiced. Instead of owning slaves, however, Saudi employers take the passports of foreign workers who then are at the complete mercy of their bosses. Without their passports they cannot freely leave their place of employment and will be jailed and brutally punished if caught.

quote: No, they are a Pakistani creation. They however probably do recieve money from the House of Saud. More of the "protection money" I refered to earlier.

The Pakistani government nutured them in order to take control of Afganistan, however, the movement itself was created and largely funded by the Saudis. Nor was it protection money. The Taliban had many, many supporters in Saudi Arabia (at all levels from the street to princes), and it should be no surprise that such a large number of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis.

In addition, we are hated by many ordinary Saudis for selling arms to their government, which is seen as corrupt and despotic (gee, I wonder why). It may be true that if they didn't buy their guns from us, they'd get them from somplace else (which doesn't absolve our government and more than it would absolve me if I told the cops that if I didn't smoke the pot someone else would have), but when the police cracking your heads and killing for friends have weapons that say, made in the USA, guess who gets blamed. In addition to all this, the fall in oil prices has created a recession in Saudi Arabia and times are hard there for the average Saudi. It's just a kettle of terrorism: extreme ideology, repression, and economic hardship.

It doesn't help that they see us as decadent, either.

	12-12-2001 02:54									#75
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 1 million of Albanian refugees living in Greece. Huge payloads of money to Albania from Greece. Faboba, aren't the brit spies such a heavy strain to anglo-greek relationship... aw Britain: America's b!tch and damn proud of it

Who told you I was a spy.

Well it doesn't matter! I've taken the sionide capsule! I'll be dead is seco

	12-12-2001 03:05									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba Who told you I was a spy. Well it doesn't matter! I've taken the sionide capsule! I'll be dead is seco

Nah, my personal estimate is that they're gonna be ste free very soon. Or at the most some of them will be trialed for violating repeatedly prohobition signs to photograph. But they'll propably be able to get out with probetion. I don't think they are spies. (Except one - who may be).

	12-12-2001 04:36									#77
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Chegitz:
1) Just because the government doesn't let ilegal immigrants stay in the country doesn't mean the government supports slavery.
2) It's not like those F-15 fighter jets are what keeps the house of Saud in power. Last I checked, their armed forces are armed with German-designed G-3 rifles produced under license in Saudi Arabia. If this was really revenge for arms sales, France and Germany would be targetted too.

	12-12-2001 04:45									#78
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Legal immigrants, Natan, legal. Illegal immigrants generally don't have passports to be taken by employers. It's a huge problem in the Gulf states (esp. Kuwait). Despite this, there's good money to be made there, so the foreign workers keep coming. Still the government turns a blind eye when this stuff does happen. (This same situation happens in the USA territory of Saipan, however, at least the workers get paid).

As for the weapons stuff, I admit, it's only a small part of the problem, but it is a reminder. My understanding, however, is there is rather a lot of terrorism in France and Germany, we just don't hear about it.

	12-12-2001 04:51									#79
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Illegals are a big problem in the Gulf States here, too.
Gulfd of Mexico that is.

Well, except for Frodo and Clem, there has been no meaningful input about what to do on the thread subject.

I guess kill them with kindness, and if that doesn't work, just plain kill them in a few years.
Sounds like a plan to me, at least a plan of some kind.

	12-12-2001 05:17									#80
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Illegals are a big problem in the Gulf States here, too. Gulfd of Mexico that is.

And you should be worried too! The last two times illegals flooded into Texas, they stole it.

	12-12-2001 06:12									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Legal immigrants, Natan, legal. Illegal immigrants generally don't have passports to be taken by employers. It's a huge problem in the Gulf states (esp. Kuwait). Despite this, there's good money to be made there, so the foreign workers keep coming. Still the government turns a blind eye when this stuff does happen. (This same situation happens in the USA territory of Saipan, however, at least the workers get paid).

Obviously, the workers still think it worth the risk. But really, I don't see what the government can do about it. The passports are a form of identification, and without them, there's no way to distinguish between legal and ilegal immigrants. I agree it's not a good situation, but I don't think it should be something which makes or breaks an ally for us.

quote: As for the weapons stuff, I admit, it's only a small part of the problem, but it is a reminder. My understanding, however, is there is rather a lot of terrorism in France and Germany, we just don't hear about it.

That's not my understanding. Certainly not terrorism by Saudis.

	12-12-2001 06:20									#82
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Well, in the US (outside of certain Micronesian territories), if you passport gets nicked, you can go to your counsulate and get a new one. I imagine that's pretty standard in Western Europe as well. In Saudi Arabia, you'll get turned in.

*and*

My brain hurts. I'm attacking the Arabs and you're defending them.

	12-12-2001 06:25									#83
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, in the US (outside of certain Micronesian territories), if you passport gets nicked, you can go to your counsulate and get a new one. I imagine that's pretty standard in Western Europe as well. In Saudi Arabia, you'll get turned in.

There has to be some punishment for selling your passport.

quote: My brain hurts. I'm attacking the Arabs and you're defending them.

It's because I'm not a racist and you're not an anti-semite.

	12-12-2001 07:08									#84
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Oh, now you're going to go an ruin a perfectly good adversarial relationship by being nice.

	12-12-2001 07:28									#85
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Oh, now you're going to go an ruin a perfectly good adversarial relationship by being nice.

Can't let that class struggle down for even a moment, eh chegitz?