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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:16
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WHOA!
Mark, remember your shameless plug for this thread in GePap's Civ3 General forum thread on radical suggestions for Civ3? Well, here I am (interest piqued), and I am, ahh, finding all this kinda overwhelming.  I'll have a go with the demo (not knowing what exactly to do yet, nor what the hell a .jar file is!), but if you could suggest some thread or ANYTHING to this Clash newbie to explain, well, ANYTHING, I would be rather grateful.
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Richard Bruns
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NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:16
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I played the Romans. I built up an army and quickly splattered the carthaginians. Here are my impressions:
I cannot undo a road building order I accidentally set. I cannot see roads that are planned but not built.
The econ orders window doesn't work on 600x800. It is chopped off and there isn't a scrollbar, so I can't see the bottom rows. I have to use reorder to see everything.
Graphical glitches and slowness abound. Whenever I scroll on the main map it looks hideous and I have to move the window to make it look right. Can you code a refresh when the user scrolls?
I think that issuing a new move order should cancel the previous one and not get stacked on the end.
The carthaginians had three (at least) "7th army" TF's. Their power circles are small and misleading; a big TF's seems the same size as one unit's.
City names should be labeled. I don't know where Rome and Ravenna are until events tell me about them. The name should be on the map, or at least in the detail frame.
The "Move to nearest enemy" should be recalculated every turn. Now they just go to where the unit was when tne order was given.
The AI does not seem to understand economy of force. It sends units one at a time to splatter against my defenses. Then I can just build up a giant TF and steamroll through their civ.
There should be some kind of home field advantage. Cities fall over way too easily. Maybe in city battles we should generate free horde units to represent militia. When the city is attacked, the units join the defending TF. Then they return to civilian life when the battle is over.
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
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Thanks for the coments, Richard! Although its traditional to Try to throw in at least One good thing when you are tearing something apart 
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Bruns
I played the Romans. I built up an army and quickly splattered the carthaginians. Here are my impressions:
I cannot undo a road building order I accidentally set. I cannot see roads that are planned but not built. |
The first is indeed a long-term issue, but IMO not that big a deal. To see roads that are ordered click on the Roads button. When building new roads, all planned roads are shown. Then click it again if you don't want to build anything
quote:
The econ orders window doesn't work on 600x800. It is chopped off and there isn't a scrollbar, so I can't see the bottom rows. I have to use reorder to see everything. |
Acknowledged issue, but that whole thing is just temporary... it is shown as bug X131 in the list. I am trying not to put much work into interface components that will probably be gone within a few demos. But if there is enough outcry, we can alter directions and do more polishing and less adding of new stuff.
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Graphical glitches and slowness abound. Whenever I scroll on the main map it looks hideous and I have to move the window to make it look right. Can you code a refresh when the user scrolls? |
Hmm, works just fine for me. What kind of machine are you using? Does anyone else see this?
quote:
I think that issuing a new move order should cancel the previous one and not get stacked on the end. |
Works for me. What do others think?
quote:
The carthaginians had three (at least) "7th army" TF's. Their power circles are small and misleading; a big TF's seems the same size as one unit's. |
The naming things are just because we aren't being really careful at this point with names and such. Second issue is already "small feature request" f127 in the list. "Minimum power circle size is a bit too large. I can’t tell from PC if there are one or two full-strength legions in a square. Suggest minimum be shrunk to about 2/3 of current minimum. [high priority, Mark is happy to do if you (Gary) tell me where it is..]"
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City names should be labeled. I don't know where Rome and Ravenna are until events tell me about them. The name should be on the map, or at least in the detail frame. |
The name Is in the detail frame. Select a square, the city name is right there. For names to appear on the map... I would prefer to wait until we have a "full" map with provinces and all, and then see what seems to work.
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The "Move to nearest enemy" should be recalculated every turn. Now they just go to where the unit was when tne order was given. |
Yep, I'll put this in the request file next time I update it.
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The AI does not seem to understand economy of force. It sends units one at a time to splatter against my defenses. Then I can just build up a giant TF and steamroll through their civ. |
Yeah, the next demo should have Much better AI. If something screws up really better AI we will at least bunch units into armies befor attacking.
quote:
There should be some kind of home field advantage. Cities fall over way too easily. Maybe in city battles we should generate free horde units to represent militia. When the city is attacked, the units join the defending TF. Then they return to civilian life when the battle is over. |
Defender advantage is already coded. Militia we need to think more about... Can you post about it in the military thread, and we can try and get some consensus as to whether its a good thing?
Thanks for the detailed feedback!
-Mark
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Richard Bruns
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NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Ouch! I don't know what we can do about it frankly, since those are Very low-level routines. Maybe Gary will have some ideas.
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All I have to do to fix it is to grap the title bar of the map window and move it a couple pixels up or down. That refreshes the screen and it looks ok then. But it gets annoying to do that each time I scroll. Is there a way to code a screen refresh when the mouse leaves the scroll bar?
On a similar note, when I pull up an econ window, all the little number boxes show up first, filling the screen randomly like fireworks. It takes a few seconds for the thing to come up, and gets annoying after a while. I managed to catch a shot of this in progress:
 Attachment: econ_filling.jpg
This has been downloaded 220 time(s).
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
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Henrik, Clash is coded in java, so it is in theory cross-platform. I am not sure which java version runs on Mac, certainly 1.2, maybe 1.3? Try to download the latest java version and see if you can use the game jar.
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KILER
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Making the gui skinnable?
How about all the artwork in game skinnable?
How about OpenGL support ( heard all you have to do is load the libraries and do some basic things but I'm no expert)?
How about being able to go into battles yourself and order units (like in the heros of might and magic series)?
These are only suggestions and not demands, I wonder if the community would like any of those inplemented, thanks.
Does the game use A* algorithm for pathfinding?
Look at what it can do:
If your game is running on a slow computer, you can adjust your A* heuristic to approximate more. This will speed up A*, so your game won't slow to a crawl on those older computers. Conversely, if it is running on a fast computer, you can adjust the heuristic to give better paths. You have more CPU time, so why not use it to make the game run better? This seems to be a good situation -- players who have powerful computers can get more out of the game; yet you don't leave everyone else with an unplayable game.
I'm really only a newbie at Java (only started this morning, and I'm looking for tutorials and stuff to learn, so plz don't bash me if my ideas suck).
Thanks
Last edited by KILER on 18-01-2002 at 14:57
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
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I have trouble with road building: First order is OK, but if on the following tuen I order roads, I get a message that there are no finds to build the road, but I let the econ orders at 30% so why does it complain? Also, road-building is pretty fast for me (again, I always put LOTS of kapital in it but even then, 12 squares including 2 hills and a mountain in one turn, it seems a lot).
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KILER
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I'm new to Java programming but have been doing c++ bfore but I'm still a n00b at both lol.
Does A* automatically scale with the cpu speed or are you just going to set to a certain value?
BTW Are you guys going to release the source code anytime soon?
I'm just wandering cause I just want to mess around with the source code and mebe change some values and names here and there and try and add things just for fun.
I am also wondering:
In Java can you programm it to take full advantage off things like SSE 2?
Can you also add machine code to it?
Also can u link a Java script files to it? (I would assume you guys would have done that cause you probly must have written the ai in java script and then linked it to the main project).
Thanks
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KILER
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Can the Coding Model and Macro Language Model handle Java?
QUOTE:
. For each contiguous map region calculate:
its size in squares
its "center of gravity" (this need not actually be in the feature)
other regions that abut it (using edges recorded above)
QUOTE END
I think the center of gravity would prove quite usefull if you left it in the features, just think about what can be done?
Gravity influences the amount of feul a spaceship needs to reach it's destination (the more gravity the more feul needed).
Also you can have whirlpools (if it's in the disasters module) would be much more accuratley configured with a center of gravity.
Movement of every object also would be influenced by gravity as well.
Just a thought of some of the possiblilties of leaving "center of gravity per tile" in the features.
Thanks
Last edited by KILER on 18-01-2002 at 19:43
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
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(Edit: Did some formatting)quote:
But part of the reason its so fast at 30% road building and above is that 30% is an Enormous amount of resources to put in roads.
What real 'civ' spends more than a few percent of revenues on road-building? There are so many other competing demands... |
Yes, but in the game, which is not a simulation, it seems weird. There are so many things the player doesn't see, that roads, which are something he sees (and not in a lost menu but on the map), should have more importance than in real-life.
Anyway, players need feedback on how much money to put in the road-building (so I don't put 30% where 5% is needed), and they can stage it over several turns.
For example, in the EndRoad button we could show a panel saying the roads will cost this much $, propose an option like build it in 1,2,? turns, and, optionnally from which econ (civ or province) the funds should come. When this panel fades, econ orders are adjusted automatically, and when the roads are built, road-building econ orders are automatically reset to 0.
Of course one could still go manually type the road costs in the econ window, but I think it is very hard for anyone to guess how much money they must put to get their roads built.
As an alternative this panel could be a road-building preferences panel so you set it once and for all, but the changes to econ orders still occur after hitting end road and when the roads are built.
Last edited by LDiCesare on 18-01-2002 at 22:54
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:16
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It is in theory possible to use java as a scripting language for the game. The only problem is you have to know some of the APIs, but it allows for making computations like square roots and other silly things easily. The problem is to wire an interpreter, which I think we should consider only much later. Chris, KILER, if you want to discuss this particular topic more, I suggest the Events/Scenarios thread, as it has to do with customization.
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Blakis Maximus
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This was originally posted in the Documentation: Manuals and Tutorials thread:
Hi all,
I have been lurking for the past few days trying to read as many threads and models as possible (there is a lot out there - much of it outdated I believe). Seeing as how I first learned of Clash early this week, I have some observations and suggestions to make from a newbie's point of view. Hopefully most of this won't be old news/redundant.
1. First of all, let me say that I think this is a great project and has the potential to be far superior to Civ III or any other 4x game currently out on the market. You guys have made a lot of progress! Keep it up!
2. I have played around with Demo 6 and I think it would be great if there was an updated manual or in-game tutorial that explained how everything works. The economic model is ambitious and needs to be better explained (I still don't know what ROI means). I'm not saying dumb it down; the detail and complexity is great (traditional vs market economy - awesome!).
3. As I'm sure you know, the interface needs a lot of work to make it look more like a game and less like Microsoft Excel.
4. I've seen a lot of discussion on terrain and unit graphics and the like. Is there a reason you're not simply using all the great graphics from modpacks that have been created for Civ II and Civ III? It seems to me there are a lot of mature graphics out there that would work great here, and you could save yourselves a lot of time by not reinventing the wheel. The graphics in Demo 6 are nice but they aren't as polished as some of the stuff out there.
5. Tiles in the map that are double-clicked and right-clicked should show appropriate information. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's the equivalent of a city view screen in Demo 6.
6. Why can't I just use the arrow keys to move a unit one tile at a time?
7. There needs to be keyboard shortcuts for everything. Using the mouse is slow.
8. Of course, this isn't necessary now but sound would be nice. Again, there are some great user-created sounds out there.
9. Showing the progress of a battle would be nice.
That's about it for now. I don't know if this is appropriate but have you guys thought about make your source code available. I would love to get the chance to look through it even though I don't have the time to actually add anything useful (I'm in the process of switching jobs, which is somewhat stressful). I'm a pretty good Java programmer and I think it's cool that you've chosen to develop with it...
Reply from Gary Thomas:
Another Java programmer - quick, catch him before he gets away...
quote:
3. As I'm sure you know, the interface needs a lot of work to make it look more like a game and less like Microsoft Excel.
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This is in the pipeline. It will still be tabular though, using swing tables.
quote:
4. I've seen a lot of discussion on terrain and unit graphics and the like. Is there a reason you're not simply using all the great graphics from modpacks that have been created for Civ II and Civ III? It seems to me there are a lot of mature graphics out there that would work great here, and you could save yourselves a lot of time by not reinventing the wheel. The graphics in Demo 6 are nice but they aren't as polished as some of the stuff out there.
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We don't use them because:
1. They are not ours.
2. We haven't the time to find them and dig them out (volunteers?).
3. Many are in odd formats - we haven't the resources to do format conversions (voluneers?).
quote:
5. Tiles in the map that are double-clicked and right-clicked should show appropriate information.
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In the plan.
quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's the equivalent of a city view screen in Demo 6.
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Don't know what this means.
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6. Why can't I just use the arrow keys to move a unit one tile at a time?
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You can, unless it is broken. Too busy to check just now.
quote:
7. There needs to be keyboard shortcuts for everything. Using the mouse is slow.
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Also in the plan.
quote:
8. Of course, this isn't necessary now but sound would be nice. Again, there are some great user-created sounds out there.
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A long way down the track. Before that we need things like saving games...
quote:
9. Showing the progress of a battle would be nice.
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Ditto.
Cheers
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sas
Well, this is my feeling of the game so far:
Basically, the game doesnt feel like a game. I know its fully playable, but it feels lacking. So what ? we're not finished yet.. |
Thanks for the honest assessment sas  It already feels a bit like a game to me, at least sometimes, but we each have our own set of things that turn us on and off...
quote:
*My main complaint as allready mentioned i think, it's the economy model/menue. It looks very complicated (allthough its really not that difficult), and should be make much more userfriendly.
Suggestion: Bars instead of boxes. Make some of the numbers hidden in the interface. You dont really need all that info on everything. |
I hear you... rest assured that you won't need to put up with all those numbers if you don't want to as the game becomes more mature. For now it is a way for players to see "under the hood" of the economy model. And I have put in More numbers not long ago at other playtesters request. The final interface will look nothing like that, and there is so much going on in the Clash economy that actually figuring out what the right things are to put in the interface and how to arrange them won't be trivial. But right now I am working on getting the social/government model going, and I think that's more important than refining the economic orders interface. When we are ready to tackle the next generation of economic interface, I'll solicit your advice, as well as the rest of the team, before we get too far along. Gary is also working on a different approach to government orders for the economy, and hopefully we'll get something more streamlined in terms of an interface out of what he is doing.
quote:
*Make it more easy to know when the next unit is made/finished.
*Make it possible to remove a planned road. I pressed the wrong tile a couple ot times, and couldnt remove it. Mabie i'm missing an option here.
*How about when you hold the pointer still over an icon, you get a short summary of what it does ? |
All these are known issues, but mostly low priority compared to the other things we could do with the time. Hopefully the online help and information stuff will get going in not too long.
Thanks for your comments!
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colorrr
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Hi guys.
I played the v.6 demo and have some comments:
I did enjoy it, the turns go really fast!
I have not played much Clash, above all I found the economic system confusing. I had to guess more or less what I had to put in each slot in order to get any results.
It is hard to see the end results of my actions/investments, and that is a bit of a turn-off.
The interface leaves a lot to be desired, but of course, the game is still in development.
Also found it a little strange to get the unit constructed message one turn before the unit really appeared in the city. Maybe there could be a ghost unit in the city representing that next turn this unit will appear there?
Oh, and the strange update problem with the info boxes of the economic display appearing before the rest of the screen happens to me too.
Another thing I noticed when ordering long movement paths is that a unit sometimes shows it's already executed orders, and the units is like at the middle of the drawn path on the screen. Don't the old orders get deleted when they are executed?
That's it, some good meaning critics. This game will be great when it is finished!
Jorgen
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Blakis Maximus
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Hey Clash Team,
Any idea on when the next demo will be available?
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
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Hey Jorgen, thanks for the comments!
quote:
Originally posted by colorrr
I have not played much Clash, above all I found the economic system confusing. I had to guess more or less what I had to put in each slot in order to get any results.
It is hard to see the end results of my actions/investments, and that is a bit of a turn-off. |
This will get cleaner as time goes on. I will try to get something for estimated time-to-build for military units in for D7, which seems to be the thing that most annoys people.
quote:
Also found it a little strange to get the unit constructed message one turn before the unit really appeared in the city. Maybe there could be a ghost unit in the city representing that next turn this unit will appear there? |
That's a known bug that is already in the list.
quote:
That's it, some good meaning critics. This game will be great when it is finished! |
Thanks again, the criticisms do help in figuring out where we should put our limited resources!
[edit]
Blake, the best guess on the next demo is around the end of the month. It should have a substantial number of new features, and be basically what we described as the Demo 7 target in the Demo 7 & 8 planning thread.
Last edited by Mark_Everson on 08-02-2002 at 08:39
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Apolyton Time is 00:16. |
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08-01-2002 06:11
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