13-12-2001 05:08									#1
	Demo 6 Comments and Bug Reports Increase Your PM Length

Demo 6 is now ready for your download and coments.

Demo 6 (which used to be called Demo 5.1) includes:

1. Roads Implemented. To build them player draws an outline on the map. Once enough economic resources are allocated, they are built.

2. Merchants (at least an alpha version)
The specials I have in so far (to give merchants something to trade):
Gold -> Services ; Tin -> Resources ; Cloth -> Manufactured Goods ; Salt -> Food

3. Army Support: Army build removes population and supplies come from your civ or the army will suffer the concequences. The Hun scenario uses exhaustion of stockpiled supplies as a ticking clock that the Attila player needs to beat or suffer destruction!

4. New info screen we call Events that shows the big things that happened in the turn with links to more detailed info if the player desires.

5. 800x600 res support

6. Fog of war and hidden terrain. (AI will still know whole map for now, since it would be too time-consuming at this stage IMO to have AI able to deal with uncertainty.)

[edit dec 28]
Demo 6.1 adds persistent screen positions of windows saved in a "settings.xml" files, and better combat reports.
It is now the standard D6 download. If you already downloaded 6.0, you will need to download the zip again to get D6.1

The Demo has many intuitive aspects, but we also have not yet made it as user-friendly as the final product will be. Please read the short manual Before you make comments here so that:
1) you know how you are supposed to work things
2) you know what we are looking for feedback on especially
3) you know which bugs already exist, and that you don't need to report.

If you were Good and read the manual last time, then you only need skim it, reading the stuff in bold for changes from the last version.


I would like to thank Gary (If it ain't Military or Economics he codes it!) and Laurent (Military Coder) for their work on the Demo. And I also want to thank Fiera for the graphics.

Let us know what you think!

Download Clash Demo 6 Here

Note: When you unzip the ClashD6.jar file to the desktop, make sure you have "Use folder names" unchecked since otherwise you will end up with the jar file in ...\desktop\Clash Demo\ which will do you no good! [added Dec 20]

Several Playtesters have had trouble getting the demo to run. In at least one case it was due to not following the download directions. We are looking into what is causing the so-far undiagnosed problems, and will keep you posted. If you run the demo and it works fine, please report that also. - Mark [modified Dec 23]

And before you make bug and feature requests, check out the detailed bug list the next post down.

More to come, check this space each time you read the thread!

Some tentative features for Demo 7:

1. Implement tech test incl. military and econ hookups for the limited tech testbed we have so far.
2. Get real provinces going and reorg govt structure
3. Improve AI by at least bunching units into armies for attacks, and improve sophistication of target selection.

On smaller things maybe include pillaging. I'm sure there are other things, but that is all that comes to mind for now.

For those who want a blast from the past here is a link to the Demo 5 Thread.

Last edited by Mark_Everson on 15-01-2002 at 22:39

	18-12-2001 09:21									#2
	Demo 6 Bugs and Small Features Request Lists Inflate your Upload Space

Last updated Jan 15, 2002 (watch this space for updates)

Bugs and small feature requests file has been split into two separate files.

Amazingly, they are called Bugs and Small Feature Requests. Numbering from previous versions is retained for continuity, but the numbering will be independent between the two in the future. Frequently it is a judgment call what’s a bug and what’s a small feature, please just accept what I call it…

This is the Bug List

Most outstanding bugs are minor and will be addressed within the next few releases.

I have assigned priorities to all bug and small feature requsts they are noted in square brackets at the end of each item. Feel free to question my priorities. If there is enough clamor that something I rate low is of high importance, I'll change it...

-55. When there are too many enemy TFs on a square, right-click does not produce a pop-up window with the details. I noticed this when I let the AI grow huge armies (by turn 80). By that time also the power circle of those mega-concentrations vanishes, cause it's too large and it gets buried under tiles further away which are probably refreshed after that. [acknowledged long-term issue, low priority, D8]

-60 After having "worked" the game a while, in two consecutive efforts, the game turn computations were "stuck". Does the existance of oversized log files have anything to do with this? I deleted the files and started another game and the turn ended in a split second. Pathfinding seems to cause no overwork to the program, but perhaps opening and closing the large txt files might do that. (Of course this is a wild and uneducated guess, so I'm probably wrong)
[It doesn’t open and close text files. Don’t know what causes this.]

-109 I got a unit killed out in the middle of nowhere. But its elimination of the fog goes on even after its dead! One of those “ghost” units I presume. [known non-critical issue will fix later]

-116 When econ orders frame comes up first the many little text areas appear with no frame around them then the rest appears. Not critical, but any ideas how to fix this? It didn’t happen in D5. [low priority]

-121 Sometimes Victory or defeat messages don’t come up as they should. Best guess is that ‘ghost’ units are preventing conditions from being fulfilled. [medium priority, D7]

-124 Units are announced to be built, but sometimes don’t show up on map or in Units box until the next turn. [not critical, D7]

-125 “Next TF” button doesn’t work if no TF is selected. Should go to some TF to start if none selected. Perhaps TF closest to current selected square? [medium priority, D7]

-126 There seems to be a bug in Dawn that prevents you from actually using the economies of the cities you conquer. Makes it pretty tough to win! Conquered cities didn’t follow my civ-wide orders, and I couldn’t properly even set the local orders. [Leave for after the govt administration refactoring to see if that fixes it.]

-129 Got message that roads were planned but none set aside even though I did have an order for road building, and was part way through building one. I had other orders that preempted it. [D7]

X131 As a feature request, I'd like a scrollbar in the econ orders window available. You cannot get it all in the screen in 800x600, so you can't give orders below production capital or such... [I went ahead and kludged a fix. I put in a "Reorder" button that flips the categories in the econ orders frame. This makes the previously unavailable capital build orders be on top. Its not a great fix, but It'll do for now.]

---------- Post Demo 6 bugs Dec 20 on --------------------

-138 Pop-up box that says roads were planned but none set aside is really annoying, and for unknown reasons I sometimes get it nearly every turn even when funds are allocated and not all roads are built. Please change this message to an Econ Event [medium priority, D7]

-140 (Axi) One minor glitch: when you resize the units window, the sidebar refuses to adjust, so the active area either gets cut-off, or covers only part of the window. If you meant the units window to have a standard 2 unit rows width, why did you put a sidebar in the first place?

-141. (Axi) Pathfinding doesn't seem to take advantage of roads. [high, D7]

-142. (Axi) Sometimes, when a TF is on the target square of it's previous path, the red dot is still there and the details window says that the unit "has orders", so they have to be cancelled before a new path is ordered. Perhaps the unit did not have enough movement points and it still "owes" some to complete it's path. If this is the problem, fix by crediting the "owed" points to the next move. [don’t know about this one]

-143 Bug with army supplies in Hun scenario. Army Supplies percent in first city taken goes to NaN. [Mark will fix]

-144 (Richard) The "Move to nearest enemy" should be recalculated every turn. Now they just go to where the unit was when tne order was given.[low, D7]

-145 (Richard) Graphical glitches and slowness abound. Whenever I scroll on the main map it looks hideous and I have to move the window to make it look right. Can you code a refresh when the user scrolls? I have a Gateway pile of crap with a Rage 128 pro graphics card. Idea: Is there a way to code a screen refresh when the mouse leaves the scroll bar? [medium, D7]


Command line switches (Must be in command line mode (FE batch file) to use):
-fe = error logging to a file
-no = no AI movement
-seed = random numbers use constant seed for reproducible behavior
-800x600 = start in 800 x 600 res mode
-allecon = allows access to economic orders/info for non-player civs
-riotsoff = turn off riots model (demo 7 feature, default is riots are on)


---------------------------------------------------------


This is the Small Feature List current as of January 6, 2002

I have assigned priorities to all bug and small feature requsts they are noted in square brackets at the end of each item. Feel free to question my priorities. If there is enough clamor that something I rate low is of high importance, I'll change it...

f62 A partial cancellation order is also lacking, so that only the last step of a detailed path will can be cancelled. [eventually need, but low priority]

f63 The units are shown jumping from initial to final state, without me seeing their pacing. [actually there is an update by tick, but its fast on some machines] This is crucial for gameplay, so sliding of units (like in civ2 or civ-evo) has to be introduced. [IMO sliding speed of units should be selectable by player, with the choice included of no sliding (or very little), low priority]

f69 One thing that is needed is some way to know what units are projected to be created in each square and when. Put this in the details frame or the econ info window. Or rather make a city screen, like in the ole civ2! Integration is the key. [Seems like D7+ to me, nice to have, but not essential]

f72 Economic consequences of battle -- The two armies share the square, fighting every turn. But there seem to be no economic consequences to this raging battle. [D7 feature]

f74 One thing we could use when there are multiple TFs in a square is whether they have movement orders or not. Perhaps you could just put the same red circles you put on the path. So a circled 2 in a TFs box would indicate that it has moves for two more turns registered. This is not urgent, just thought I'd mention it.
[Click on the details in the popup menu to get this.]
[If I have to click on every TF to see which has orders it is just about a useless capability. I should be able to See from the TF box which ones have orders. This is not urgent for D6, but needs to be handled in some way to avoid player (read ‘Mark’) frustration. [eventually need, medium priority, D7?]

f101 Chariot moves are Waaay too restrictive. At a minimum they should have allowable but reduced movement in hills, and possibly broken terrain. Right now Chariots are only of any good if you move over completely flat land w/o forest. [eventually need, medium priority, D7?]

f108 Unit details issue. With two TFs in a square right-clicking always gives details for the one selected to move (white outline on box), not the one you rt.-click on. [Very counter-intuitive, but it is the spec for now. Selected TF is one right-click gives info for.] I (Mark would like to make it a feature that the one you right-click on is the one you get move orders for. If the click is not identifiable as pertaining to a given TF or unit, only then would I have it apply to the selected (white box) one. [eventually want, medium priority, D7?]

f118 “hide events” should also hide the detailed description boxes associated with events. Actually closing them would be best so that we don’t end up with hundreds of little event boxes accumulated and hidden from view by the end of the game. [medium priority, D7]

f119 Eventually need to put in one or both of the new ‘city’ images? With the current ones you can’t see the roads very well. [medium priority, D7]

f127 Minimum power circle size is a bit too large. I can’t tell from PC if there are one or two full-strength legions in a square. Suggest minimum be shrunk to about 2/3 of current minimum. [high priority, Mark is happy to do if you tell me where it is..]

f135 Events suggestion from Laurent -- Events should appear in reverse order. Currently most recent is on top. I had an army fight 4 times in one turn (poor they). The display should have shown events: Health
9->1.5, 1.5->0.8,0.8->0.6,0.6->0.4, but it was the other way round.

f136 Combat Reports -- At some point there should probably be a breakdown of number of units of each type on each side, but its not urgent. Also unit power, health, etc should probably just be reported as integers. Health 23.4857392 is a bit disconcerting. [mostly fixed, but sometimes a long string of numbers seen]

f137. (Axi) The road graphics do not coincide at the edges of tiles (on the diagonal direction), which results into roads that are not continuous. The roads should also be of brighter color and/or thicker, in order to be more visible. [wait for artist]

f138. (Axi) The movement path of the units is drawn on a layer below the units and the power circles, resulting into it being hard to see sometimes. It should be always drawn on top. [medium, D7]

f139. (Axi) A unit that is on the top row of squares of the map gets cut-off by the edge of the window. Perhaps you should leave some black margin above the map area. [medium, D7]

f140. (Axi) For users that do not use the same colors as the windows default appearance, the area where you can toggle between traditional and market economy bears the color of the window, while the surrounding area bears the color of the windows default appearance. (I am using a blue-gray tone which makes the thing rather ugly). [low, D7]

f141. (Axi) The TF box around a single bowmen unit is too narrow. [generally there should be a minimum width for the box around a unit regardless of its power. As it is sometimes box shrinks to unappealing size. Low, D7+]

f142. (Axi) The TF box does not need to have a gray background. In demo 4 it had the flat ground for background. Please bring that back and make it so that the background copies the tile which is currently selected. [Low, D7+]

f143. (Axi) Isn't there a way to rearrange the TFs that are in the unit box? Units can be arranged at will inside TFs by assigning them one at a time, but when the TF is disbanded, they get scrambled again. [This doesn’t seem important to me, any feedback either way? ]

f144. (Axi) Since we can save window settings now, how about adding the general settings (fog of war, hidden map, TF selection and whatever is added next) into that file? [Low, D7+]

f145. (Axi) Shouldn't there be "back" buttons in all the launch screens, along with the "exit" ones? [Low, D7+]

f146. (Axi) The [econ orders] reorder button seems to be reordering infraclasses by groups. Perhaps the expandable list idea mentioned somewhere above should be implemented, providing us with a much nicer representation of expenses. [Good idea, but only when econ interface completely redone IMO]

f147. (Axi) I feel that it would be ergonomically better if we could have a merged window for both civ, province and square orders, where we could give orders side by side. Also an option to clear all orders on each level would be swell. [Hmm, not sure what I think about this, but it’s a long way off anyway]

f148 (Richard) I think that issuing a new move order should cancel the previous one and not get stacked on the end. [Agree, needing to cancel orders is a pain. medium priority]

Last edited by Mark_Everson on 16-01-2002 at 08:46

	18-12-2001 14:54									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

81:

quote: 1 I had a phalanx built and the icon used was the bowmen one. I checked, and there seemed to be no bowmen orders. Can?t reproduce but I have now seen bowmen icons spontaneously appearing, especially in larger TFs several times

Actually, the archer image is used for bowmen and skirmishers. It is possible that a TF with lots of losses has skirmishers as their most numerous survivors, so they would show with the archer image. I guess it is the cause of the bug.

As a feature request, I'd like a scrollbar in the econ orders window available. You cannot get it all in the screen in 800x600, so you can't give orders below production capital or such...

	19-12-2001 08:02									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Thanks Laurent, thats a Great explanation for the bowmen 'bug'. It fits with everything I have seen!

On the Econ Orders for 800x600 all I have to say is... Doh! I should have figured that out since the civ one runs all the way to the bottom even at the higher res. I'll add it to the bug list and either fix it, or let Gary convince me to change both orders and info into a combined screen using tables.

	21-12-2001 03:21									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Laurent, I went ahead and kludged a fix for the bug where at 800x600 res you can't issue all the orders. I put in a "Reorder" button that flips the categories in the econ orders frame. This makes the previously unavailable capital build orders be on top. Its not a great fix, but It'll do for now. I'm thinking we can put out a bug fix and minor feature release in a week or so once we get comments on what the big issues are. Gary also has a new thing that saves the screen location of the frames, so if playtesters prefer a different arrangement or window size they can get it every time after saving it once.

	21-12-2001 09:46									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I followed the instructions and it didn't run. I went for the alternative option (ClashDemo directory and batch file) and didn't run either, but I got an error message:

Error ocurred during initialization of VM
java/lang/NoClassDefFoundError: java/lang/Object

	21-12-2001 14:17									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Rodrigo, if the VM doesn't find java.lang.Object, then it is your java installation which has a problem. You should check if you have a CLASSPATH environment variable, and put in it the directory where your .class are. I don't know where your JVM is, but it shouldn't be far. Look for a jar or class directory.

	21-12-2001 16:01									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Sorry Rodrigo!

Just to be sure, did you download the java package in step 1? The one that worked for Demo 4 Will Not work with this release. Only if you ran D5 can you skip step 1.

Laurent: Are you sure you need a classpath for the JVM files? IIRC the java installation uses path to say where java.exe is, and it finds the java .jar files from there.

If what Laurent says doesn't work for you, we'll get back to you.

	22-12-2001 05:40									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hi Rodrigo, more info...

I've done some followup testing on my wife's computer. The only java-related stuff on her machine is JRE v 1.3.1_01. When I place ClashD6.jar on the desktop it runs fine. So I'm hoping you just didn't do step 1. If you did, what OS do you use? If its an old one the JRE v 1.3.1_01 might not be supported completely. I think it might not work right on Win95 for example. Just let me know what the situation is...

	22-12-2001 12:10									#10
	Comments - or enhancement requests Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I suggest that the econ order window is too big, and an alternative solution to a sccrollbar. It could be cut in categories, in particular, one could put a military budget in the econ window so you allocate a global budget, and have another window with military detail. We could do it in a windows-explorer-like way, one tree/view to browse categories (military, mines, others) in left part and details on the category in the right part. I'd also like to add one category to military, which is training, in addition to the various units. The code supports training but it is pretty unused. Currently, training drives the price of elements, maybe it would have to be the other way round if it is all seen as econ?

	22-12-2001 15:51									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Comments From a thread in the ALT CIVS forum on demo bombs. I am copying them here so we can figure out what's going on in this one central thread:

Chris Wilkinson Said:
I tried it but it didn't work - I can't remember exactly why, I'll post when I get home tonight...

dexter4dxm Said:
same for me, no luck here. i'm pretty sure i set everything up right... and the dos window closes before i can see what it says

Chris Wilkinson Said:
The batch file doesn't work for me - when I run the Java program I go through the menu, select my Civ and then it exits...


My response from the other thread:

Many very bad words! Sorry for the problems. The Exact same procedure worked for D5, so I am mystified... But we'll figure it out.



dexter4dxm:
There must be a default setting on your machine to auto-close dos windows once the program is complete (in this case after it bombs ). I think you can change that setting by calling up a dos window, hitting the propreties button, then on the program tab uncheck "close on exit". It should save that setting. If that doesnt at least let you see the error message try this:

1. open a dos window by hand
2. type c:
3. type cd \ClashDemo
(dir should now be c:\ClashDemo
3. type: java -jar CLASHD6.jar

At least then the dos window will give you the error message and we can see what's going on.

Chris:
"The batch file doesn't work for me"
What does the output say when it doesnt work? If the dos window doesn't stick around, do what I asked Dexter.

"when I run the Java program I go through the menu, select my Civ and then it exits..."
Now that is Really odd. If we left a file out of the Jar file it would explain that, but as I said in the quote above, I put it on my wife's comp, which has Nothing clash or java-related except the D5 download, in a separate jar file, and it worked fine.

Anybody have an idea on this???

Thanks guys, I hope you can stick with this for a few more short rounds of Q&A!

-Mark

	23-12-2001 01:24									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

dexter4dxm has responded to my post:

quote: well, i'm using windows xp. does dos mode even exist in xp? if it does i cant find it. and when i check the properties of the batch file it doesn't let me change any window settings.

Anyone know any issues on winXP and java jre? I couldn't find an explicit mention of that product as supported on the jre download page.

But while I was there I discovered something else. Sun has switched the standard download from JRE v 1.3.1_01 to JRE v 1.3.1_02. I have tested JRE v 1.3.1_02 just in case it made a difference. It worked fine on my wifes comp, so I don't think that's the problem.

Will keep everyone posted, and resolve this issue asap.

-Mark

	23-12-2001 11:18									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well some good news, I can get it too work

Played about 100 turns. Quite playable, the AI swapped cities over and over.

LOL, took me a few turns to reliase it was simeltanious movement

I could only get one city to produce units, the others, even with 70% on phalanax' (and with a tresaury of -1000, nice cheat ) couldn't produce anything. I didn't get too involved because I can't understand the economy part of your game : cute: , but hey, well done anyhow.

	23-12-2001 15:31									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi guys,

Here's what the batch file says:


C:\ClashDemo>
C:\ClashDemo>c:

C:\ClashDemo>cd \ClashDemo

C:\ClashDemo>
C:\ClashDemo>java -jar CLASHD6.jar
Bad command or file name

C:\ClashDemo>
C:\ClashDemo>


I haven't updated the java file you have to download since Demo 4 - has it changed at all?

	23-12-2001 15:57									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hi heardie:

Thanks for checking it out, and giving confirmation it worked for you! On the economy, for now, once the treasury goes negative you can't build anything, so the lack of unit building doesnt bother me. Gotta put the -treasury limit in the manual though! I think if you can skim the manual it will be clearer what is going on.

Hi Chris:

You do need to download another version of the JRE to get it to run. It is download #1 on the download page.

	23-12-2001 18:01									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It works fine with me, as demo5 did.

Demo6 is much more playable than demo5.

One minor glitch: when you resize the units window, the sidebar refuses to adjust, so the active area either gets cut-off, or covers only part of the window. If you meant the units window to have a standard 2 unit rows width, why did you put a sidebar in the first place?

I tried to rearrange the windows to fit my 1280x1024 display. I managed to fit the two economy windows on the left and the other ones below the map. When you introduce window position memory, I'll try to find a better scheme.

What I want to see next is the introduction of at least some save/resume functionality.

	23-12-2001 23:35									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm going to re-post something I posted in Alt Civ's, because I put it there despite Mark asking numerous times to put it here. So, I hope it's remotely useful.

I'm also having the problem of the game quitting after you select your civ. Here's what I wrote:

I didn't do the installation quite as your webpage says to. This probably limits the helpfulness of my experience... But, after putzing around with putting the JAR in different places, I got the most success from putting it in \jdk1.2\bin, where I would then run "java -jar clashd6.jar." I get the start-up menu, then scenario selection, then player selection, and then it halts, with the console window saying a certain field didn't exist. It was from/about "javax.swing.JDesktopPane," regarding a field... "OUTLINE_something_something" I think. Clash did create two text files, "economy" and "tech," I believe, which convinces me that it got to the point of doing *something*...

There's a method list, I mean a stack trace, but I don't remember what was up. Sorry I can't be more help at the moment; I'm at a lab computer, with no internet from my home computer.


(end quote)

I hope that is of some use. I am using Win98, 2nd ed I believe.

Miznia

	24-12-2001 00:38									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hi Axi, good to 'see' you!

Glad you found the playability improved, we did implement several of your requesed features, and fixed Lots of bugs.

Gary has already implemented screen layout saves. It will be in a minor feature release just to tidy up a few ends fairly soon.

Full game saves will probably be a few demos down the line.

Hi Miznia:

Well without java 3 you ain't gonna get very far. Thanks for trying it, but to save yourself grief, don't try it further till you get 1.3 one way or the other. If you get SDK 1.3 it should work, or you could just download the JRE as in step 1 of the downloads.

And thanks for putting the reply here!

	24-12-2001 23:18									#19
	Last Christmas I gave you my heart... Tired of ads?

... this year I'll give you something special...

...my comments on demo6!

General comments and old bugs

1. You have renamed demo 5.1 to demo 6, but you forgot to change that in the game window title. Remember to check next time, before publishing the next demo.

2. Bug 59, which I had reported, does not appear in demo6.

3. The movement by tick, mentioned in bug 63 is now apparent on my machine, although the game still advances rather quickly for my taste.

4. The "detailed message" after a battle, mentioned in bug 91, (this is the new version right?) seems counterintuitive to me too. Destroyed units should state to who they belonged and which they were. Keep the cost in that info, it is nice to see what a waste of money war is...

5. I confirm bug 116 - happens on my machine too.

6. Referring to bug 119, I seem to have killed one such ghost unit.

7. Bug 124 is always happening to me too. It's good to have a warning about when to expect a new unit, but this of course is not the solution.

8. Bug 128 confirmed too. I lost a LC but the window said it was only wounded.

Graphical glitches

1. The road graphics do not coincide at the edges of tiles (on the diagonal direction), which results into roads that are not continuous. The roads should also be of brighter color and/or thicker, in order to be more visible.

2. The movement path of the units is drawn on a layer below the units and the power circles, resulting into it being hard to see sometimes. It should be always drawn on top.

3. A unit that is on the top row of squares of the map gets cut-off by the edge of the window. Perhaps you should leave some black margin above the map area.

4. For users that do not use the same colors as the windows default appearance, the area where you can toggle between traditional and market economy bears the color of the window, while the surrounding area bears the color of the windows default appearance. (I am using a blue-gray tone which makes the thing rather ugly).

5. The infraclasses names in the econ orders window which are too long, are partially hidden. Please rearrange the width of the columns in that window.

6. The TF box around a single bowmen unit is too narrow.

Game bugs

1. The Romans took Carthage, so the city is no more Carthaginian, it is Roman. However the citizens are still Carthaginian. Is this a bug, or it is referring to the Carthaginian Ethnic Group?

2. The next button on the events window does not show the events of the turn next to the current, it just vanishes the events window. Then the "show events" button does not function until after the "hide events" button is used.

3. Pathfinding doesn't seem to take advantage of roads.

4. Sometimes, when a TF is on the target square of it's previous path, the red dot is still there and the details window says that the unit "has orders", so they have to be cancelled before a new path is ordered. Perhaps the unit did not have enough movement points and it still "owes" some to complete it's path. If this is the problem, fix by crediting the "owed" points to the next move.

5. Not actually a bug, but, isn't it more sensible that the numbers on a unit path start from 1 instead of 0?

Petty feature requests

1. Please rewrite the manual! Right now the manual is in a mess! It doesn't have to have the fancy look that Chris Wilkinson gave. Just have it so that it is complete and even a fool can understand what's happening.

2. The TF box does not need to have a gray background. In demo 4 it had the flat ground for background. Please bring that back and make it so that the background copies the tile which is currently selected.

3. Isn't there a way to rearrange the TFs that are in the unit box? Units can be arranged at will inside TFs by assigning them one at a time, but when the TF is disbanded, they get scrambled again.

--------------------------------------------

Merry Xmas all!

	25-12-2001 18:59									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey Axi, Merry Christmas to you too

Thanks for all the detail bug info and suggestions. I will transfer them over to the lists when I next update them. I went ahead and fixed graphical glitch 5.

It will be a bit before many of these things are fixed. That is because I think its much more important to get tech and government in there than it is to fix blemishes in GUI elements that probably will change radically before the final Clash 1.0 anyway. So we will probably fix the really easy ones and the important ones (like pathfinding not using roads at least sometimes)

quote: The Romans took Carthage, so the city is no more Carthaginian, it is Roman. However the citizens are still Carthaginian. Is this a bug, or it is referring to the Carthaginian Ethnic Group?

There are Carthaginian EG citizens in a Roman city. Do you think there might be some unrest?

On the Manual... sorry but I've been stuck writing them. It is not something I like to do, and it shows. But just saying it sucks isn't going to make it better. What are the specific criticisms that you think are Most important to be implemented for the next go-around?

General Plea:

We could Really use someone to work on the manual. Requires ability to use an HTML editor, and capacity to spell and use grammar correctly . You would get advance versions of the demos, and earn the admiration of fellow team members! Must be able to run current demo.

If anyone is interested in writing a tutorial to go in the manual, that is a stand-alone job that would help out a lot on the learning curve for new players. Must be willing to read existing manual, so you know what things to show off in the tutorial. Must be able to run current demo.

We are also currently without Artists! That's why the new roads aren't perfect, since Gary just threw together a quickie version that would basically do the job. We need people for terrain, unit, and other graphics.

These are things that would Really Help Out! Let me know in this thread, or by email, if you're interested.

	29-12-2001 06:58									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Demo 6.1 is ready for download!

Demo 6.1 adds persistent screen positions of windows, saved in a "settings.xml" files, and better combat reports.

It is now the standard D6 download. If you already downloaded 6.0, you will need to download the zip again to get D6.1

The zip file is still Clash_d6.zip, but you'll know you have the right thing when you see the Demo 6.1 at the top of the main window.

	30-12-2001 00:34									#22
	Happy new year! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Bug report on the new "window settings memory":

1. The feature works only with the "clashwindow", "econorders" and "econinfo" windows. I was unable to make the game remember anything about the "taskforcedata", "mainmap", "information", "mapdetails" and "eventframe" windows, since the settings.xml seems to get reset at startup.

2. Sometimes not all settings are recorded. I have seen "eventframe" excluded (although the window was altered), I have seen "econorders" and "econinfo" excluded (when the windows are hidden), I have seen all 4 of the other frames excluded (although they were altered). The only window that is always included is "clashwindow".

3. Whenever I altered the settings.xml by inputting my own figures, the game refused to start, unless only the settings of "clashwindow" were altered, in which case the settings were used.

4. This one is a quite serious bug, since it interferes with the functionality of the game. The game spontaneously resets all settings of the "econorders" and econinfo" windows to 0, after using the "Hide economics information" button fot the first time. The first time this happened to me, it took me quite a while to find them and drag them back into shape. All the other times the button is used, it resets the window settings to the previous arrangement in memory. All windows seem to inherit the same arrangement. In order to store any new arrangement, each window has to be closed. I feel this is somehow related with the introduction of the settings.xml file, but I cannot remeber if such things were happening in demo 6.0.

5. Inside the game, I noticed that all econ windows have unique settings each and this is how it should be, since I might want to view them parallelly. In settings.xml however, only one setting for all is saved. Which one is used? Should 3 different settings be saved, one for each economy level?

Other comments and requests

1. You should have fixed the glitch in the units window, since the 6.1 release was all about windows settings.

2. Until now, I hadn't noticed that orders for mines exist only in those squares (and probably provinces) where the mines belong.

3. The reorder button seems to be reordering infraclasses by groups. Perhaps the expandable list idea mentioned somewhere above should be implemented, providing us with a much nicer representation of expenses.

4. I feel that it would be ergonomically better if we could have a merged window for both civ, province and square orders, where we could give orders side by side. Also an option to clear all orders on each level would be swell.

5. Today I saw the victory screen for the first time, as Rome against the Huns!

6. The battle report is okay for now - simple and clear. We shouldn't bother ourselves more until new features are added into combat.

7. Since we can save window settings now, how about adding the general settings (fog of war, hidden map, TF selection and whatever is added next) into that file?

8. Shouldn't there be "back" buttons in all the launch screens, along with the "exit" ones?

9. Have I mentioned that the map on the next demo must be "full", like it was in demos 3 and 4? That means almost all squares have population, are controlled by some civ and belong to a province. Unsettled squares must be settlable too, by combination of military presence and an investment similar to that of roads (infraclass + selection on the map). As it is, the game looks too much like civ2!

	05-01-2002 06:05									#23
	Wtf? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Where is Mark's post gone?

This has probably something to do with that server move...

	05-01-2002 06:07									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hi Axi!

I posted this about 24 hours ago, much neater, but the server switch ate it Fortunately I had a crude backup, which I'll post here now.

quote:

Originally posted by axi
Bug report on the new "window settings memory":...

Sorry! You are right, its all screwed up. It was working fine (aside from some possible minor glitches) when we put together 6.1. My guess is that an old file ended up in the release. As you say, #4 is very serious and we will have to fix that one asap. On 5, I guess they could be independently set, although that is less vital than the other issues. When the big issues are fixed we'll put out a patch.

One thing you Can try temporarily due to some insights Laurent had on this bug. Delete the settings file (or save it someplace else) When settings starts fresh make very sure not to move anything very close to the left or top of the main window. It doesn't need to be far, just leave a little border of grey. Let me know if that helps on the worst problems.

quote:

1. You should have fixed the glitch in the units window, since the 6.1 release was all about windows settings.


Which one? You made several requests and bug reports about the Units window. In general, IMO small fixes for GUI issues that aren't Really annoying for many people will generally have to wait a bit. I think 3 and 4 fall under this category.

Right now I think the vital thing is to see if the game models basically work. Until we have Tech, Government and Diplomacy (and AI) in at some small level of implementation IMO our coding resources are best spent elsewhere. So although I'm keeping track of all the requests for future discussion/implementation many won't be solved unless there is universal clamor for them. However, If you state the case clearly there is always a chance that the coder responsible will feel its important for them also, and just do it anyway .

quote:

7. Since we can save window settings now, how about adding the general settings (fog of war, hidden map, TF selection and whatever is added next) into that file?


Good suggestion! But saving a few clicks per game perhaps isn't the essential thing at this point.

quote:

9. Have I mentioned that the map on the next demo must be "full", like it was in demos 3 and 4? That means almost all squares have population, are controlled by some civ and belong to a province. Unsettled squares must be settlable too, by combination of military presence and an investment similar to that of roads (infraclass + selection on the map). As it is, the game looks too much like civ2!


Agree! Most of this (the top half) was supposed to be a D6 feature but because of code architecture changes it was impractical to implement it right then. It is first on my D7 (and beyond) big feature list, that I'll post soon.

Thanks for the detailed report!

	06-01-2002 06:30									#25
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Hi All:

Gary has fashioned a fix for the persistent window position feature not working. I have it, but I can't upload the fix because my FTP access to our web site at Apolyton is broken. Presumably related to the server switch. I have sent it to Axi already (though it may be an old email acct.) If anyone else wants it, email me and I will reply with the zip attached.

-Mark

	06-01-2002 17:15									#26
	So THAT's what it is! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Downloading it right now...

	06-01-2002 23:52									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I suggest that you put the fixed version (demo 6.1.1) up in your own homepage and post a link in this thread.

If I knew more about web authoring, I would take the job, but guess what, I'm worthless at it too.

I tried the fixed demo and it works all right for me. Bug 4 mentioned in my post above still persists.

	07-01-2002 18:18									#28
	New version of Demo -- 6.12 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Markos was kind enough to put the file up for me. The 6.12 version has a fix to Axi's bug 4 on hiding econ screens.

Download Demo 6.12

Only download this directly if you have read the download page on the web site (url at top of this thread) And Followed The Instructions! (The instructions should also have lead to the correct 6.12 download but they don't because the file got renamed from *.ZIP to *.zip so the case sensitive server thinks its two different urls)

So download this one, not the link off the page until further notice. If this one shows a deadlink, try the one on the page and verify that it contains a file called clash_d612.jar.

Sorry for the confusion, doing the best we can under the circumstances!

-Mark

Last edited by Mark_Everson on 07-01-2002 at 18:34

	08-01-2002 01:38									#29
	Got spare money?

How have we jumped from sub-release 1 to sub-release 12? What will people say when subrelease 2 comes out? Then 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and oops.

Cheers

	08-01-2002 01:56									#30
	Demo 6.1.2 works OK Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Bug #4 is history.

Perhaps numbering should be this way:
This version is v.6.1.2, as the previous one was v.6.1.1 The first number represents a new stage of the game design, the middle number represents a new feature, the last a bugfix. Remember how v.6 used to be called v.5.1

I just noticed that Mark has updated his bug list.