13-12-2001 23:29									#1
	My Conclusions about the Firaxis-Community relations Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I haven't posted on the Civ 3 forum in a while because I found myself just running in circles. Every threat I posted on turned into an argument about the merits (or lack thereof) of Firaxis. I would get offended at not having a question answered or something, and would spend a long time rehashing the same arguments again and again. I see know that guys like Libertarian, who was actually my main opponent in these arguments, now sees it like I did. Instead of getting frustrated, I realize now, perhaps people should just chill and be patient. It's clear that Civ 3 did not live up to many of our expectations, and we don't get all of our questions answered, but it's not a big deal in the end. We shouldn't take these things personally and just realize that, after all, it is just a game, and after all, these are just gaming companies with humans running them. It is useless and stressful to get upset if you don't get a question answered or Firaxis won't tell you about a feature you're interested in. Just be patient and see what happens. I have not bought the game yet, but there is no sense in getting impatient about it. I'm just going to wait and see if the problems we brought up are addressed, and if not, I won't buy it--it's not a big deal in the end.

	13-12-2001 23:32									#2
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That's pretty much the place I've come to. I'm in sort of a numb who-gives-a-dookey phase right now. Nice to hear from you again, Hoek.

	13-12-2001 23:40									#3
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In the suuuuuun maaaaaaaaary maaaaaaaaary marrrrrrried burrrrriiiiieeeeed,yeah yeah yeah yeah

sorry, i'm listening to Nirvana

Yeah, I just couldn't spend all that time saying the same thing over and over again. You had two kinds of people: people who spent all their time defending Firaxis and people who spent all their time criticizing Firaxis. Its just not worth all that time and energy, ya know?

	14-12-2001 01:54									#4
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I think a lot of people, including Libertarian, are upset with Fireaxis not because of the game's quality, but because of their silence on certain issues. I know it bothers me that they'll answer questions about Corruption and whatever, but have yet to acknowledge that players want Stacked Movement, along with many other issues.

Any sort of response would probably suffice for me. Even if they said 'We realize you all want Stacked Movement, but we chose not to include it because (insert reason)" or if they just let us know whether it is a possibility in the future. I don't care whether I LIKE the answer, I just want one, and I think many other players feel the same way. If they're going to respond to some issues which are important to players, they should respond to others as well.

Fireaxis: I LOVE THE GAME and play it all the time.

but ...

Fireaxis: If you address some things, but not others, I will eventually find another game that treats the players better (already leaning towards CTP2 or Empire Earth). I get the impression I am not speaking just for myself here.

	14-12-2001 02:42									#5
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That's about the size of it. The wall of silence is ominous and frankly weird. It leaves us wallowing in ignorance.

And I hate ignorance.

	14-12-2001 02:51									#6
	they already mentioned stack Full PM-box? Change here!

"13-12-2001 20:54

...whatever, but have yet to acknowledge that players want Stacked Movement, along with many other issues..."

vs firaxis'...

" 13-12-2001 17:13




Jeff would probably be your man. However, if you've read some of my pre-patch posts, it's highly doubtful we'll make a statement about any features until we are 100% sure the feature will be added or not. A more likely response is going to be "thanks, we know you want stacked combat [he changed that to movement] and we'll take that into consideration."

I think we've learned our lesson as far as speculating about potential features before we're sure they'll make it into a product or not.

Dan
"

notice the time stamp. hehe

	14-12-2001 02:59									#7
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Lib,

It should be fairly obvious that we've been burned before when we've talked about things that we hoped to do but were ultimately unable to. I believe that has a lot to do with the way we deal with uncertainty now: we really prefer not to comment on something until it becomes certain.

For better or worse, a lot of people interpret "maybe" to mean "yes", and then expectations quickly get set. As I'm sure you're aware, for some, unmet expectations can lead to anger, and bitterness, and this just generally creates a bad situation that we'd rather avoid.

Dan

	14-12-2001 03:17									#8
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Dan,

I think the decision to avoid commitment — or even the appearance of commitment — to something that you aren't sure you can do is a wise one. Certainly, I can understand that a lot of people might misinterpret a maybe to be a yes. They get their hopes up, and then they become angry when they think you've renegged.

That said, I don't think that what you've decided to do in lieu of saying maybe is wise at all. You've decided to ignore people, and rest assured that nothing will piss off more people than that.

I believe that there is yet another way that you can deal with people that does not commit you to make promises and that does not alienate.

Take, for example, the groundswell of people clamoring for some relief from late-game tedium. Clearly, promising group movement is not the right thing to do if your developers haven't yet determined whether they can. But honestly, turning a deaf ear is even worse. Consider these example responses to this issue:

Bad Way

Hey, guys! I don't see why we can't do the stack movement thing. Looks easy enough to me. I'll bring it up in a meeting.

Worse Way

Sorry, can't hear you or see you.

Better Way

Wow! It sure is clear to me that stack movement is something you guys really want bad! I don't know whether that's something we can do or not, so no promises. But rest assured that we have heard you! Please keep those kinds of ideas coming! Thanks!

-----

Would you agree?

Lib

	14-12-2001 03:25									#9
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Lib,

I agree with you in theory, but in practice, even your "better way" gets people's expectation levels rising. It's something I've seen time and time again here and other forums.

In a perfect world, perhaps there would be free, frank, unfettered communication between game developers and fans, but history has proven that notion to be fraught with peril.


Dan

	14-12-2001 03:26									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Lib, It should be fairly obvious that we've been burned before when we've talked about things that we hoped to do but were ultimately unable to. I believe that has a lot to do with the way we deal with uncertainty now: we really prefer not to comment on something until it becomes certain. For better or worse, a lot of people interpret "maybe" to mean "yes", and then expectations quickly get set. As I'm sure you're aware, for some, unmet expectations can lead to anger, and bitterness, and this just generally creates a bad situation that we'd rather avoid. Dan

Hey, Dan...

That leads right into something which I've been wanting an answer to.

The following is a quote from the official CivIII website, "ASK THE CIV TEAM - 01/19/01 EDITION":

There has also been some concern that because we are showing animated units on the website, scenario creators will be forced to learn 3D animation programs in order to create units; we can safely say that's not the case. Scenario authors who want to create and use animated units will certainly be able to, but those who wish to use Civ II style single-frame units will be able to do so.

OK, that doesn't sound like "maybe" to me. So, here are the questions:

1) Is this possible today?
2) If the answer to #1 is yes, how (it doesn't seem to be documented in the manual or readme)?
3) If the answer to #1 is no, will it be possible in the final "now the editor is as done as its gonna get" version?
4) If the answer to #1 & #3 are both no, why not (keeping in mind that the above quote cannot reasonably be interpreted as "maybe")?

	14-12-2001 03:43									#11
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Bill,

If I'm not careful I may actually break my own rules here and start speculating

The basic gist of that answer (and what our thinking was) is that given some FLC-making tools, a mod maker could use a single image to create single-frame FLCs. This way the game graphics engine wouldn't need to be modified to deal with static images, and modders wouldn't be forced to do animations if they didn't want to.

So the only missing piece of this puzzle is our FLC-making tool, which is frankly pretty rough around the edges right now. The only reason we haven't released it yet is because it's not the most user-friendly piece of software. It was written years ago by a former employee and it tends to crash if you click where you shouldn't, that sort of thing. I *THINK* we still intend to clean the program up and release it (see, now you went and made me speculate ) but I'm not sure when.

Luckily, using Moenir's FLICSter program, you can do FLC's right now, including single-frame FLCs.

Dan

	14-12-2001 04:02									#12
	To Dan with Respect Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Would it be possible to get some definitive "NO! No way, not now, not ever!" responses to some of the posts. I personally would like some feedback, even negative, on what I have posted under the advanced governments thread. I know that it might then spark "but why not?" responses but those would replace the venom being spat out about the general silence.

BTW - I am enjoying playing CivIII but just want the series to evolve into the ultimate TBS game for all time.

Deornwulf - The English Teacher

Have a cool yule!

	14-12-2001 04:33									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Luckily, using Moenir's FLICSter program, you can do FLC's right now, including single-frame FLCs.

It has been written that Civ3 uses a non-standard FLC file format and off-the-shelf graphics programs don't support it. Is that bum dope?

Also, is Moenir's FLICSter program:
1) Freeware/fully functional shareware available on the net
2) Crippleware available on the net but costs <$50 to register
3) A commercial program costing <$50.
4) A commercial program or crippleware costing $50-$100.
5) A professional tool costing big $$$ that casual modders just won't have.

You know, the original quote's "CivII style" pretty much implies (if admittedly doesn't explicitly promise) a file format that common 2D graphics editors do, like GIF, BMP, etc...

	14-12-2001 05:43									#14
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was it too much to ask for scenarios in civ3?

	14-12-2001 06:22									#15
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As Lib has already pointed out, there is something called GOOD PR between the "Promise Heaven" and "Ignore You Completely" categories.

Firaxis: Check into it. Good companies do it all the time.

	14-12-2001 06:24									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS For better or worse, a lot of people interpret "maybe" to mean "yes", and then expectations quickly get set. As I'm sure you're aware, for some, unmet expectations can lead to anger, and bitterness, and this just generally creates a bad situation that we'd rather avoid. Dan

I'm not an apologist for game companies, but one has to admit the truth of what Dan says. Most companies act this way, and for the reasons Dan said. I think the comments in this thread show they are trying and do care, but hands are tied. I can understand this.

But of course the bottom line is still what ends up on our HD. I, for one, only see long term value in this game if I can get creative with it making scenarios and enjoying the creativity of others. Endlessly whomping the French ain't going to hack it.

Otherwise, I would not want to waste my time playing this, and if there would be anger and bitterness on my part it would be because a decent editor is not released (or released too late to matter) and my time playing was wasted.

There was only enough editor to say there was on on the box, and I can't say I appreciate the sleight of hand. Combined with a lack of assurances of a full editor being developed this is not good - all of my $50 worked just fine and the company doesn't have to wait for me to release the last $10.50 (can't say when, I've been burned promising money in the past, you know).

I understand the problems and I also understand they are all of Firaxis' making. Perhaps they're unavoidable, nothing worth doing in this world is problem-free, but I have to admit it bothers me that the only possibility Firaxis will admit to right now is one of failure.

	14-12-2001 06:24									#17
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And as for this entire "Well, we've been burned before" pile of garbarge, why did you get burned?

Because you didn't communicate properly.

And your stellar plan now?

Not to communicate.

Brilliant.

	14-12-2001 07:26									#18
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 And as for this entire "Well, we've been burned before" pile of garbarge, why did you get burned?

Ooooh Oooh! Me! Me!

Could it be because people took pre-release hopes to be final version promises?

If firaxis would have said: "We aren't sure, but we would like to get stacked movement for the final version" everyone would have been disappointed when it wasn't there. If you think they wouldn't have been, you don't know the average gamer very well.

If I was in their position, I wouldn't tell us anything either. There is no possible way to please most of the people here. They can't enjoy a game unless everything is the way they want it, and can't wait to find out what changes are in the works.

Yay Dan. Yay Firaxis. Maybe people here will figure out how the world works now. Support Firaxis, give them suggestions in a respectful manner, and dont demand they acknowledge you. Firaxis will be more willing to work with us all.

I'm frankly shocked they haven't just given up on Civ3 altogether. Everyone seems to think "they suck" and that they can't code, are greedy devil-spawn, lazy, liars, untrustworthy, and probably don't recycle. All because they refuse to tell people things that I would expect they would be prevented from sharing due to an NDA.

It really is like dealing with 15 year olds.

	14-12-2001 08:34									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Barnacle Bill It has been written that Civ3 uses a non-standard FLC file format and off-the-shelf graphics programs don't support it. Is that bum dope? Also, is Moenir's FLICSter program: 1) Freeware/fully functional shareware available on the net 2) Crippleware available on the net but costs <$50 to register 3) A commercial program costing <$50. 4) A commercial program or crippleware costing $50-$100. 5) A professional tool costing big $$$ that casual modders just won't have. You know, the original quote's "CivII style" pretty much implies (if admittedly doesn't explicitly promise) a file format that common 2D graphics editors do, like GIF, BMP, etc...

Bill,

Our FLCs have some custom header information added to them that doesn't always jive well with FLC-reading programs, and 3rd party programs don't have the ability to write out this custom header information.

The FLICster program was written by a fan called Moeniir. He and a few other folks asked us for info on how our FLC structure differed from "standard" FLC code, and we gave him the information he needed to write the app.

To my knowledge it's entirely free.

See the relevant thread on Civfanatics:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=10208


Dan

	14-12-2001 08:58									#20
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I've been in a very similar situation as these Firaxis guys. I worked for an internet company (now out of business, no surprise) that offered a service at a cost to thousands of people. We created a Forum of our own where we could touch base with customers, not only because answers would be available to everyone who visits the forum, but also because we wanted to promote a community (like this one).

I was the voice of that forum for a little over a year. If people had a complaint, issue, or wish list for our service, they posted it in the forum. Of course not everything they asked for was feasable from a development standpoint. So would I just ignore that request, yet answer others? Of course not! If I did such a thing the community would inevitably turn against us, sort of like what we're seeing here at Apolyton with Firaxis. I would answer honestly and people were satisfied with that. In fact, people appreciated me taking the time to keep them in the loop. It showed that I (we) did care.

Of course these were our own forums and that means we were obligated to have a presence there. Firaxis has no such obligation here. In fact, if Dan, Soren, or whoever had never posted here, probably nothing would be thought of it. But since you all do post here on occasion, that tells us that you do indeed care about us, the customers. You also create an obligation to us in many respects. You cannot provide customer service on a handful of issues and pretend the others don't exist. Your customers will realize this and they will be upset. If enough people are interested in an issue, just answer honestly.

For example:

Apolyton Poster: Can we have stacked movement?

Firaxis: Currently Civ3 is not programmed to handle stacked movement, so we really can't add it via a patch. This might be something for the next release or an expansion.

(I am not speculating that this is the case. I just made up an answer that Firaxis might see as being unpopular.)

Sure, this type of answer would be disappointing to me and other players, but if it's the truth then how could it possibly hurt you. People will stop asking about this certain issue and either a) pick another important issue, or b) move on and enjoy the game. You are human and you've created a great game, regardless of whether is has stacked movement. I don't see how you could lose.

	14-12-2001 10:30									#21
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gachnar:

Sorry that you like to jump to conclusions. Pretty hard landing sometimes, I guess. Mind telling me what I'm saying again? I suppose you could save some time and not look quite like a whining girl and actually read what I said, but I suppose that's no fun for you, eh?

	14-12-2001 11:19									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by dissent I was the voice of that forum for a little over a year. If people had a complaint, issue, or wish list for our service, they posted it in the forum.

dissent, I do have to say if you weren't in the game business you have no idea what it is like. I'll bet the volume at Firaxis is so high right now that the off switch looks REAL tempting.

MarkG will tell you I'm sure there is nothing like a popular gaming forum, except maybe politics. The unreality of it can be staggering. If it doesn't have anything to do with games or Democrats you don't get any yin26's running around, not to mention the ones who chase him.

	14-12-2001 11:24									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

So another hops on the bandwagon?

Once again, I give you the 'Read Basic English' challenge: What have I argued for in my posts in this thread? Explain it to me.

	14-12-2001 11:55									#24
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 So another hops on the bandwagon? Once again, I give you the 'Read Basic English' challenge: What have I argued for in my posts in this thread? Explain it to me.

you talking to me?

	14-12-2001 12:10									#25
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Depends. Care to explain what you mean by 'yin26's running around'?

	14-12-2001 12:42									#26
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Yin: Why do so many people seem to HATE you??? I only read the forums for Civ 3, are you saying or doing other stuff at other forums that is completely different than your attitude in the Civ 3 forums?

BTW, I think you are right in suggesting that Firaxis needs some help in the PR department.

	14-12-2001 12:46									#27
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Depends.

you would know. I didn't mean anything other you are here and do what you do, as are the ones who chase you, the bandwagon I think you called them.

Multiplied by many others, it is what is peculiar about this place, these places in general.

Now what was that meaning you would have me discern?

I guess that's my point, people with meanings don't hang around business software forums. Nor do bandwagons.

	14-12-2001 12:49									#28
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bigfree1:

LOL! That's a fantastic question...hmmm. I have my theories. No, I'm not posting other places. I suppose I have been branded as the 'anti-Civ3' guy or the 'anti-Firaxis' guy, so it's easy for people to jump on me. Hey, I don't mind people blasting me, my only request is that they actually understand what's posted first.

Too much to ask.

	14-12-2001 12:51									#29
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jackshot:

I seem to barely understand what you are saying ... but no matter. Welcome.

	14-12-2001 13:00									#30
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Dan and Lib: what do you think of this idea-use email or private messages for speculative issues. This seems reasonable to me since it wouldn't broadcast tentative plans that could backfire on Firaxis since it would only be an answer to one person. If someone asks "Could you tell me such and such about multiplayer," Dan could ask "could you send me an email or pm" and then answer the question that way. That seems like a good way to smooth things over while respecting Firaxis's need for a bit of secrecy.