16-12-2001 18:11									#1
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Which of the EU countries poses the biggest obstacle to the EU, be it economically, politically, population in general, etc....

Some things to help you decide:

• Greece, Portugal and Spain are the poorest countries in the EU (GDP per capita).
  
• The UK, Sweden and Denmark have not participated in the Euro.
  
• The French are arrogant and obstinant - demanding things be done in French and being the most "illegal" EU country when complying with EU laws.
  
• Germany is seen as too dominant and can throw the EU out of balance if not kept in check.
  
• The UK "didn't fight two world wars to be ruled by the Europeans".
  

	16-12-2001 18:17									#2
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• Italy - Ruled by corrupt media mongul who's main concern is making laws to protect himself.

	16-12-2001 18:25									#3
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Please, don't get me started on the EU!

However, I think the most anti-EU countries are the UK and Denmark, for different reasons each.

The most pro-EU country is definitely Belgium.

	16-12-2001 18:46									#4
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Ireland, because they will do everything in their power to hold up reform of the CAP.

	16-12-2001 19:04									#5
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France. They disobey EU laws (by not lifting the ban on British beef). Though the UK hasn't joined the Euro, at least we obey the EU...

	16-12-2001 19:31									#6
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Spain is catching up rapidly with the rest of Europe. $18,000 per capita and growing fast. We still have an awful 12% or so unemployment rate, that is falling... more slowly because of the world-wide recession.

	16-12-2001 19:59									#7
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The UK I think, because of its size. Denmark, however, has reservations about participation on no less than four very central issues - the economic and monetary union, European defence policy co-operation, regulations about union citizenship and expanded judicial collaboration.

(Edit: I wonder who voted for Luxembourg)

	16-12-2001 20:49									#8
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quote: Spain is catching up rapidly with the rest of Europe. $18,000 per capita and growing fast. We still have an awful 12% or so unemployment rate, that is falling... more slowly because of the world-wide recession.

GDP per capita, 1999 (www.geohive.com):

Portugal: 15,300
Greece: 13,900
Spain: 17,300
Ireland: 20,300
Netherlands: 23,100

GDP per capita, 2000 (www.cia.gov):

Portugal: 15,800
Greece: 17,200
Spain: 18,000
Ireland: 21,600
Netherlands: 24,400

Unemployement, 2000 (www.cia.gov)

Portugal: 4.3%
Greece: 11.3%
Spain: 14%
Ireland: 4.1%
Netherlands: 2.6%

GDP (PPP) growth rate, 1999 (www.geohive.com)

Portugal: -
Greece: 21.92%
Spain: 6.39%
Ireland: -
Netherlands: 6.38%

GDP growth rate, 2000 (www.cia.gov)

Portugal: 2.7%
Greece: 3.8%
Spain: 4%
Ireland: 9.8%
Netherlands: 4%


In what ways exactly is Spain "catching up fast"? And where did you get the 12% unemployement rate from?

	16-12-2001 21:41									#9
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4% is a decent growth rate compared with the EU standard 2.5%. However it is now 1.9% compared to a .7% of the rest of the EU.

12% was the latest figure.

Why the heck are you against the Spanish and the progress they have made? Do me a favor shutup, and read the CIA factbook description. We had a bad economy.

	16-12-2001 21:49									#10
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Personally I put Greece, Portugal and Spain at the top of my list.

Portugal for general poverty

Greece for unemployment and whatever trouble they're going to kick up if the Turks end up joining

Spain because it will piss somebody here off.

	16-12-2001 23:19									#11
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It depends on how you define an "obstacle"... obstacle to what? Integration? Efficiency? Reform?

Anyway, my twopenneth...

Reform of the CAP is essential given the ridiculous percentage of the EU budget it takes up. I don't think it is possible to overprioritise this. Problem children here are the (relatively) poorer countries who are net beneficiaries of CAP (Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece) and those who are scared stiff of their own farmers (France, possibly Italy?).

As far as integration goes, the UK is probably (and quite rightly!) the biggest obstacle. Due to size and influence, a strong EU (and probably a strong Euro) requires British participation to achieve full potential (this isn't national ego-massaging - the same would go for Germany or France, maybe Italy).

If Greece keeps detaining fellow EU-nationals on mickey-mouse charges, then it'll swiftly become not only a problem child but also a laughing stock.

And yes, France seem to want everything done "their way" and have the potential to cause the whole thing to fall flat on it's face sooner or later.

	16-12-2001 23:48									#12
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Spain because it will piss somebody here off.

Horsey, donŽt quit your day job.

	16-12-2001 23:59									#13
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Everyone but Belgium.

Because everyone picks on Belgium.

	17-12-2001 00:16									#14
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I chose UK and Belgium.

UK because it's world famous for being an obstacle to EU development.

Belgium, because I just don't like the country

	17-12-2001 00:32									#15
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Andre :


anyway , everyone knows that EU is just an evil scheme by Belgium to take over the continent . notice that even now , if analists talk about the EU policy , they say 'Brussel's' position on the issue .

makes you thing...

	17-12-2001 00:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti anyway , everyone knows that EU is just an evil scheme by Belgium to take over the continent . notice that even now , if analists talk about the EU policy , they say 'Brussel's' position on the issue

After 500 years they're tired of it being the other way 'round.

	17-12-2001 01:13									#17
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My name is not Andre

	17-12-2001 02:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion My name is not Andre

It is now, due to a new EU directive from Brussels.

	17-12-2001 02:38									#19
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So the commonly used form of Andreas is now turned into the EU standard of Andre in order to apply to Belgian rules?

	17-12-2001 02:45									#20
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The correct increase rate of GDP for Greece in 2001 is 4.2%.

Please don't go to american sites for info about EU they get it wrong. Also, according to CNN we are not part of the eurozone...


The most problematic country used to be Greece. It was refered to as the "Black Sheep" of Europe. While there are some merits to that assessment it is also true that Greece was used as a scapegoat for Europe's one choices.

A clear example of this was Greece's veto to Turkey's entrance to the EU. When Greece withdrew it, it became aparent that Europe was not ready for Turkey (and vice versa). Up untill then everyone accused Greece of hindering Turkey's europinization

EiF, you are not an imperial power anymore. The way you try to push your weight to smaller countries is revolting. Thank God noone here in Greece cared or knew about the brits and the rocus you caused. We have far more improtant things to be concerned about.

And although I concede that the spy charges were too much, the planespotters DID violate greek laws TWICE by taking pics in forbiden areas. The dirt you threw on Greece (a country 6 times smaller than you) will be remembered. It is also a good thing for the greek government that it didn't yield to any kind of pressure from you.


The most problematic coutnry is of course the UK. It hindmers integration by creating too many variable geometry clauses in the proccess. It gives americans a base to spy on the EU by providing vital infastructure for the functioning odf their Ecthelion system and it acts lie a loose cannon in many subjects. (as their recent initiatives for the euro army).


Greece is not going to pose problems in Turkey joining the EU if Turkey becomes "human". Since humanity is a prerequisitive for entry I don't see what problems we could cause.

BTW, the money given by the structrulat funds are nothing compared to what we have to pay for defence, while all of the other countries don't have this problem.


edit: oh and something else. This forum is dominated by americans and english. You can't really ask these people to give an asessment about the EU. They are far away for everything it stands for.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 17-12-2001 at 03:03

	17-12-2001 03:19									#21
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KH :

well , Andreas it is . But the Valon French of Belgium would prefer it as 'Andre' . You want to have those special benefits , right ? ( thank god I have a neutral sounding name ... I can be American , European , Arab , Russian , Caucasian ( a person from the Caucasus ) , and even ... an Israeli Jew ...

seriously though , I thought that I would simply shorten your name a bit ... sorry... Andreas.....


now for the real Issue . am I using too many '...' in my posts?

	17-12-2001 03:34									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Thue Italy - Ruled by corrupt media mongul who's main concern is making laws to protect himself.

and very right wing,

Austria has Heider too (or his party), but I haven't heard he has been to much trouble to anyone in particular. But in Italy the foreigners are going out of favour quickly.

	17-12-2001 03:42									#23
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* As far as integration goes, the UK is probably (and quite rightly!) the biggest obstacle. Due to size and influence, a strong EU (and probably a strong Euro) requires British participation to achieve full potential (this isn't national ego-massaging - the same would go for Germany or France, maybe Italy).

In all candor, bullsh!t.

britain uses its influence just to massage its bruised ego. It is the biggest obstacle to peace and prosperity for Europe.

	17-12-2001 03:45									#24
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave and very right wing, Austria has Heider too (or his party), but I haven't heard he has been to much trouble to anyone in particular. But in Italy the foreigners are going out of favour quickly.

So you haven't heard about Haider's decision to fight against a constituional law-court decision which requires each town in Carinthia with >10%slovene population to have bilingual signs and names. He wants to fight it by cutting all subventions to slovene organizations and said he won't allow anything that "harms" the carinthian population (what does he mean by this? ) The last time the state tried to put through the constitution in this aspect in '72 led to the demolition of the bilingual signs...
But we austrians have learned from history

	17-12-2001 03:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Greece is not going to pose problems in Turkey joining the EU if Turkey becomes "human". Since humanity is a prerequisitive for entry I don't see what problems we could cause.

paktis don't tell me that you would not be scared of Turkey with it's 100million people joining, and the freedom of movement. Turks are keen on moving abroad anyway. Soon you would become a Greek minority in a Turkish Greece.

That is the problem when you have such cultures joining together. The only similar problems I could forsee is for Ireland Danemark and in some sense the Benelux countries when 10 million Poles (out of fourty) arrive But they still have a fairly similar culture.

However Turks are another proposition in large numbers whether EU likes it or not.

It is OK if a society is changed slowly, so you wouldn't see yourself getting generally good Turkish customs over time and all troubelsome differences would dissapear, but a huge number in one generation (20 years or less) huh.

I'd say that someone in your government better thinks of that.

Wasn't that the reason that the Irish protested in the vote for Euro expansion. They became even less important member, size wise, and immigration wise they cannot stop an influx of foreigners (or EU citizens) legally. I mean who cares for Brits, French , Spanish or Germans because they like where they are, and 2 million Germans will not go to Ireland to find work.

Most likely there won't be 2 million Poles either , but 2 million Turks in Greece. I can see that already. Even if you don't like them (nation wise), but you have work.

	17-12-2001 03:49									#26
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 In all candor, bullsh!t. britain uses its influence just to massage its bruised ego. It is the biggest obstacle to peace and prosperity for Europe.

Thats crap. It is just felt that Europe's interests are different to British interest.

Convince British people otherwise, through greater education of the European situation, and this would change.

It would for one get rid of this "Metric martyrs" crap.

	17-12-2001 03:53									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III So you haven't heard about Haider's decision to fight against a constituional law-court decision which requires each town in Carinthia with >10%slovene population to have bilingual signs and names. He wants to fight it by cutting all subventions to slovene organizations and said he won't allow anything that "harms" the carinthian population (what does he mean by this? ) The last time the state tried to put through the constitution in this aspect in '72 led to the demolition of the bilingual signs... But we austrians have learned from history

Well in UK I don't hear of that, and I missed the croatian papers (over the net) on that day. I was suprised anyway that I haven't heard anything from him even though he had such a nasty appereance when his party became big.

The best part is that they are Slovenes and three times smaller than you, and have been living there forever. Obviously he is afraid that the people there don't suddenly realise that they want to pay their taxes to Ljubljana, because of bilingual signs.

It is not only you who don't learn from history, it is the majority of the world, it just takes time for a society to show it's ugly face.

	17-12-2001 03:55									#28
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Onefoot,

I don't think Turkey will ever join the EU. Hopefully you and I will live many years (Allah willing ahem) and you will see that I am correct.

It is very analyzed here. Turkey will never join.

In the unlikely event that it does, Turks will head off by millions in other more developped EU countries.

	17-12-2001 04:03									#29
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Onefoot, I don't think Turkey will ever join the EU. Hopefully you and I will live many years (Allah willing ahem) and you will see that I am correct. It is very analyzed here. Turkey will never join. In the unlikely event that it does, Turks will head off by millions in other more developped EU countries.

well most likely, but that is one of 'quiet' EU problems that politicains don't speak because they want to be politically correct, and you have recially motivated violence quite often, and right wing parties (Italy, and Austria even in government) getting more votes because mainstream acts as if they don't care. And Danemark now, who is next, Germany or Tories in UK? Though even if William Hague had won (the most rightist Tory ever?), they wouldn't be even close or in the same league as Italy and Austria are today.

	17-12-2001 04:06									#30
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In short Europe wants Turkey close - but not too close.

The best turkey can hope for is a close relationship with the EU.

In the recent EU leaders summit, the EU accepted ALL of the greek positions on immigration. All of them. Most of them had to do with blocking access to millions upon millions of people that try to enter Greece any way possible. (from albania and fyrom to turkey and pakistan to wherever).

some of these measures are:

_one uniform way to guard borders that will be considered EU borders (and money to do it)

_one uniform way to send people back once they somehow made it

and many more.

the greek positions on these matetrs and the whole text was accepted by all the 14 other countries because they realize that the problem is VERY acute.

As I said I want openess to immigrants but we can take so many.