19-12-2001 05:33									#1
	Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 4) Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Finally we're moving on. Thanks to all who compiled this lists, I'd have been completely lost without your hard work!

Poles

Names: Poland, the Poles, Polish
Ruler/Title: Kazimierz Wielki / King
Leaders: Batory, Czartoryski, Pilsudski, Koniecpolski, Potocki, Zolkiewski, Sobieski, Chodkiewicz, Boleslaw Smialy, Sikorski, Wisniowiecki, Kosciuszko, Anders, J.Poniatowski, Czarniecki, Jagiello, Zawisza Czarny, Lech Walesa
UU: Hussar (4/2/3) replaces Knight?; requires Horses?
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism, Republic
Cities:
Warsaw
Olsztyn
Bialystok
Wroclaw
Gdansk
Sczcecin
Torun
Bydgoszcz
Gorzow
Zielona Gora
Poznan
Lodz
Lublin
Kielce
Wroclaw
Opole
Katowice
Krakow
Rzeszow.
Koszalin
Slupsk
Elblag
Gniezno
Lwow
Suwalki
Pila
Wloclawek
Plock
Ciechanow
Lomza
Konin
Siedlce
Biala Podlaska
Leszno
Kalisz
Sieradz
Skierniewice
Piotrkow Trybunalski
Radom
Chelm
Legnica
Jelenia Gora
Walbrzych
Czestochowa
Tarnobrzeg
Tarnow
Zamosc
Przemysl
Bielsko Biala
Nowy Sacz
Krosno
Gdynia
Grudziadz
Bytom
Zabrze
Gliwice
Ruda Slaska
Rybnik
Tychy
Chorzow
Sosnowiec
Jastrzebie Zdroj
Dabrowa Gornicza




Names: Ethiopia, the Ethiopians, Ethiopian
Ruler/Title: Ezana/ Abuna
Leaders: Kaleb, Wahsi, Yekuno Amlak, Lalibela, Zara Yakob, Amda Siyon, Iyasu I, Menelik II, Haile Selassie
UU: Sarwe(2/2/1) replaces Spearman
Shunned/Favored Gov.: [color]Communism, Monarchy[/color]
Cities:
Aksum
Adulis
Matara
Adefa
Gondar
Zeila
Addis Ababa
Berbera
Sawakin
Harer
Yeha
Gabaza
Dahlak Kebir
Samidi
Adwa
Ku'bar
Ankober
Zayla`
Aydhab
Weqro
Ham
Tekondo
Qohayto
Addi Dahno
Henzat
Cherqos Agula
Degum
Hawelti
Melazo
Meroe
Aden
Sana
Marib
Dongola
Soba
Weyna Dega
Mar'adé
Genbita
Kassala
Hanhita
Aganiti
Nazret
Qeneda
Tchika-Beret
Roha
Aseb
Dese
Massawa/Mitsiwa
Asmara/Asmera
Addi Grammaten
Kaskase
Feqya
Zala-Bet-Makeda
Etchmara
Gulo-Makeda
Haghero-Deragweh
Dergouah
Hawzien
Kwiha
Welwel
Anza
Wuchate Golo
Edage Hamus
Addi Galamo
Nasi
Arato
Rora Laba
Dicdic
Shimbra Kure
Metema
Dogali

Koreans
Names: Korea, the Koreans, Korean
Ruler/Title: Sejong/ Daewang
Leaders: Tangun, Yi Soonshin, Gwanggeto, Hyo Jong, Dae Joyoung, Yi Song-gye, Kim Yu-Shin, Ulchi Mundok
UU: Kobukson(3/3/3) requires Iron, Saltpeterreplaces Frigate
Shunned/Favored Gov.: [color]Communism, Monarchy[/color]
Cities:
Seoul-shi
P'yeongyang-shi
Inch'eon
Daejeon-shi
Daegu-shi
Kwangju-shi
Pusan-shi
Ulsan-shi
Namp'o-shi
Kaeseong-shi
Kyeongju-shi
Chaeju-shi
Ch'angwon-shi
Cheonju-shi
Ch'eongju-shi
Suwon-shi
Ch'unch'eon-shi
Haeju-shi
Shinuiju-shi
Hamheung-shi
Ch'eongjin-shi
Seogwip'o-shi
Mokp'o-shi
Kunsan-shi
Namwon-shi
Chinju-shi
Chinhae-shi
Masan-shi
Kimhae-shi
P'ohang-shi
Andong-shi
Yeongju-shi
Kumi-shi
Asan-shi
Ch'eonan-shi
Ch'ungju-shi
Uijeongbu-shi
Seongnam-shi
Anyang-shi
Osan-shi
P'yeongtaek-shi
Wonju-shi
Sokch'o-shi
Songrim-shi
Sariwon-shi
Wonsan-shi
Heungnam-shi
Najin-shi
Seongjin-shi
Naju-shi
Sunch'eon-shi
Yeoch'eon-shi
Yeosu-shi
Kwangyang-shi
Iksan-shi
Kimchae-shi
Cheongup-shi
Sach'eon-shi
Tongyeong-shi
Keochae-shi
Kyeongsan-shi
Yeongch'eon-shi
Kimch'eon-shi
Sasan-shi
Kongju-shi
Boryeong-shi
Nonsan-shi
Chaech'eon-shi
Dongduch'eon-shi
Koyang-shi
Namyangju-shi
Kuri-shi
Kwangmyeong-shi
Kwach'eon-shi
Hanam-shi
Shiheung-shi
Ansan-shi
Kunp'o-shi
Uiwang-shi
Yongin-shi
Daebaek-shi
Samch'eok-shi
Donghae-shi
Kangreung-shi
Haesan-shi
Shinp'o-shi
Manp'o-shi
Kangkyae-shi
Huich'eon-shi
Kuseong-shi



Khmer
Names: Khmer, the Khmer, Khmer
Ruler/Title: Jayavarman VII/ Deva-Raja
Leaders: Soma, Suryavarman, Indravarman, Yasovarman, Rajendravarman
UU: Phak'akMan (2/3/1); requires Iron; replaces Pikeman?
Shunned/Favored Gov.: Communism, Monarchy
Cities:
Yasodharapura
Harihalara
Angkor Thom
Angkor Wat
Roluos
Jayendranagari
Koh Ker
Phimai
Phnom Penh
Isanapura
Oc Eo
Wat Phu
Phanom Rung
Buriram
Vientiane
Srisatchanalai
Sukhothai
Kompong Cham
Saigon
Hue
Aranyapathet
Ayuthaya
Lop Buri
Maung Singh
Banteay Srei
Takeo
Pre Rup
Phnom Kulen
Preah Vihear
Beng Melea
Banteay Samre
Chey Say Tevoda
Thommanon
Ta Phrom
Banteay Kdei
Neak Pean
Sras Srang
Prei Monti
Preah Ko
Bakong
Lolei
Baksei Chamkrong
Prasat Kravan
Phimeanakas
Pali
Mahendraparvata
Preah Khan
Suryaparvata
Indrapura
Sambhupura
Beng Mealea
Chok Gargyar
Chantaburi
Banteay Chhmar
Muang Tam

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 28-12-2001 at 04:38

	19-12-2001 21:45									#2
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Poles:
I might be off my rocker here, but shouldn't Lech Walesa be included as a leader? Have I somehow just associated him with the wrong country?

I seem to recall also that Hussars are properly Hungarian units, but that's a minor issue by all accounts. I think they ought to replace knights at 4/2/3, requiring horses but not iron. This would fit their typical role as highly mobile shock troops and scouts. I could, however, be stupid on this point

I think shunned/favored here is right on... probably to everyone's relief...

Don't really know enough about the other civs in this list to make a contribution.

	19-12-2001 22:18									#3
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Bad Ax: The Hussar has been voted for on LoD's homepage as the Polish UU by polish people, so I guess they're right. 4/2/3 is a good option, I'll add it to the list. LoD did not add Walesa as a leader, but you're right about the country. I'd have added him anyway, I just didn't give a second look on LoD's list.

	22-12-2001 09:05									#4
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Just a general remark, those civs are not my strong point so I wouldn't be able to really tell about UUs. Just that I think not even one of the extrapack civs has communist as a favored gov and most actually have it as shunned.

I think that's against game balance AND historical accuracy in some occasions (like Khmer - I mean what the west knows is mainly the Khmer Rouge and that should allow you to give them the "fav. communist".

Dunno, just some thoughts.

Otherwise keep on the great work!

	22-12-2001 11:53									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Rosacrux: While I agree that not having Communism favored civs (except Inca) can well be a matter of dispute, I think it even adds to game-balance, because AI civs are even likely to become Communist, once at war, even when its "shunned". I had AI-American Communism in every single game so far.

For the Khmer: We thought more on the medieval Khmer, but still I kindalike the idea to make them favor Communism, at least they are a candidate.

	22-12-2001 14:14									#6
	Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 4) Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Poles Cities: Szczecin Gdansk

Szczecin = Stettin (Germany)
Gdansk = Danzig (Germany)

Be logical! If Stettin and Danzig are in the list of Polish cities - why do you forget to include Berlin also?

	22-12-2001 14:44									#7
	Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 4) Suffering from ads?

Of course that will be removed.
I've noticed that Stettin is in, didn't see Gdansk, otherwise it wouldn't have remained in the list so long! Why did no one else notice? I really have to start to take a look on things I post...

	22-12-2001 17:28									#8
	Re: Re: Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 4) Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I really have to start to take a look on things I post...

Yes, you have
Wroclaw = Breslau (guess who )

BTW your city list for Poland seems to be really unsorted. Is it important or not? I mean Krakow is better to be Polish city #2.

	22-12-2001 21:18									#9
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Wernazuma: Are you nuts ? Removing cities from the list just because they have German names? So, what's next, Warschau?

	22-12-2001 22:59									#10
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LoD: AFAIK, Stettin/Sczcecin was a city of german culture and language from its founding. Breslau/Wroclaw also. I'm not really sure for Gdansk/Danzig though, although the city was german for some time, I guess it has had more polish origins and history than I believed, maybe you can enlighten me...

	22-12-2001 23:09									#11
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About sorting the city list: Could you do that LoD? I'd say we keep Gdansk in the list but remove Sczcecin and Wroclaw, but I have little knowledge. And after all "Königsberg" also has not been added to the russian city list...


Some data I could get about Wroclaw: Breslau had originally slavic origins. In the 12th/13th cent. the city was inhabited by german settlers. During the bohemian reign (1335-1526), the city had mixed german/polish/czech population. Under austrian rule, the city was heavily "germanized", even more so under prussian rule (since 1763), when Breslau became the second most important prussian city. In 1918, the german-polish population ratio was about 30:1
After WWII, when most of the german population has been expelled, the communists encouraged polish people from Lwow, which became an ucrainian city, to settle in Wroclaw. Thus, today's Wroclaw has aspects from both cities, Breslau and Lwow. (Freely translated from http://www.urlaub-polen.de/breslau.shtml )

If this is no complete bull****, that would make Breslau qualify rather as being a german city.

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 22-12-2001 at 23:18

	22-12-2001 23:32									#12
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Stettin/Sczcecin: 8th cent: Founding of slavic settlement; 12th cent. german influence gets stronger in the region; 1278: Stettin becomes member of the Hanse. Until the 17th cent. Stettin (whole Pommeria) was ruled by polish aristocracy. Then the city became swedish. 1720: Prussia takes over the city.
In 1945, several 10k Germans had to leave Stettin, polish administration takes control over Stettin, under heavy protest of western diplomats.
I didn't look very deep, whether the city has more german or polish character or population in the long run. Only the one info from the situation in 1945.

	23-12-2001 00:09									#13
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I think the Hussars should replace Cavalry instead of Knights, for instance being 6/3/4. There are already too many knight-type unique units.

	23-12-2001 00:49									#14
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I've also thought about making the Hussar a replacement for the Cavalry. Your choice would be too strong however (2 bonuses, actually a faster Cossack). 4 movement is exagerated anyway, so the only remaining option would be 7/2/3

	23-12-2001 04:10									#15
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Cavalry is 6/3/3, isn't it?

Maybe the Hussars could have extended vision range instead.

	23-12-2001 09:58									#16
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All of the three cities were in the original territory of Poland to begin with. It is true that all have had a multicultural influence upon them, but keep in mind that the Poland was very multicultural in the past. The only city that I am willing to allow to drop from the list is Sczecin, since I agree it hasn't been actually within the borders of Poland for a very long period of time ('though as said before, it was there when the state was coming to existence). But Gdansk and Wroclaw must stay. BTW, I wonder where you got that info about the latter - for one thing, it was never in Austrian territory.

	23-12-2001 16:21									#17
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You mean Wroclaw? All Silesia was Austrian from 1526 to 1742. Well, legally, it was bohemian, but under habsburg rule. Maria Theresia has to give it up to Prussia in the Austrian succession war.Btw, AFAIK Silesia was polish in the beginning (let's say 9th cent.), then became part of the Holy Roman Empire since 1327 and did not become polish again before 1945.
If you'd ask me, Wroclaw/Breslau is even the most german city of the three.
I agree on the multicultural aspect of the polish though. Please believe me that I'm not a "greater germany" supporter.
One option though could be to have the cities in both lists with german and polish names (we have this case often regarding ancient civs, so why not in here too?). Just a thought...

	23-12-2001 16:31									#18
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quote: Originally posted by LoD But Gdansk and Wroclaw must stay. BTW, I wonder where you got that info about the latter - for one thing, it was never in Austrian territory.

Actually, Breslau/Wroclaw was Austrian from 1526 (when Ferdinand of Habsburg was elected king of Bohemia, of which Silesia was a part then) to 1742 (when Austria had to cede Silesia to Prussia).

	25-12-2001 16:19									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III And after all "Königsberg" also has not been added to the russian city list...

Ja, ja, naturlich... Because "Königsberg" is, in fact, Krolewiec ("King-city") and it was named after one Chech King and belonged to Luzhica Serbs who are living in Germany now and are demanding to be independent country

Check this and enjoy by "real" names of some German cities.
What about Slubice-n-Odra, which is illegally renamed by those evil Germans into Frankfurt?
http://luzicane.boom.ru/luzica.html

Seriously, why not to have a poll for Stettin/Szczecin, Danzig/Gdansk and Breslau/Wroclaw? It is Apolyton Extra Pack only, not decision of UN, OTAN or any other world-wide organization.

	25-12-2001 18:21									#20
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datakodin: maybe you should add that you're talking about Frankfurt/ Oder and not Frankfurt/ Main...

I know quite well that many german cities grew upon slavic settlements. My beautiful hometown itself, Graz was once a small village around a slovene "gradec" or "little castle"... Same goes for the majority of towns/cities in Styria. Nevertheless Graz is an austrian city, not only politically but also from population since almost thousand years...

I really like the idea of putting the german/polish cities in both lists, thus no one really gets hurt.

	27-12-2001 12:04									#21
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wernazuma, et. al.: the city list for the korean civ has been updated at the following address:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=38340

	28-12-2001 02:05									#22
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Wernazuma: I am positive that Wroclaw lied more time within Polish borders in Prussia/Germany - especially more than Szczecin. I can drag some people here with arguments on the case if you wish .
Overall, I agree to your proposal to duplicate cities with different names in the two city lists.

datakodin: But there are two cities now - Frankfurt am Oder and Slubice .

Q Cubed: Wait a moment - are you the Q Cubed? The same one as the guy from alpha.owo?

	28-12-2001 04:55									#23
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LoD:

well, i've never been referred to as the Q Cubed, but yah, it's me from alpha.owo.

that's a lot to be said for keeping the same handle for what, several years now.

i'm also the same Q Cubed as the one that was at SidGames, ACOL, and numerous others.

	06-01-2002 03:34									#24
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What's going on? Last post that I see is

quote: LoD: well, i've never been referred to as the Q Cubed, but yah, it's me from alpha.owo. that's a lot to be said for keeping the same handle for what, several years now. i'm also the same Q Cubed as the one that was at SidGames, ACOL, and numerous others.

And there's none link to second page of this forum.

If sb reply me, I'm not sure if I'll see it.

	30-01-2002 22:42									#25
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You can omit "shi" from all the Korean cities. It just means "city" and Koreans don't really use the term like that. Also, you will need more historical cities, too, like:

Hanyang (present-day Seoul, so may be repetitive like Edo with Tokyo for Japan)

Sabi

Namyang

Soanpyong

Koryong

Ungjin

Anyhow, there was only one "daewang" (great king) and that was King Sejong. All other Korean kings were just called "wang" (king).

Also, I'm opposed to using non-English words like "kobukson" or "daewang" instead of "turtleboat" or "king". After all, Rome is called "Rome" not "Roma". So, the same goes for all the other proposed civs. Simply, this game is in English and all terms should be translated to English.

Also, the favored government of monarchy is fine, but republic may be a better choice. While Korea was a monarchy for a very long time, it is now a democracy (just like England or France). In fact, it is often considered the only true democracy in Asia right now. Most Koreans don't like the idea of royalty in modern society anyhow. The English are more appreciative of their monarchy than the Koreans are, for example.

Last edited by siredgar on 30-01-2002 at 22:55

	30-01-2002 23:02									#26
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burak: Lost during the forum transfer.
Rewriting what's still relevant:
Q-Cubed: Well, there's always the first time . I was extremely suprised when I saw your nick here BTW... I thought you dissapeared from the scene (but then again, I wasn't much of Pollytubby ).
-------------------------
Wernazuma III: Alright, explain this to me . You said you had to trim down the list of cities that I've sent you (for Poland), because of their number. Now, why do Poles have 63, the Ethopians have 71, and Koreans - 91? I confess I know very little about history of Eastern Asia, but simple logic tells me that the Koreans, even in their greatest time, were a little limited by the Chineese in terms of territory to grow the size of, for example, XVIth-century Poland. Now, is it just me, or is there something weird about that ?

	31-01-2002 00:12									#27
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Nope, I guess the list is OK as it is

	31-01-2002 12:45									#28
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the 91 cities, i suppose you can drop the last 20 to put them on par with the ethiopians.

most of them are smaller cities anyway, with little to do in the way of history.

and if you so wish, you can drop -shi, as siredgar is right, it just means "city". i personally, however, would like to see that stay~ it's just a personal preference here, so.

same with using kobukson/turtle ship and wang(daewang)/king(...the great). you can change them if need be, but i'd prefer to have them rendered in romanized korean.
besides, the zulus have their "impi" unit, which, as far as i can tell, isn't exactly an english term, so the precedent has already been set.

to add to the ancient names for cities, you could also add seowon-shi, or seowon if you prefer.

-----
well, lod: i did disappear from the scene, actually, for a while. i hadn't enjoyed apton so much, and so didn't make the switch when firaxis died, even though i'd been registered back when owo was around. even now, i'm not a frequent viewer, or poster, so...

	31-01-2002 22:58									#29
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I agree with you about keeping the Kobukson and Wang, but I tend to remove the -shi thing, because it comes with almost every city name and that is somehow ennervating if you ask me.

	01-02-2002 11:01									#30
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At one point, the Koreans controlled most of Manchuria and parts of Siberia. That's about the same amount of territory as all of Western Europe. Do they deserve more cities than the Polish? Probably not, but they did control a lot of land for a longer period of time. In fact, the Koreans had sovereignty over the same territory for at least 1,000 years, uninterrupted. That's pretty impressive.