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Depression
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Quite a few people want to add new CSAs the the list. Unfortunately, this is not currently possible with the editor- however, there is a way to make a "maritime" CSA. I apologize if this has been suggested before, but here's my idea:
1. When checking the two CSAs for a civilization that you want to be maritime in the editor, only check one- for example, if you want a commercial/maritime civ, just check commercial.
2. Use Gramphos' copytool to make a new version of every ship, identical to the originals but having some extra movement or costing less shields or whatever.
3. Make the new ships available only to the maritime civs (and make the original ships unavailable to them).
Voila! A civ that has, as its CSA, the ability to build better ships. If the powers that be like my idea, the list of CSA-civ combinations can be revised to include maritime civs.
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jsw363
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Again, I'm not sure that the Maya were militaristic either and I don't like the Spanish being militaristic either. My knowledge of Polish history is sketchy at best, but I do remember the three partitions, which seems to indicate that they're not so militaristic. Also, I don't think that the Turks were quite as blood-thirsty as the Mongols when it came to expansion. They're definitely not scientific, and were surprisingly tolerant of other religions, so I don't think that these traits would fit them well either. So this is my proposal:
Militaristic - Expansionist : Mongols
Militaristic - Religious : Turks
Militaristic - Scientific : Khmer
Militaristic - Industrious : Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial : Vikings
Expansionist - Religious :Spanish
Expansionist - Scientific : Mayans
Expansionist - Industrious : Celts
Expansionist - Commercial : Portuguese
Religious - Scientific : Arabs, Inca
Religious - Industrious : Polish
Religious - Commercial : Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious : Koreans,
Scientific - Commercial : Dutch
Industrious - Commercial : Phoenicians
And as I am sure that others have stated on previous threads, the name Inca is a misnomer since it only referred to the emporer of the "Inca" people and not the people as a whole group. I am not sure what they called themselves however...
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefu
Vikings as Mil - Exp or Exp - Com certainly don't fit, as they basically weren't all that expansionist, apart from few colonies in Greenland, Iceland and Newfoundland. |
Uhh...what about the Vikings in Ireland, and the founding of Cork, Waterford, Wexford, Dublin, Limerick, the Vikings of the kingdom of Jorvik, the settlement of Normandy, the Kievan Rus and the establishment of the states that would be the genesis for modern Russia, the Danelaw in England, the Vikings of the Orkneys and Shetland and the Faroes, the Vikings of the Highlands/Islands in Scotland, and long range Viking attacks on Nakur and other states in North Africa, the Cordoban Caliphate, and Byzantium and the Norman kingdoms of the sun, in Southern Italy and Sicily? And of course, the Norman Conquest of England...
That's a fair bit of expansion....
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LoD
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Warsaw, Poland
Jan 2000
time: 06:16
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Wernazuma III: I am aware of that; however, keep in mind that I myself am speaking as a voice of many  . Seriously, I do acknowledge, your, err, authority, but I would hate if all those heated discussions that took place over at CivGuild's Forums would turn out to be a waste of time (same goes concerning all the other participants of said debates).
Anyway, Badania means Research, not Industry. Przemysl is Industry, and you can see that wasn't quite the most popular pick in the poll  . Generally, the breakdown was as follows:
-First CSA: Military (decided upon a majority of votes in the aformentioned "heated discussions")
-Second CSA: breakdown as follows (total 362, which I considered a sufficent number and closed the poll):
- Religious 48.34%
- Scientific 30.11%
- Expansionist 12.71%
- Commercial 6.63%
- Industrious 2.21%
Too clarify (and avoid accusations of being biased): my picks were Scientific (Copernicus, quite a few other researches, merits such as cracking the Enigma code) and Commercial (Poland encompased, and encompases, many important trade routes).
And now, why the "general assembly" decided on the two mentioned attributes:
-Military - contrary to what some of the posters here semm to think , Poles have actually proven themselves as excellent fighters in numerous battles they took part in. Cedynia 972, Grunwald 1410, Vienna 1683, Warsaw 1920, Monte Casino 1944... I'll be damned if I count them all.
-Religous - well, the primary argumentation here was that Poland was throughout history a quite religious country (cult of Marie etc.).
And, for one thing, Industry is not a good choice for Poles since Poland never really based its economy on manufacture - it was one of the major crops exporters at one time (the "granary of Europe").
Too further clarify: I am aware that I may seem to be only concentrated about one nation during the course of this discussion, however my strained shedule prevents for finding the time to discuss the other civs (because before I discuss such things, I usually do research), so forgive my apparent lop-sidedness.
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Wernazuma III
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Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:16
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LoD: Am I really too authoritarian? I don't want to be, maybe I'm doing something wrong...
After all, my final list is completely different from my first proposal, so I think I tried to take other opinions well into account. Anyway, "Badania" was a misreading from my part. So, according to your poll-results Mil-Sci would still be the second choice. You have to see it like this: At least your poll shows what is the 2nd best combi, that's not the case with most others! It's a good guideline for choicemaking.
I really hope that my list is the best compromise between original proposals (including your poll) and balance, based on the discussion here and my own knowledge.
I'm not dictating this list into the ExtraPack however, there will be a poll among different choices. I only plea that the poll will not turn into a vote that looks only on certain civs and disregards the whole thing.
Maybe mine is not the most popular, maybe Stefu's list is really better, we'll see. I don't want to judge, but I had to make a coherent list and came to this conclusion:
Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Poles
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Turks, Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians
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jsw363
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Wernazuma- I don't mean to cause more problems, but could you explain to me why the Incas are listed as industrious? You are right that they were expansionist since they were able to amass such a large amount of territory in such a short period of time. I was wondering though if they might be better as scientific for their extensive knowledge of agriculture, architecture, astronomy, mathmatics and engineering.
Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Poles
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Turks, Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific Incas
Expansionist - Industrious
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians
Last edited by jsw363 on 07-01-2002 at 13:15
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Va-Toran
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Scientific Incans provides an opportunity to remove any blank combinations. I have moved the celts into the Exp-Ind slot, on the basis of their metalwork and salt mining which they then traded as equals with the greeks, I think it is a better combination than Exp-Rel for them.
This allows me to move another civ in to the Exp-Rel slot, the Portuguese are by far the best fit, like the Spanish they converted all their colonies to Christianity (The British and Dutch didn't) and are one of the most religious countries in europe, although not nearly as fervent as the Spanish, it is a satisfactory alternative to Exp-Com.
This allows the Vikings to become Exp-Com, not only were the vikings great explorers but they also weren't organised and unified enough to be deemed militaristic, most expeditions were organised by local chieftains without the knowlege of any higher authority.
Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Poles
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Turks
Expansionist - Religious Portuguese
Expansionist - Scientific Incas
Expansionist - Industrious Celts
Expansionist - Commercial Vikings
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians
I had considered moving the Arabs to Exp-Sci, but I think they are better where they are.
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Seth
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Lowell, MA
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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quote:
I had considered moving the Arabs to Exp-Sci, but I think they are better where they are. |
IMO, if you move the Arabs anywhere, move them to Exp-Rel. But I think Rel-Sci fits them better than any.
My preference for Vikings is Mil-Com, but I suppose you could do a good job with Exp-Com and making them extremely aggressive.
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Seth
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Lowell, MA
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Depression
Quite a few people want to add new CSAs the the list. Unfortunately, this is not currently possible with the editor- however, there is a way to make a "maritime" CSA. I apologize if this has been suggested before, but here's my idea:
1. When checking the two CSAs for a civilization that you want to be maritime in the editor, only check one- for example, if you want a commercial/maritime civ, just check commercial.
2. Use Gramphos' copytool to make a new version of every ship, identical to the originals but having some extra movement or costing less shields or whatever.
3. Make the new ships available only to the maritime civs (and make the original ships unavailable to them).
Voila! A civ that has, as its CSA, the ability to build better ships. If the powers that be like my idea, the list of CSA-civ combinations can be revised to include maritime civs. |
I like your suggestion an awful lot. But how do you trigger peaceful golden ages? If the UU for the Dutch is some improved cargo ship, I'd imagine that their golden age would usually be triggered peacefully. However, withoutout the ability to give GWs the maritime attribute, you're up a creek.
Peace
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aahz_capone
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The Hague
Feb 2002
time: 06:16
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IMHO, I liked it when the spanish were expan-relig. if they were military they would have screwed around more in WW1 and 2 (even after their civil war). expan definately fits the colombus story. If they share a place with the celts, tough.
I also think the Mayans are a bad idea, not a civ persé, since they were pretty damn cool, but as a plug for the sci-exp, no. Lets not forget they didn't invent the wheel in their entire history up till the end.
SCI-EXP SOLUTION: Luxemburg? No, just kidding. How about AUSTRIANS!  Seriously! The austor-hungarian empire was pretty hip until the 1900s. And Vienna is a hub of Scientific renaissance. Lets seriously consider the austrians, who are not as mil as their german brothers as most people think they are. And as special unit a special canon: The czech republic used to be in the austro-hungarian emipre, and they have a long history of quality artillery spannig centuries that still is some of the best today.
and btw, the Swiss are more mil-ind then the ethiopians. hey, not a bad idea, heh? While I think mil-com is better for vikings then turks, but I could live with the vikings being exp too, but we have portugal for that don't we?
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:16
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Hmmm , well just an idea , would it not be better if every tribe got lets 3 , or even maybe 4 special "properties" , i know it can be done with the editor , but do that on lets say 5 tribes , when playing with 16 and the games crashes , should Firaxis not calculate this in ?
Example the Hebrews the are religious and commercial but also militaristic
the Americans , well commercial and militaristic and industrious and scientific
some minor tribe could only be religious
and so on and on
the main point is , more possibilities for the tribes , and the comp should not crash !
just think of the possibilities !
have a nice day
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Hasdrubal
One note:
Phoenicians should be expansionist - commercial.
We invented the concept of a maritime trade empire! Way back when the Romans were still illiterate peasants and the Greek philosophers were doing twelve year old boys, our trade empire stretched across all the shores of the mediterranean. |
I think I would prefer to have Alcibiades 'doing' me, rather than be thrown into the belly of Baal or Moloch as a Phoenician/Carthaginian child sacrifice:
http://iquebec.ifrance.com/heberg/p...escriptum&POP=1
By the way, Massilia/Massalia/Marseilles started out as a Greek trading city-
'GREECE
Greek voyages of discovery in ancient times were motivated by the desire for military victory as well as for economic power. The Greek bireme , with two decks of oarsmen, could travel long distances swiftly and efficiently, and also maneuver easily in battle. In 510 B.C., Scylax , a Greek in the Persian Navy, was one of the first to record his travels along the coastlines of India and Egypt. First he traveled overland to the source of the Indus River in the Hindu Kush Mountains of Afghanistan. He then set sail down the river to the Arabian Sea. Following the coastline closely, Scylax explored the Gulf of Oman and the southeastern end of the Arabian Peninsula. Scylax's 30-month journey took him all the way around modern-day Saudi Arabia, through the Nile canal and into the Mediterranean Sea. With the information Scylax brought back, the Persian Emperor Darius was able to conquer the Indus River Valley and expand his empire.
Pytheas , a seaman from the Greek colony of Massalia (in what is now France), was commissioned by local merchants to find a trade route that would circumvent the Phoenician monopoly and open up the tin trade to the Greeks. Not only did Pytheas accomplish his goal, but he also circumnavigated the island of Britain and explored islands in the North Sea and possibly traveled as far north as Norway. On his return home he navigated the North Sea to what is now Germany before returning to Massalia. It is believed that, of all the known ancient explorers, his voyage is the longest in terms of distance.'
Still, your point is taken about the commercial/expansionist nature of the Phoenicians/Carthaginians.
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TheBigTurkey
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Oops, somebody posted this already, sorry. Didn't see that. Sorry panag, maybe my ideas different, however.
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24-12-2001 00:22
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