19-12-2001 06:08									#1
	Extra Pack Finalization Project (part 5: CSA) Suffering from ads?

To move on, this is the place to discuss the CSA for all Civs.
I've put them as I found them in the other threads, sometimes changed them a bit to evade triples or even quadriples! But still there are 2 triples left, so we have to work this out. There'll be much mud catching anyway.

Modified list:
Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Polish
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 20-12-2001 at 23:58

	19-12-2001 14:56									#2
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I would prefer to see the Portuguese as
Commercial/Expansionist.

Reasons:
Portuguese History - the Portuguese had Commercial interposts in every country; in his max, the Portuguese Colonial Territories covered a mass of land uncomparably larger than the original Portuguese Territory.

Religion was not a diving force of the Portuguese History: Other than Fatima (and that is only in the XXth century), Portugal hasn't any important Religous focus point. Although it seems, in latest inquiries, that the Portuguese are one of the most religious people of Europe, in actuality, the Portuguese History was much more built on the Expansion effort up until the end of the Portuguese Golden Age in the mid-XVII century.

UU - the Nau is much more coherent with a Expansionist Civ (if not a Maritime civ).

Gameplay: If the Portuguese become a Religious Civ in the Expansion Pack, those who play it have an incentive to build Wonders like the Hanging Gardens and the sorts. If they are Expansionists, the incentive will be to build those Wonders that are more related to our History (like Magellan's Expedition). If would make the simulation component of the game a bit more realistic.

	19-12-2001 16:12									#3
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All those triples! I sat down and came up with this. It contains only two pairs and one unused CSA. Whaddaya think?

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Polish, Celts
Militaristic - Scientific Turks
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Spanish
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

	19-12-2001 18:07									#4
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Werna
IMHO no other combination suits better the Spanish than Militaristic Religious.

	19-12-2001 18:41									#5
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That's great, Stefu!
But I think we should get a civ for the expansionist-scientific slot available.

	19-12-2001 22:24									#6
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Stefu: Your list is much better than mine. The only thing I cannot follow is why Turks are Scientific, it doesn't seem to fit. The Phoenicians scientific? But well, that could go, if for nothing more than for game balance.
I agree with Jay Bee, Spanish should stay Militaristic Religious, maybe the Celts could be given Expansionist, Religious instead although they definitely were Militaristic. Hmmm...

I'll give it one or two thoughts and see how we can merge our two approaches.

	20-12-2001 02:49									#7
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Turks are scientific mainly because I couldn't think of better special ability for them. I mean, they were really more militaristic than expansionist, if you think as I do and think of expansionist nations as those exploring and charting the world. (That's why Spanish became Expansionist, too. I mean, yes, Spain was militaristically important, but then there are Christopher Columbus and other Spanish explorers of America.) I dunno, there's just something in my brain connecting Turks and Germans.

	20-12-2001 21:30									#8
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While I don't disagree that Expansionist is also a possible trait for the Spanish I think it was much more the quantity of people going to the Americas mobilized by a militaristic society and the amount of "Great Leaders" who managed the enterprises that led to the rise of Spain. Both leads me to the opinion that Spain should be Militaristic, Religious.

It's not so easy to get balance and accuracy into one. My merging idea would also lead to 1 open slot and 2 pairs. But it kinda hurts not to make the Arabs Scientific...


Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Spanish, Celts
Militaristic - Scientific Polish
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Arabs
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

	20-12-2001 23:06									#9
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Poles as Mil - Sci? Have there been too many inventions coming out of Poland? There was Marie Curie - who else?

Expansionist is a good choice for Arabs, but Rel-Sci would be the best. Still, it's pretty much the only place to fit Mayans. O' well.

BTW, doesn't the regular civ list have Aztecs and Japanese as Mil - Rel? That would give us four Mil - Rel civs. Better make Spanish Exp - Rel (fits in with the conquistadors and Isabella.) Alternatively, we could make the Celts Exp - Rel. In fact, let's do that. At least no-one'll be angry about the Spanish.

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Polish
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

How 'bout that?

	20-12-2001 23:55									#10
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Don't talk about conquistadors too loud
Actually I thought about Marie Curie . I just thought, it'd be better than putting Turks there.

The list looks good to me , I'll edit my first post.

	21-12-2001 04:23									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Stefu: Your list is much better than mine. The only thing I cannot follow is why Turks are Scientific, it doesn't seem to fit. The Phoenicians scientific? But well, that could go, if for nothing more than for game balance. I agree with Jay Bee, Spanish should stay Militaristic Religious, maybe the Celts could be given Expansionist, Religious instead although they definitely were Militaristic. Hmmm...

Mmm....can't say I agree with you on the Celts being militaristic. For me, militarism has always implied a degree of organisation, a willingness to subdue individual or small scale concerns to a greater whole; the lack of organisation of the Celts, the inability to unify for any length of time contributed to the Roman victories over them- that and their indiscipline in battle, and the desire for personal glory on behalf of warriors.
I would actually stress the trading aspect of the Celts more, as they dealt with Greek and Phoenician and Etruscan traders as equals, their early Europe-wide rise to power was also founded on the extensive trade routes linked to the salt mines at Hallstatt:

http://www.stern.nyu.edu/~wyu/salt.html

http://www.accesscom.com/~wangbick/latene.html

The problem I have with the religious aspect is that although the Celts had a priestly caste, the religions/gods they followed differed from area to area, although some, like Lugh, were popular in various guises/incarnations over a wide area. Then of course you have the transition from pre-Christian faith to Christianity, and a change in Celtic culture. I think given the far-flung peregrinations of the Celtic monks and missionaries, the 'white martyrdoms' sought ought by Irish and British monks, the expansionist aspect of Celtic culture could, in a way, stand in for that.

Turkish, Arab and Islamic science:

http://www.geocities.com/~n4bz/gsr5/gsr502.htm

http://www.jannah.org/articles/contrib.html

http://www.ukans.edu/~ibetext/texts/paksoy-2/cam6.html

http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/o...story/scholars/

	21-12-2001 16:57									#12
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molly: I said that they definitely were militaristic because the cult they had around war was immense. They lacked organized forms of Military as the lacked bigger political unions, but war was an essential aspect of their culture. Nevertheless: We have discarded it anyway for balance reasons...

I share your doubts about the religious aspect too, but I'd say we keep it for balance reasons.

	22-12-2001 03:19									#13
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I have concerns about the Militaristic-Scientific CSA given to the Poles. This was not included in Civ III even though there were some good candidates like the Germans. I assume that this was because testing showed the combination to be too powerful.

On the other hand if we want Poland dominating the world, not being partioned...

	22-12-2001 05:45									#14
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I think the dutch are more scientific than industrious.

	22-12-2001 06:55									#15
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My only two gripes:

Ethiopians-

Ethiopians should definetly be religious. DEFINETLY. Too lazy to write out a real argument, but definetly religious. In fact, I'd ommit expansionist to make them religious.

Polish-

Militaristic? Let me brace myself while I laugh...

	22-12-2001 08:52									#16
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Right-O! My NSH opinion on the current CSAs:

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks =Mongols OK, for Turks you could use Religius-Expansionist, or Religious Militaristic. That should suit them better, they conquered under the banner of Islam and up to the 16th century were really serious about it.

Militaristic - Religious Spanish= Nah, Expansionist-Religious. I firmly disagree with the militaristic trait for the Spaniard

Militaristic - Scientific Polish = Not really "scientific", nor militaristic... but is there anything better? I'd have to think about this..

Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians + Religious-industrious would be on spot more like it.

Militaristic - Commercial Vikings = Yo!

Expansionist - Religious Celts = Cool!

Expansionist - Scientific

Expansionist - Industrious Incas = Hmm... ok!

Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese = 100%

Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs = Good pick for the Arabs... the Mayans... dunno. Probably.

Religious - Industrious Khmer = I couldn't say.

Religious - Commercial Hebrews = Ya!!!

Scientific - Industrious Koreans = Scientfic? Koreans? Nah...

Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians = Again... why scientific? Mostly expansionist, if something. Darn, we need this "maritime" CSA...

Industrious - Commercial Dutch= OK!

	22-12-2001 11:48									#17
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Religious was a possibility for the Ethiopians of course. I discarded it mainly because I came to think about the religious diversity in the Ethiopian region. As Locutus stated, it was the only non-asian state that even had buddhist centers in the middle ages.
For the Polish we had initaially Militaristic-Expansionist, but we had a triple on that. Maybe Myrddin is right though, it could proove too powerful.

About the Spanish CSAs: If we change it (and I mess again with iberian fanatics ): We could put the Turks on the Militaristic-Religious spot, maybe the Polish too. Then we'd have Scientific-Militaristic and Expansionist-Scientific free. But what should we do with the celts? They definitely were not scientific!
Or we put Turks/Celts on Mil./Rel. and what to do with the polish? Let them remain on Sci-Mil seems not to be popular and making them expansionist? ...

Koreans: I really think we should let them there, if for nothing else than balance.

Post your ideas, but I'd prefer whole lists, we have to keep in mind not to let too many slots empty. We could discuss endlessly whether for one specific Civ we've made the best choice. Lamentably not all will end up completely satisfied

	23-12-2001 02:36									#18
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Arabs : I think that expansionist fits more than scientific , despite their obvious accomplishments .
so I feel like Religious-Expansionsit is more like them. especially considering the fact that they did expand their influence in a very rapid way , and have considered it a very important goal.


and Rosacrux , is it possible that we'll have other CSA's ?

like isolationist ? maritime is a good Idea as well ...

Poland ? I would say rather Industious Religious ...( if something )

	23-12-2001 04:02									#19
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First of all people, we have list which only has one hole and you don't, so -please- consider that.

quote: This was not included in Civ III even though there were some good candidates like the Germans.

Last time I looked, Germans were Mil - Sci.

Also, Mil - Sci isn't nearly the best combination. Com - Ind, now, that's a combination guaranteed to kick arse.

quote: Arabs : I think that expansionist fits more than scientific , despite their obvious accomplishments . so I feel like Religious-Expansionsit is more like them. especially considering the fact that they did expand their influence in a very rapid way , and have considered it a very important goal.

Well, I still feel Sci - Rel is the best for them.

	23-12-2001 04:26									#20
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Dalgetti/Rosacrux: I wouldn't recomend additional CSAs for this pack anyway, the pack doesn't change rules at all! Maybe this could be part of the Expansion-Mod pack, but that's still faaaaar away...

	23-12-2001 09:44									#21
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In my attempt to make it so that there is bo empty trait pair (thus just one double) I did the following 2 steps:
1) Set a 2 traits to each civ
2) Lessen doubles by doing some movings, so in the end there are no empties.

I think it is quite acurate IMHO for the most part. Well at least thats my proposal. Hope it is of some use

Militaristic - Expansionist : Mongols
Militaristic - Religious : Turks
Militaristic - Scientific : Khmer
Militaristic - Industrious : Celts, Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial : Vikings
Expansionist - Religious :Spanish
Expansionist - Scientific : Mayans
Expansionist - Industrious : Incas
Expansionist - Commercial : Portuguese
Religious - Scientific : Arabs
Religious - Industrious : Polish
Religious - Commercial : Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious : Koreans
Scientific - Commercial : Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial : Dutch

	23-12-2001 10:38									#22
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Wernazuma: Err, it may be my failling memory after not sleeping for 21 hours (and counting), but the poll results for the Polish CSA were Militaristic and Religious (of which none is actually my fav pick for that civ).

Myrddin: Drat! You have uncovered our conspiracy to attain global control! Now I must send my Polish brothers too eliminate you!
Zoon vee zall rule za world !

	23-12-2001 16:25									#23
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LoD: As I've said and Stefu also pointed out, we lamentably have to look on ALL civs. At first I tried to let the Polish Mil-Rel, then changed it for balance reasons. If you can come up with a good alternative for the Turks, please go ahead. Could you post the third most wanted CSA for the polish? I'm sure we can at least avoid making some completely unwanted polish CSA combination.

Pezeteros: A new approach, good! However, I have problems with Mayans being Expansionist, for they actually were everything but...

	23-12-2001 16:30									#24
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LoD et al, this could be a modified version of the list:

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols, Turks
Militaristic - Religious Polish
Militaristic - Scientific Koreans
Militaristic - Industrious Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Spanish, Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Mayans
Scientific - Commercial Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial Dutch

	23-12-2001 17:14									#25
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Wern: How about making Celts Exp - Sci? That would neatly plug the last hole.

	23-12-2001 17:20									#26
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Poles and Militaristic?

	23-12-2001 19:07									#27
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Stefu: Celts scientific? It's tempting to fill our gap, but honestly, they never were, not even slightly...

Ecthelion: Although I wouldn't give the Polish the Militaristic ability either, the fact that Poland had "bad luck" in history and wasn't treated nicely doesn't necessarily imply that they were no militaristic society...

LoD: "Badania" in your poll stands for Industrious?
Maybe we could find some solution with Polish being Mil-Ind, putting Ethiopians somewhere else?


What do you all think of making 5-6 different lists with one gap/ no triples maximum and then let a poll decide on which we should take. We CANNOT keep up democracy regarding any specific civ, but at least we should try to make the whole CSA-list subject of democratic decision...

	23-12-2001 19:14									#28
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Hi,

Wouldn't it be better to switch the Phoenecian and Dutch CSA?

So:

Phoenicians: Commercial / Industrious
Dutch: Commercial / Scientific

I think Dutch scientists (especially during the 1600s) have been contributing far more to world science that Phoenecian ones... The fact is also that the Dutch are a trading nation instead of a producing one.

But I agree, the way it is now is in my opinion the second best solution.

Keep up the good work!

	23-12-2001 23:21									#29
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Militaristic - Expansionist : Mongols
Militaristic - Religious : Turks
Militaristic - Scientific : Khmer
Militaristic - Industrious : Ethiopians
Militaristic - Commercial : Vikings
Expansionist - Religious :Spanish
Expansionist - Scientific : Mayans
Expansionist - Industrious : Celts
Expansionist - Commercial : Portuguese
Religious - Scientific : Arabs
Religious - Industrious : Polish
Religious - Commercial : Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious : Koreans, Incas
Scientific - Commercial : Phoenicians
Industrious - Commercial : Dutch

Here is my proposal for the CSA's. I don't especially like the Maya traits, but I guess that's the way it has to be. I don't see them as expansionist; I would prefer Commecial-Scientific. They never established a presence beyond the Yucatan and didnt' conquer many of the other minor tribes in thier region, so I don't think you could classify them as expansionist.

	23-12-2001 23:44									#30
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Hmm. We could do a little switcheroo with special abilities of Turks, Ethiopians and Poles to get Mil - Ind Poles, and we'd get this (I also switched Dutch and Phoenicians):

Militaristic - Expansionist Mongols
Militaristic - Religious Ethiopians, Spanish
Militaristic - Scientific Turks
Militaristic - Industrious Poles
Militaristic - Commercial Vikings
Expansionist - Religious Celts
Expansionist - Scientific
Expansionist - Industrious Incas
Expansionist - Commercial Portuguese
Religious - Scientific Mayans, Arabs
Religious - Industrious Khmer
Religious - Commercial Hebrews
Scientific - Industrious Koreans
Scientific - Commercial Dutch
Industrious - Commercial Phoenicians