07-01-2002 21:28									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 1) Sanhedrin's "judgement" of Jesus.

Agreed.

quote: 2) Isreali genocide of the Canaanites.

Nah... Everyone were doing this in those times.

quote: 3) Sicarii & Zealot terrorism against Rome.

In some way... Yes. But no.

quote: I can go on if you wish.

I'm waiting.

	07-01-2002 21:41									#32
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I don't think Canada has a best or worst time, we've got an all around mediocre history.


But if I had to choose, It'd be the early days of colonization and fur trade, which would get the title of best and worst.

	07-01-2002 21:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I don't think Canada has a best or worst time, we've got an all around mediocre history. But if I had to choose, It'd be the early days of colonization and fur trade, which would get the title of best and worst.

Sure we have a good point... Vimy Ridge.. this helped define our nation, as well as all of the peace keeping actions we have done.

Worst would have to be the internment of the Japenese-Canadians during WW2.

	07-01-2002 21:58									#34
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best: I don't want to bring the server down again

worst: I don't want to bring the server down again

	07-01-2002 21:59									#35
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Sure we have a good point... Vimy Ridge.. this helped define our nation, as well as all of the peace keeping actions we have done.

What's Vimy Ridge? Sounds like some french guy in the Bold and the Beautifull.

	07-01-2002 22:00									#36
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in other words paiktis your country suffers absolute lack of personalities

Iskander should do for the worst, now think of someone good

	07-01-2002 22:02									#37
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Best: the "swedish model"- the economic and social policy pursued by the government from the end of the second world war to the late seventies. At the end of that period Sweden was one of the most prosperous countries in the world, and managed to combine thriving industry with unparallelled social justice, great education, and low unemployment. Then it collapsed due to the stupid semi-Keynesian attempt at dealing with the recession. Oh well. Runner-up: The swedish internationalist foreign policy during the seventies and eighties, instrumental in bringing down the Apartheid regime in South Africa and one of the few western countries corageous enough to denounce The Vietnam War and the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian homeland.

Worst: I'd have to argue for Herman Lundborg's "Racial Hygene" experiments at the start of the last century. Pre-nazi racist ideology at its worst, and sweden was at the "forefront" of this "science". I'm also not a big fan of Sweden's second world-war policy, effective though it was at keeping us out of the war at all times. Basically involving grovelling at the feet of Hitler at the start of the war, supplying him with materials and transportation and then "switching sides" (while maintaining "neutrality") mid-war and grovelling to Churchill/Stalin instead.

	07-01-2002 22:03									#38
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clarification:

best: they are too many to mention here and I don't have the time now.



worst: we did have our screw ups in our history too (with lots of... external help...)


edit: as for what is the absolute best or worst, I wouldn't even dare to think about giving an asnwer to that one right now! Needs lots of thinking


in any case on the top of my hat...!


best: Pericles' Golden Era of Athens and Alexander the Great reconquest of Asia. Longlivity of Byzantium. Modern: War of independece, defeat of Italians in WW2, rapid economic growth in the '60, bringing up Greece from a devastated land after the ottoman occupation to a modern (more or less!) european country and the EU.


worst: fragility of Athenian democracy and the order for genocide of the people of Mylos IIRC (was not carried out though), Persian ransacking. 4th crusades, fall of Constantinople. Modern: 1922 screw up, Junta, Cyprus. (as I said we did our share too but were pawns in big powers hands also).

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 07-01-2002 at 22:17

	07-01-2002 22:13									#39
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High point- One of them would be during World War II, I suppose. Something like that.

Low point- One of them would be the Trail of Tears. I don't really like Andrew Jackson because of that. There are others, but at the moment, it sticks out to me.

	07-01-2002 22:20									#40
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Canada:

Bests:
Standing up to Britain and France in 1956 over Suez Crisis. First UN intervention.
Building the CPR.
Public health care.
Battles for Passchandael, Ortona, Vimy, etc.
On to Ottawa Trek 1931 (from the people)

Worsts:
Immigration Policy 1933-1958; more (ex)Nazis than jews were allowed.
Co-operation in CIA experiments on mental patients in the 70s.
Treatment of native population in British Columbia 1890-1900.
NEP.
An almost entirely one-sided NAFTA.
On to Ottawa Trek 1931 (from the gov'mnt)

	07-01-2002 22:27									#41
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For Germany, the best moment has to be Sedan!

	07-01-2002 22:28									#42
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Belgium:

worst: The independence of Belgium. Really useless, and the continuation of the oppression of the Flemish people by the Walloons and our foreign kings.

best: what kolpo said about the Benelux/EU

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly I'm not trolling, I'm just curious: do you and/or Belgians generally consider this worse than Belgium's atrocities in the Congo?

You have to remember that the atrocities you speak of were comitted under King Leopold II and at that time the Congo wasn't a Belgian colony, it was the private property of King Leopold II until he died in 1909.

I am not aware of any major atrocities between 1909-1960, when the Congo was a Belgian colony.

	07-01-2002 22:32									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Drekkus What's Vimy Ridge? Sounds like some french guy in the Bold and the Beautifull.

Here's a link to a bit of the history of Vimy Ridge.
http://www.canadagoose.net/albvimy.htm

In short, Vimy Ridge was a German defensive position, that was taken by Canadian batallions after British, and French forces failed to do so.

	07-01-2002 22:34									#44
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Oh another one of Canada's best moments was the Terry Fox run.

	07-01-2002 22:38									#45
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam Sure we have a good point... Vimy Ridge.. this helped define our nation, as well as all of the peace keeping actions we have done.

People always say that, but why? What's so grand about vimy ridge? Why does being able to kill people that the other allies couldn't, define our nation? If we are defined by a gruesome battle, that doesn't say much.


I thought about the 'On to Ottawa Trek' but figured that in the great scope of things it wasn't that important, and most people don't even remember it (infact, I didn't know about it untill I saw a documentary about it a couple months ago...) I 'spose that is the case with all Canadian history and identity, though.

The CPR would be another one of those "best and worst" cases, if you ask me.

	07-01-2002 22:43									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld People always say that, but why? What's so grand about vimy ridge? Why does being able to kill people that the other allies couldn't, define our nation? If we are defined by a gruesome battle, that doesn't say much.

It doesn't have to do with killing, when our allies couldn't. It has to do with facing extreme odds with courage.

	07-01-2002 22:46									#47
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quote: Originally posted by November Adam In short, Vimy Ridge was a German defensive position, that was taken by Canadian batallions after British, and French forces failed to do so.

I feel like a moron. Should have known that one. I pride myself on my knowledge of WWI. Went to Ypres to see the museum there and the battlefields. Visited the Canadian monument erected to commerorate (sp) the losses by one of the first gas attacks by the germans.
Don't know whether soldiers in WWI were increadibly brave or incredibly stupid to attack with 19th century tactics and weapons against 20th century defensive weapons. But the horror those men went through deserves nothing but respect.

	07-01-2002 22:52									#48
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So much to do here, so let's try and get as much as possible.

Not taking the opprotunity to abolish slavery in the US Constituition (as Franklin wanted, but others didn't)

Invention of the cotton gin makes Black slavery attractive again (It had nearly died out by 1800, this device brings it all back)

New England tries to get the USA to invade Canada as a responce to England's "Orders in council", starting war of 1812

US Capital burned 1814

James K Polk is talked into fulfilling "Manifest destiny", and allows hawks in congress to pull off greatest land grab in US history, the Mexican war of 1847-48

Southern Democrats, instead of accepting that slavery was evil, instead inact laws that force anti-slavery North to enforce evil slave catching laws throughout US territories (Dredd Scott decision)

Again, Southern Democrats, using the smoke screen of "States rights", try to suceed from the union, so they could continue their evil practice of slavery free from Northern criticsm, starting US Civil war

Andrew Johnson appoints many Southerners to posts in the South after civil war, during the "Reconstruction", which enables them to pass racist "Jim Crow" laws that would stay in place till the 1960s

NB Forrest forms Klu Klux Klan

A series of US governments break one treaty after another with Indians from 1860s to 1890s, practically eradicating the red man from the USA

Do gooder Woodrow Wilson brings USA into WWI for no good reason against Germany (Reason given is U-Boat war and Zimmerman note, but no one cares that Britain is starving German civilians with a food blockade, forcing Germany to use U-Boats to try to break it)

Wilson allows Lyodd George and Clemenceau to push unfair treaty on Germany, which lead directly to Hitler and the second world war, US congress reacts by refusing to join league of nations, dooming it to faliure.

MacAurther attacks "Bonus army" (US vets of great war, trying to collect the bonus promissed them from US gov during great depression) at Hoover's order, using force against men US gov had cheated out of money from WWI bonus promises.

US fails to allow Jews free emigration from Nazi Germany throughout 1930s, anti-semitism rife, but hidden by "Gentlemen's agreement"

Truman allows Stalin to take all of Eastern Europe, begining cold war, which will not end till 1989 (1945)

US fails to properly assist Chinese nationalists, Communists take China 1947-48

Truman supports French attempt to retake Vietnam with military equipment and loans (1947-54)

US fails to win Korean war, instead, accepts ceasefire that seperates Korea to this day (1953)

Throughout 1950s and 60s, US CIA destabilzes any government that even hints at anti-USA feeling.

JFK, following long democratic tradition, gets USA involved in another foriegn morass, Vietnam, by sending "advisors" to suppost tetering Theiu government.

LBJ, criminally missuses gulf of Tonkin resolution, commits massive US forces to war in Vietnam. (1965)

US press corp lies about war in asia, claims US is losing badly after TET, when in fact, the communists themselves were ready to give the war up, so they end up winning a political victory after catastrophic loss on the battlefield (1968)

Richard Nixon missuses his authority, and is forced to resign (1974)

USA abandons Vietnam to it's fate, millions of anti-communists left high and dry, will become the "Boat people" who flee Vietnam. (1975)

Jimmy Carter is president, a disaster unparrelled (he's a good man, but a boob as a politian)

Iranian Hostage crisis (1979-80)

US Navy spy scandals through early 80s

US attempt to place IBM (intermediate Ballistic Missles) in Europe as a counter to Soviets (early 80s)

Challenger explosion (1986)

George Bush Sr's economic plans

8 years of Clinton, take your pick.

9/11 2001, the day many Americans were murdered.

I'm sure I missed some, but this is enough.
Good list must wait till later.

	07-01-2002 23:08									#49
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Nice list, Chris

You're telling a lot of truth there and actually admit to outward flaws, while most Americans only consider inner politics...

	07-01-2002 23:20									#50
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Part of being an historian is to accept truth, no matter how painful, andy.

If I can't look at US history objectivly, it would be impossible to look at other nations histories either.

Still thinking abouit the good list, it will be long also (and probaly sickeningly patriotic, too! )

	07-01-2002 23:30									#51
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didn#t know you're historian

now the prize question - apart from the dodecade 33-45, what about German history has ever been bad? what? well? nothing

what are 12 years, we rule

	08-01-2002 00:02									#52
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1919-1933 was pretty bad part of German history as well...

	08-01-2002 00:05									#53
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bah

	08-01-2002 01:05									#54
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Best: Cultivation of crops begins.

Worst: The emergence of nationalism.

	08-01-2002 01:24									#55
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Young nation throws off yoke of the old world, defeats Britain, and adopts US Constituition, a document still revered to this day.

George Washington, first President, declares that 2 terms are enough, 8 years is long enough for one man to rule a nation, and breaks with thousands of years of human history by turning his back on power.

Infant US Navy stands tall vs the French and Napoleon and humiliates France in several navel engagements known as the "XYZ" affair (1798)

Young America refuses to play blackmail to Barbary states, says things like "Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute!", sends it's small navy to fight, and eventually defeats the barbary states (1805-1815)

Small Navy hands Britain humiliating defeats in war of 1812, both on high seas and great lakes.

Fulton builds first practical Steam boat

James Monroe tells old world to stay out of American politics, or it's war! (Monroe Doctrone)

US anti-slavery patrol in caribean begins first federal attempt to end this evil trade (1820s)

US Merchant marine rules the seas for over a century (starting in 1820s)

Young nation freely welcomes immigrants from political turmoil in europe, grows rapidly (1840s)

US rapidly industrializes, builds railroads, and is powerhouse economy that controls 60% of world exports by 1900

US is home to free thinkers and inventors, such as Thomas Edison, the "wizard of Menlow park", who invents practical electric lights, phonograpghsm and many other things.

US is home to many inventions, such as typewriters, zippers, machine tools, the list is endless.

Teddy Rosevelt practically by himself creates wildlife conservation, and puts natural history on the map.

US forces tip balence of power in WWI, allowing allied victory.

USA enables allies to again win, this time WWII, without US help Soviets would have collasped (before anyone shoots their mouth off, USA was providing 70% of all foodstuffs, 80% of all uniforms, 95% of motor transport, 30% of all armor, 40% of al aircraft, amonug other things to Soviets, and similar numbers to Britain)

US, almost single handed, defeats Japan, and frees asia from Japanese rule

USA selflessly offers to rebuild world under "Marshall plan"

America time and again upholds treaties and assists it's allies (Korea, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, ect)

Americans always assist other nations with handouts, most of which are never repaid (only now does Europe give more, USA shouldered this burden for decades with little or no help)

USA shoulders the load for the defense of the free world during cold war, enabling Europe's econmy to recover, and eventually surpass USA's

Great advances in medical science are made in usa (Plasma, Penicillan, first heart transplant, so many others)

USA puts first man on the moon, greatest scientific acchivement in world history.

There are tons more, but I'm to lazy to type more just now.

	08-01-2002 01:29									#56
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I especially like your description of the Marshall Plan as "selfless".

	08-01-2002 01:35									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase I especially like your description of the Marshall Plan as "selfless".

It's also true.

The USA could have done what Britain and France did after the great war, and make the axis pay out it's ass, which, BTW, was standard european behavior after wars for centuries, but the US say how counter-productive such things are, and as a result, Europe is now at peace for 50+ years, is an economic powerhouse, and views wars as unthinkable.

Not bad for a few Cowboys and Yanks to pull off.

	08-01-2002 01:37									#58
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For the US:

Best moment:
- Independence
- Victory in WW2, dropping of the Atomic Bombs
- Victory in the Cold War
- All the technological accomplishments

Worst moment:
- The Great Depression
- Vietnam Debacle
- 9/11


For China:
Best moment:
- Imperial expansions under the Qin and Han Dynasties
- Economic and scientific advances under the Tang and Song Dynasties
- Dropping of the Atomic Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
- Economic boom in the 90s.

Worst moment:
- The entire Ming Dynasty
- Boxer Rebellion
- Japanese invasion
- Mao's psychosis during the 60s and 70s.

	08-01-2002 01:39									#59
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quote: What's so great about the Whisky Rebellion?

Free people pursuing their own happiness in their own way — libertarianism comes alive.

-----

Chris:

Great lists. I wish your bad list had included the murders at Kent State, Waco, and Ruby Ridge.

	08-01-2002 01:44									#60
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Fit Kent state in with Nixon, the other two with Clinton.