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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Transcend
For the US:
Best moment:
- Victory in WW2, dropping of the Atomic Bombs
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What a degrading attitude. But I'm not surprised by you anymore. You're an inhumane being.
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Drago Sinio
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New Jersey, USA
Oct 1999
time: 05:17
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I agree with Chris's list, but would differ on Harry Truman. For one thing, blaming Truman for the Soviet's taking eastern Europe, while not giving him credit for the Truman Doctrine or the Marshall plan is unfair to old Harry. He could easily have called it the Truman plan, but gave the credit to Marshall. By the time Truman came to power things in Europe were fairly well settled anyway, The Soviets were more or less already there, with troops and tanks. If you want to blame someone - Look to FDR for that.
And lets not forget Trumans early recognition of Israel, over the objections of the State Dept. . They were afraid of losing access to Arab oil because of it, but Harry did it anyway.
Furthermore President Trumans decision to use the A-bombs brought the war to an end , perhaps as much as a year earlier, saving untold hundreds of thousands of lives. Both Japanese and American.
Good job, Harry! And thank you.
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ranskaldan
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Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:17
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Mmmm.... I've lived in three countries, so I'll do all three.
China
BEST
- The Tang Dynasty, when China was really immensely powerful from all aspects, comparable to the United States today.
WORST
- Mao's insanity, 1957-1976. About 50,000,000 people died as a result of his mad, bizarre, and puzzlingly incoherent actions.
Interestingly, Mao's regime led to an increase of population. Mao declared that China needed more people ( ) and started a fertility campaign. China's population tripled and since then it has such an immense problem today with feeding everyone. (thus the One-Child Policy.)
Singapore
BEST
- Its amazing development in the seventies, eighties, and nineties.
WORST
- The Japanese Occupation, 42-45.
Canada
BEST
- Passchendaele etc.
WORST
- totally no idea. I've only been in Canada for 4 months... so see the many, many Canadians before me who've responded to this.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:17
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 08-01-2002 03:07
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#67
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I'll only do the Best 'cuz I'm sure y'all are sick to death of hearing the bad...
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Got spare money?
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things from me.
Americans show their best when tossing off the yoke of tyranny.
The quintessential example is the strike. America's long history of labor militancy makes the strike exemplary of American ideals.
As to specific events: The Bill of Rights, the Whiskey Rebellion, Nat Turner's Rebellion, the Anti-Renter movement, Dorr's Rebellion, the Underground Railroad, the 13th-15th Amendments, the Farmer's Alliance, the Anti-Imperialist League, the Worker's Councils during the Depression, the American people volunteering to fight fascism, the American people who fought the various drafts, the Civil Rights revolt of the 60's and the subsequent legislation, and the anti-war protests against Viet Nam.
quote:
["I especially like your description of the Marshall Plan as "selfless".]"
It's also true. |
To quote the ambassador to Russia in 1944, Harriman, "Economic assistance is one of the most effective weapons at our disposal to influence European political events in the direction we desire..."
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Xeones
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USA
best - the start of the revolution. more the start than the end. it looked like pretty bad odds when it began, yet americans perservered.
worst - genocide of american indians ("manifest destiny"). followed closely by the entire history of slavery. something in me is more offended by what americans did to the natives, though.
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KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:17
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Best: Canada's Hundred Days in WWI, institution of nationalised health care, stoning of the governor's carriage in Montreal in 1836 (the idea of the Crown granting responsible government to colonies is first planted here), labour movement of the 30's, a slightly enlightened attitude to Natives starting in the 19th century (sure we did a whole shitload of bad stuff, but we tended to be better than other Europeans on the continent had been), invention of insulin, the telephone etc., 1954 Suez Crisis, War of 1812
Worst: English subjugation of the French minority in Canada followed by French subjugation of the English minority in Quebec, the ignoring of civil rights during the October crisis, smallpox infected blankets for the Inuit (and the like), fascist sympathies in Quebec and suppression of anything even vaguely leftist (Padlock Law and Duplessis' entire reign), worse handling of the Depression than the US saw.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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quote:
New England tries to get the USA to invade Canada as a responce to England's "Orders in council", starting war of 1812 |
Say what? New England tries to get the US to invade Canada? You flunk American history? The reason Canada was invaded in Michigan (by Harrison) was because New England REFUSED to participate in the war. The easy way to do it would have been through New England, but those states refused to call up their militias, and even talked about succession at the Hartford Convention because they were so against the war with England (being almost fully Federalist).
New England trying to invade Canada is one of the funniest things I've seen on this board, Chris  .
quote:
Wilson allows Lyodd George and Clemenceau to push unfair treaty on Germany, which lead directly to Hitler and the second world war, US congress reacts by refusing to join league of nations, dooming it to faliure. |
Allows? What do you think he should have done, threatened to invade? Britain and France could have done what they want, especially since the US wasn't technically an Allied Power (Wilson signed on as an Auxilliary Power, because he didn't want to be seen as taking sides for the spoils of war... Hell, he didn't even want the war in the first place).
Realizing that he couldn't get the treaty he wanted, he pushed all out for the League of Nations, which could have worked if he wasn't so unyielding at home.
quote:
Truman allows Stalin to take all of Eastern Europe, begining cold war, which will not end till 1989 (1945) |
Once again, allows? Were we to invade? And as stated, if anyone should be blamed, it is FDR, who already divided up Europe with Churchill and Stalin.
quote:
US fails to properly assist Chinese nationalists, Communists take China 1947-48 |
It would have been Vietnam times 10. Propping up an unpopular, brutal warlord in the face of a popular (even if Communist) movement. Disaster in the making.
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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I'll start with the bad, then work up:
Worst (in descending order of shamefulness):
Extermination of the Indians
Slavery
Jim Crow
Persecution of Asian Americans, both in the 19th century and WWII
Occasional political repression (of tories, socialists, etc.) (not as widespread as chegitz thinks,  )
Supporting bad people abroad (but not as much as Ramo thinks, )
Persecution of various immigrant groups (Irish, Italians, Jews)
Best moments(chronological order):
Declaration of Independence
Signing of Constitution
Emancipation Proclamation (the whole civil war, really)
World War II, especially the liberation of the concentration camps.
Civil Rights Movement
Containment and defeat of the USSR
and generally, allowing in so many immigrants and giving them so many opportunities. I'm grateful every day that my great grandfather chose to come to this country.
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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some highlights from Jewish history (hey, Israel's only a small part of it):
The bad:
- Internal divisions and civil war in ancient times.
- Drawing secular authorities into religious disputes in the Middle Ages
- Jews who turned to Socialism, Communism, and other movements which tried to end anti-Semitism through assimilation.
- Labor Zionists in Ottoman and mandatory Palestine concentrating on getting Socialist Jews into Israel when Vladimr Jabotinsky understood the need to "liquidate the diaspora before it liquidates you."
- Labor Zionist attempts to crush religion and the persecution of Sephardi Jews in Israel - this is a bad reflection not just on Israel, but on all the Ashkenazi Jews who bought into it. It was people like my grandparents who were being told that money needed to be raised to help "cave dwelling Morroccan immigrants who do not know how to use a toothbrush."
The good:
- The Maccabees
- The Habad movement and its struggle against state-enforced atheism and tyranny in the USSR.
- Jewish unity. There's something special about people who speak different languages and who have never met before treating each other like family.
- Related to that, the speed with which Jews from diverse lands have come together in Israel. It's really inspiring.
- Jews who fought for the human rights of non-Jews, like those who participated in the Civil Rights movement, or certain Israeli politicians today. (not the "peace camp," but people who really care(d), like Zeevi, Gafni, etc.) - these people are a testimony to the fact that Jewish unity doesn't mean a complete disinterest in non-Jewish affairs.
Last edited by Natan on 08-01-2002 at 06:52
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by El Awrence
For a historian, Chris, I find some of your statements incredibly biased and ignorant and based purely on national jingoism. |
You know Martin, sometimes you surprise me with your stupidity. 
When it comes to history, you don't know Jack.
And for the record, I find your half-assed leftest attitude both childish and annoying.
quote:
And just to nit pick I believe that the first heart transplant was performed in South Africa (or was it the first ever transplant, I can't remember) and Penicillin was developed in Britain pre WWII. |
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Egenedong/httx/harttx.htm
http://inventors.about.com/gi/dynam...%2Dtext/77.html
Next case:
quote:
Say what? New England tries to get the US to invade Canada? You flunk American history? The reason Canada was invaded in Michigan (by Harrison) was because New England REFUSED to participate in the war. The easy way to do it would have been through New England, but those states refused to call up their militias, and even talked about succession at the Hartford Convention because they were so against the war with England (being almost fully Federalist). |
Actually Imran, several New England MERCHANTS refused, and if you knew what you were talking about, you would understand that invading canada from New England in 1812 was geograpically almost impossible.
You can take that foot from your mouth any time, and keep in mind the serious effort was made on the NY front, where NY Militia under Renselaar refused to cross the border, only regular US forces crossed.
Here is an excellent account, by someone who was there:
http://www.militaryheritage.com/queenstn.htm
quote:
New England trying to invade Canada is one of the funniest things I've seen on this board, Chris . |
Still laughing?
I was at your post. 
Next case:
quote:
Allows? What do you think he should have done, threatened to invade? |
Showing some backbone would have been nice, and considering how much Britain and France owed the USA in war debts, in real politik, Wilson had tremendous leverage, but was far to timid and a dreamer to use it.quote:
Britain and France could have done what they want, especially since the US wasn't technically an Allied Power (Wilson signed on as an Auxilliary Power, because he didn't want to be seen as taking sides for the spoils of war... Hell, he didn't even want the war in the first place). |
They did do exactly what they wanted, leading to uncle Adolph and his Nazi follies.
quote:
Realizing that he couldn't get the treaty he wanted, he pushed all out for the League of Nations, which could have worked if he wasn't so unyielding at home. |
And Congress told him to stick it where the sun doesn't shine.
quote:
Once again, allows? Were we to invade? And as stated, if anyone should be blamed, it is FDR, who already divided up Europe with Churchill and Stalin. |
Stop playing the fool, Imran, you should know better.
Russia was in rotten shape in 45, and could not have stood up to force of arms, and Stalin knew it.
FDR started the problem, but Churchill was totally against giving in to Stalin on Poland and several other areas, and Churchill's replacement, Atlee, was far more concerned with England's internal problems.
quote:
It would have been Vietnam times 10. Propping up an unpopular, brutal warlord in the face of a popular (even if Communist) movement. Disaster in the making. |
Non-sense.
Mao only picked up support through the many battlefield failures of Kai-shek.
His support in 47 was no stronger then Kai-shek's, and was nonexistant in the south.
Better supported (say, through US airpower), the Communists would have stood boxed in the north west.
Another Vietnam times ten my ass!
quote:
And oh so forward looking |
You know, IW, you have been dogging my ass a lot lately, if you have a point, make it.
quote:
Good as the moon landing was, it was 70% political, and 25% huge ****-off rockets, as scientific acheivements go, it was nowhere near the greatest. |
Showing your ignorence boy.
At least 30 different sci breakthroughs (Such as Computers, Microwave tech, and velcro, just to name three came, to see nothing of things like freeze dried food and such).
Not bad for 75% political.
quote:
To quote the ambassador to Russia in 1944, Harriman, "Economic assistance is one of the most effective weapons at our disposal to influence European political events in the direction we desire..." |
Interesting quote, Ramo, considering it was made BEFORE they even came up with the plan, so as to make it irrelivent.
Harriman did serve as truman' secretay of commerce, as a matter of interest.
Nice try at taking a quote out of context to attack a postion, BTW, but no dice.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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deleted,
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Dr. Nick
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Mola mazo!
Oct 2000
time: 01:17
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quote:
USA selflessly offers to rebuild world under "Marshall plan" |
Alright, jingoism 1. Selflessly. Indeed, I am sure the US did it out of the bottom of their hearts as opposed to trying to counter Soviet economic expansion and the prevent the expansion of communist ideas in nations where traditionally communism had been quite popular, particularly all over Europe east of the Rhine. Added to that, I am sure Marshall was not thinking about all these European nations purchasing American goods and paying interests on American loans during the recovery, oh no, I'm sure they didn't. As a historian you should know that bias is unacceptable. Jingoism and nationalism based assumptions are even worse.
The Marshall plans were undertaken because the USA didn;t want Soviet influence to expand in Europe. If the Germans, French, British and Italians hadn't been given a chance to reconstruct, the might of Soviet arms or the influence of communist ideas in a miserable society, particularly in Germany and Italy where the people had taken the worst hits, would have probably added Germany and Italy to the tally of Warsaw Pact nations later. Also, the US knew that Europe was going to pay back these loans with interest. The US also knew that Europe was going to have to buy new capital goods from the US. The Marshall plans benefited the US and aided them in their own recovery as well.
quote:
USA puts first man on the moon, greatest scientific acchivement in world history |
I don't see how wasting money just for some person to be planting footsteps on a desolate area with no real value can be classified as the greatest scientific achievement of all time. Space travel and space programs is one thing, putting man on the moon is another. Skylab was a bigger achievement than Apollo 11 from the by products of space travel technology concern us.
quote:
The USA could have done what Britain and France did after the great war, and make the axis pay out it's ass, which, BTW, was standard european behavior after wars for centuries, but the US say how counter-productive such things are, and as a result, Europe is now at peace for 50+ years, is an economic powerhouse, and views wars as unthinkable. |
quote:
They did do exactly what they wanted, leading to uncle Adolph and his Nazi follies. |
From the sociological point of view, you must realise that Woodrow Wilson and Truman were able to think more coldly about the issue. Large parts of Britain and France had been laid to waste, the civilian population had suffered in person the tragedy of both wars.
Also from the sociological aspect, you of all people should understand the "revenge" attitude in a society that has been distraught in war. Remember American "we will bomb Afghanistan and turn it into a parking lot" after September 11th 2001. It only stands to show that the European need for revenge was just as natural than the American one after September 11th. In fact, I'd go as much as to say that if the Americans had that revenge attitude as a society after a small incident like that (small in comparison to the two world wars) it only stands to reason that Europe wanted revenge in Versaille and after WWII where France and Britain and Russia had lost tens of millions of men.
To reply to your reply, I find it distasteful that you label me as ignorant on history. I may not take history classes but I pride myself in having read and researched a lot of history and I can safely assert that no actions are done out of the bottom of anyones heart.
On the penicillin part I found the following:
quote:
In 1928, while working on influenza virus, he observed that mould had developed accidently on a staphylococcus culture plate and that the mould had created a bacteria-free circle around itself. He was inspired to further experiment and he found that a mould culture prevented growth of staphylococci, even when diluted 800 times. He named the active substance penicillin. |
http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laurea...leming-bio.html
About the transplant I was wrong, the first transplant was in South Africa, and it was kidney.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Assur
You have to remember that the atrocities you speak of were comitted under King Leopold II and at that time the Congo wasn't a Belgian colony, it was the private property of King Leopold II until he died in 1909.
I am not aware of any major atrocities between 1909-1960, when the Congo was a Belgian colony. |
Interesting. Something like 10 million people are killed in the Congo, but the perspective is that these murders were done by the Belgium king and his Belgium employees, but not by Belgium people nor Belgium the country.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:17
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For Canada:
The Best:
- The decision to allow French-Canadians to retain their language and religion after the defeat of New France. This sets the stage for Canada being a place where two dominant cultures live side-by-side in peace, a situation that is all too rare in this world. Admittedly, this decision is made by the English, but it can qualify as a Canadian event.
The worst:
- Definitely not the NEP (National Energy Policy)
- The treatment of First Nations people. These people were murdered (in at least one case, an entire nation - the Beothuks- was destroyed), had their land stolen, their culture destroyed, and yet they were better treated than native people in the States.
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I believe that the first heart transplant was performed in South Africa (or was it the first ever transplant, I can't remember) and Penicillin was developed in Britain pre WWII.
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