07-01-2002 17:30									#1
	Analyzing a Firaxis statement Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

In this thread at CivFanatics, Dan Magaha made the following statement:

quote: Nobody is "hiding". I answer questions when I know the answers and help people where I can. What we won't do is get into arguments or name-calling matches with people who've obviously already made their minds up. My comments about expectation management, though thoroughly unpopular, are still dead on. We made the mistake of sharing too much too soon, before we were 100% sure of many things, and we were taken to task for it. This is a mistake I'm sure we won't be in a hurry to repeat.

First and foremost, I applaud Dan for the plain and unequivocal language. I don't think it will be possible to misinterpret the statement. And we have no need to search the interstices for penumbras. The syntax is unambiguous.

-----

Nobody is "hiding".

As I see it, this means that Firaxis has not closed its mind to the playing community. At least, that's what I hope it means. A person who is not hiding can pretty much see what's going on around him.

I answer questions when I know the answers and help people where I can.

With all due respect, I would refer Dan to about a bazillion questions that stand unanswered, like this one about the Foreign Advisor screen.

In fairness to Dan, I wonder whether his problem is that the questions are so spread out all over the boards. I wonder whether it might be helpful if they were harvested into a compendium.

What we won't do is get into arguments or name-calling matches with people who've obviously already made their minds up.

Well, I think that that's as plain an explanation as any for why my own questions and comments go unanswered. I don't doubt that I appear to be a person whose mind is made up.

However, in fairness to me, it has not always been this way. If I were in Dan's shoes, I would wonder what happened with me (and people like me) who used to be staunch defenders of Firaxis and are now severe critics.

Sometimes, asking questions can be as important as answering them.

My comments about expectation management, though thoroughly unpopular, are still dead on.

That sounds vague on first blush, but it isn't if you know the context of the rest of the thread. What he means by "expectation management" is the management of what Firaxis perceives as a tendency for peoples' expectations to increase in proportion to the amount of information they are able to obtain.

For example, people are lifting quotes from the Civ3 website about multiplayer and so forth, and then holding the developers' feet to the fire for promising more than they delivered.

As anyone knows who's ever worked in a software house, there is a tendency (typically from the higher-ups and sales) to respond to any question that begins "Can your software...?" with "You betcha!" My heart truly goes out to developers who must work under these conditions.

We made the mistake of sharing too much too soon, before we were 100% sure of many things, and we were taken to task for it.

I'm going to come back to this, but therein lies the crux of what so exasperates me about Firaxis. But let's let the man finish.

This is a mistake I'm sure we won't be in a hurry to repeat

Okay, there it is.

What they don't want to do is make any statements that can be perceived as promises of delivery.

-----

Now, back to this:

We made the mistake of sharing too much too soon, before we were 100% sure of many things, and we were taken to task for it.

I'm sure that Shiggy (we can't use his real monicker here because, apparently, a once popular carpet is a bad word in some province or another) and others will twist what I'm about to say into the strawman of their liking, but here goes neverthess.

Dan, you've gone from the devil to the deep blue sea.

This is sharing too much: Our next patch will enable you to group units together so you don't have to move them one at a time.

But this is sharing too little: We will make a statement when we feel like we have something to say.

Between those two extremes, I think you will find that people like me, Venger, Yin, and others, would greatly appreciate something along these lines: We agree with you that unit movement is responsible for a lot of late-game tedium, and that is one of the items that we're looking at, but here is why it might be problematic [...snip...].

From our perspective (we've heard yours, now please hear ours) it looks like you've gone from promising the moon to pretending that no one is out here.

If you answer no other question, then please answer this one: What harm would it do if Firaxis were to let people know what it agrees with and what it doesn't, i.e., what it thinks is important, and what it is considering looking at without making any promises on what it will deliver?

	07-01-2002 18:09									#2
	Re: Analyzing a Firaxis statement Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian But this is sharing too little: We will make a statement when we feel like we have something to say.

actually, they are saying : we will make a statement when we have something certain to be done to announce

you are afraid that others will twist your words when you twist the word of others

	07-01-2002 18:21									#3
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Fair enough, Mark. I stand corrected.

	07-01-2002 18:27									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't have to twist any words. Your pathetic little arguments stand out on their own.

With threads like this I wonder why anybody from Firaxis would even spend any time here.

	07-01-2002 18:47									#5
	Re: Analyzing a Firaxis statement Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Between those two extremes, I think you will find that people like me, Venger, Yin, and others, would greatly appreciate something along these lines: We agree with you that unit movement is responsible for a lot of late-game tedium, and that is one of the items that we're looking at, but here is why it might be problematic [...snip...]. .... If you answer no other question, then please answer this one: What harm would it do if Firaxis were to let people know what it agrees with and what it doesn't, i.e., what it thinks is important, and what it is considering looking at without making any promises on what it will deliver?

what would be the point of making such a statement? would it change anything in what you or me or any other civer would like to see in the future? saying that something is easy or difficult has nothing to do with saying that it will or will not be done. you're making a fuss for something not really usefull


usefull information for all civers at this point is "feature X will be added in the next patch due next month"
explanations of game mechanics and preferences of developers are simply interesting to a smaller minority who like to hear about such things....

	07-01-2002 18:53									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I want to make it clear here to anyone willing to listen that I am not baiting, nor complaining, nor trying to do anything at all other than resurrect my hope for some communication with Firaxis.

Despite my extreme skepticism and general bad feelings, I tried to emphasize what I believed to be good signs from Dan's quote. Anyone who cares actually to read the OP can see this. Alas, we tend to see whatever it is we're looking for.

I disagree that I am asking for something useless, thank you. It is important, as far as I am concerned, to know whether they are even considering addressing certain problems.

If salvaging me and others like me is of any interest to Firaxis, then trust me on this: now is the time.

	07-01-2002 18:54									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by ShruggyRA I don't have to twist any words. Your pathetic little arguments stand out on their own.

Sorry, sweeping dismissals only work when you're way ahead. Much like Libertarian is unto you.

	07-01-2002 19:05									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Define "way ahead".

Are you judging by volume? or quantity?

	07-01-2002 19:14									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Sh*ggy, I wish that at least in this instance, I could make peace with you. I believe that I've demonstrated a willingness to change my mind and to acknowledge correction when I err. This is your opportunity to resist lashing out. In your heart of hearts, does it not matter to you whether any of our concerns are even under consideration?

	07-01-2002 19:43									#10
	if i were the developer? Got spare money?

i'd read fans' forums and collect info and throw in a lil resources to polish up the game

it's true that the "screaming" fans are the minority
but are they really?

most would just buy, play, trash and rely mostly on the "scamming" reviews

it is the fans that take time and "whine" at what's bad and should be improved and let (remind?) the developers what is needed to be done

take mods (for any games) as an example
if u ever try play them and compare w/ the originals
some mods are superior to the original package... even only with a bit of adjustment here and there
but small adjustments do add up, don't they?

but then again, the developers don't have time to play their own games (and ones that's been modded), LoL

most ideas start from forums, then someone scrouge them up and put them together

however, these goodness are usually go unheard by the casual players... and become irrevelent (sp?)

do u think the good mods are more balanced or the official release? i think the mods, since it's the players that play the game more and spend countless amount of time turning it upside down

well, this is getting to long, i'll just stop here or yak on forever, hehe

just my thoughts...

	07-01-2002 20:14									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Libertarian,

Almost every game related point you have presented is a good, valid suggestion. Right now I honestly can't think of any game suggestion that I disagree with. (Though I reserve the right to disagree with the level of importance.)

To quote myself:

quote: The game is not that bad and is playable as is. Sure there are lots of improvements to be made and the programmers have demonstrated that they are working on some of the things even if they can't say anything specific. All of this takes time and don't forget that we have had 3 major holidays since the game was released (in the US anyway).

I do majorly disagree the way you rip on Firaxis and twist whatever they say (or don't say). I disagree with the way you make to many threads into you own personal whine fest.


But, maybe it's me that's being difficult. I tend to get a little annoyed with complaints. It's my background in the US Air Force and the way I was raised. "If you don't like something, either fix it or move along."

To that end I apologize for anything that I have said that may seem as an attack on you or your suggestions.

	07-01-2002 21:52									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by ****gyRA It's my background in the US Air Force and the way I was raised. "If you don't like something, either fix it or move along."

Though i generally agree with your statement, the only way this could be possible was if someone from firaxis pulled a "Falcon 4.0"
i.e. released the source code, which is probably not going to happen.


What's with not being able to write Sh4ggy??

Freaking pm btch censorship.

	07-01-2002 22:37									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Lib, you might get get more response out of Firaxis if you were a little nicer. When you see a mistake or broken promise, you pounce on it like a rabid dog. The points you make about improving the game are valid ones, but sometimes your eagerness to be "right", and your obsession with thesaurus words comes off the wrong way.

Firaxis has made a few mistakes, but I sense good faith from Dan, Soren, etc. They aren't PR guys, they're web guys and programmers. They want Civ3 to be improved as much as everyone here at Apoyton. I don't think they spent last 3 years of their lives trying to make a shitty game. Lighten up a bit and I betcha communication will improve dramatically.

	07-01-2002 23:37									#14
	Remove this text

I believe that the points made about my abrasiveness with respect to Firaxis are correct. Duly noted. I should offer criticisms and suggestions for improvement for the software and stop criticizing the Firaxis employees. I'll make the effort to do just that from here on out.

With respect to the points made about my vocabulary, I'm afraid you're stuck with me there. This is how I speak and how I write. Changing this attribute would be too difficult. I cannot write if I must be conscious of morphing what I'm thinking into some alternate syntax.

Sorry.

	08-01-2002 00:01									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I like Lib's vocabulary.



It makes me think

	08-01-2002 00:50									#16
	Libertarian Not Playing Nice Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

HalfLotus:

Libertarian is like a jilted lover. I used to suspect he was sleeping with someone at Firaxis, his posts regarding their conduct were so positive and considerate.

All the poor man wanted was stacked movement, or at least a nonequivocal acknowledgement from Firaxis that they were working on the problem. He was initially ignored and then treated like a petulant child.

This forum is much more interesting and full of pathos than the game it discusses.

	08-01-2002 01:08									#17
	Tired of ads?

I agree with scientist - there was PRECIOUS LITTLE feedback from Firaxis to game concerns. Lib was a staunch defender of Firaxis and the game in general, but when all the questions that had popped up went unanswered, he finally turned on them.

If someone at Firaxis could spend just FIVE minutes answering questions, even every other day, you'd have an infinite improvement in the regard for their PR.

Venger

	08-01-2002 01:17									#18
	Put an end to popups!

I have agreed to refrain from criticizing Firaxians per se, and so I will. Instead, I will offer to compile the compendium that I mentioned earlier if I can be assured that the effort won't be wasted.

-----

Scientist:

Your discernment is keen.

	08-01-2002 01:39									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I said:

quote: Libertarian is like a jilted lover. I used to suspect he was sleeping with someone at Firaxis, his posts regarding their conduct were so positive and considerate.

To which Libertarian replied:

quote: Scientist: Your discernment is keen.

From which I can only conclude:

I can't believe it! So you WERE sleeping with someone at Firaxis! I meant it as a joke. I am shocked and appalled.

This forum is becoming an exercise in exposing moral, even criminal, turpitude. I may add that I frequently and notoriously jaywalk without remorse.

	08-01-2002 02:16									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, but we were sleeping ONLY.

	08-01-2002 02:59									#21
	Re: Analyzing a Firaxis statement Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Blah blah blah

SIGNAL--------------------------------------^--NOISE

	08-01-2002 03:11									#22
	Re: Re: Analyzing a Firaxis statement Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by jbrians SIGNAL--------------------------------------^--NOISE

HUMAN--------------------------------------^--JACKASS

Venger

	08-01-2002 03:27									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks, Venger. I highly value your affirmation.

	08-01-2002 03:28									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sigh...

AGAIN... can we at least "try" to eliminate the "personal" attacks.

	08-01-2002 06:21									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think everyone misses the point about Firaxis.

Human psychology was not invented yesterday. Boards have been stomping grounds for complaints since the internet began, there is no surprise at this. This one's actually fairly mild.

Firaxis knew what they had said. They knew what they were about to ship was not everything they had said. Do they really expect people to be cheering because the editor was junk - sheesh, spend ten minutes around here and tell me that modding isn't a big concern of a significant portion the community. Same with late game tedium. The people interested in these things are going to be disappointed, and once again, no surprise.
With all due respect to those who understand Firaxis' rock and a hard place in dealing with the community as it now stands, the ball WAS in their court. If they didn't expect disappointment with the editor they were fools - and I fail to see how anything they've done since the release shows they had any reasonable strategy for handling the disappointment they had to know was coming.

I'm sorry, this "it's the consumer's fault for not liking the right stuff" is bunk. I've watched game company after game company flounder on boards trying to deal with communities. I can respect the difficulties, but none seem to have any clue going in on handling what are very predictable situations.

"You shouldn't have complained, now we'll tell you nothing" doesnt cut it. Did they think it would?

If it were my company, some PR heads would roll.

	08-01-2002 08:26									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Precisely. And when they find themselves having to close their doors or lose even more talent, we'll still be here as the source of all their problems.

Pinheads.

	08-01-2002 10:25									#27
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by jackshot I'm sorry, this "it's the consumer's fault for not liking the right stuff" is bunk.

It's not that there are no legitimate gripes with the product. It's that the SAME people issue the SAME complaint 3 times a day and it just makes this forum far more noise than signal. It's like a bunch of attention-starved 12 year-olds in here.

Everyone realizes that the two major complaints are Editor flexibility and late-game tedium. Software development does not happen overnight. They are running a business and there is no sense telling people what is being worked on until it is done; expectation management is a genuine concern in this industry.

-Brian

	08-01-2002 12:29									#28
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by jbrians It's not that there are no legitimate gripes with the product. It's that the SAME people issue the SAME complaint 3 times a day and it just makes this forum far more noise than signal. It's like a bunch of attention-starved 12 year-olds in here.

That's what all forums are, it's messy stuff. You can't expect everyone here to act in an organized manner and present Firaxis with coherent, restrained, and well-phrased messages. You can't herd cats, and any information here is gathered on the hoof.

I could go on, it's just frustrating. What Firaxis should do now is so simple. Forget the gooblespeak and the fear and loathing. Decide you're going to release a patch that upgrades the editor. Civ is a community experience, the editor is stopping that from happening. Get that creation forum going. Announce patch. Release patch. Gear up for Xpack. Make money, why not?

Seems obvious to me, seem like it should have been obvious to any marketing strategy in October, that's what's so curious about the whole thing.

	08-01-2002 12:51									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

These types of threads are similar to watching starving rats eat each other. Entertaining at first, but it quickly degenerates into distgusting boredom.

	08-01-2002 13:05									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: but it quickly degenerates into distgusting boredom

Well, then it's on-topic for Civ3 discussion!