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Andrew1999
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
Washington
Polk
TR
LBJ
Nixon |
I'm a bit curious why you picked Polk. I know what he's noted for (Mexican War and surrounding events) but he's not usually put on "Top 10" lists.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:17
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quote:
Battle of Pavia in 1077 |
He deid in 1190 IIRC, so it would be pretty long a life if he lost at the Battle of Pavia in 1077 
A patronizing style like yours should usually be based on a bit of knowledge or at least concentration
quote:
Otherwise, I must say Konrad Adenauer was superb. He was primarily responsible for giving Germany a stable government after the War and helping Germany to its "Wirtschaftswunder". You Ossies may not appreciate him enough, but most Westgermans would nominate him for the top 5 German leaders ever. |
I'm not a right-wing conservative neo-fascist, therefore I see no good in Adenauer. For him, Germany ended at the Elbe, anything to the East of it was just barbaric fiefdom. Concerning the victors, Germany could have had unity in the 50s already hadn't Adenauer preferred to be part of the cold war. And that one would have had a completely different face without an iron curtain border within Europe. There actually wouldn't have been any direct west-east border had Adenauer accepted the unity proposal. But he preferred ideological flaming.
The Wirtschaftswunder was created by the American MArshall-Plan as well as the ability of Ludwig Erhard rather than an old fart's stubborn policies. The way you refer to East and West Germans gives evidence of your own political ignorance and your ideological stubbornity.
Any decent replies, please?
Maybe someone could recommend a 5th good ruler, or maybe someone can provide a halfway witty examination on why Barbarossa shouldn't be considered a great leader. If his name is kept as it is, he probably was not too bad a leader after all
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:17
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I don't know, I can't get myself to nominate a post-war chancellor... they're all so much 'modern politician'
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Transcend
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Boulder, Colorado, USA
Apr 1999
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecthelion
He deid in 1190 IIRC, so it would be pretty long a life if he lost at the Battle of Pavia in 1077
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Sorry, I mixed up that date with the Canossa one. BTW, everyone makes mistakes, including you. Next time, please spell 'died' correctly.
quote:
I'm not a right-wing conservative neo-fascist, therefore I see no good in Adenauer. For him, Germany ended at the Elbe, anything to the East of it was just barbaric fiefdom. Concerning the victors, Germany could have had unity in the 50s already hadn't Adenauer preferred to be part of the cold war. And that one would have had a completely different face without an iron curtain border within Europe. There actually wouldn't have been any direct west-east border had Adenauer accepted the unity proposal. But he preferred ideological flaming.
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If Germany had demanded any territories beyong Elbe, it would never ever have peace with its neighbors. You should consider the territory loss as a punishment for starting the WW2 and murdering 6 million Jews. Also, the Poles had already kicked all the Germans living there anyway. That area is today >90% Polish.
If Germany unified back in the 40s or 50s, Communist encroachment would be inevitable. That's why Stalin wanted the unification so badly. The division of Germany actually benefited West Germany which constituted 75% of the total Germany population.
quote:
The Wirtschaftswunder was created by the American MArshall-Plan as well as the ability of Ludwig Erhard rather than an old fart's stubborn policies. The way you refer to East and West Germans gives evidence of your own political ignorance and your ideological stubbornity.
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Do you really hold such a low opinion of Germany? If it were not for the hard-work German people and the smart economic policies of the government, "Wirtschaftswunder" would have never been possible. Britain and France received far far more Marshall Plan aids, yet their economy was overtaken within a decade by Germany. Why?
I never said Adenauer was solely responsible for the "Wunder", that's why I used the word "helping". Back in the beginning of 50s, dozens of economic theories were floating around, and you must give credits to Adenauer for picking Erhardt.
I stand by my definition of East and West Germans. In the West, you don't see gangs of Neo-Nazis patrolling inner-cities and bent on beating up anyone who don't look like Germans, and you won't find many claiming Adenauer was a Neo-Nazi.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:17
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quote:
Sorry, I mixed up that date with the Canossa one. BTW, everyone makes mistakes, including you. Next time, please spell 'died' correctly. |
exactly, everyone makes mistakes. and I'm not going to double-check my spelling because of you. what I said was: if you want to be patronizing, be correct as well
quote:
If Germany had demanded any territories beyong Elbe, it would never ever have peace with its neighbors. You should consider the territory loss as a punishment for starting the WW2 and murdering 6 million Jews. Also, the Poles had already kicked all the Germans living there anyway. That area is today >90% Polish. |
You have no idea what I'm talking about. Do you actually know which of the rivers the Elbe river is? The metaphor about Germany finishing at the Elbe for Adenauer means he actually cared for the western part of Germany only and didn't give a damn about the East. The territories you're talking about are those even farther to the East, Prussia and Silesia and the lot. After the Germans there were murdered and driven out after the war, there was no sense in getting them back anymore. Therefore, Brand di dthe right thing about them.
Learn more about geography before you treat me like your neighbour's son who tried to steal fruit of your trees
quote:
If Germany unified back in the 40s or 50s, Communist encroachment would be inevitable. That's why Stalin wanted the unification so badly. The division of Germany actually benefited West Germany which constituted 75% of the total Germany population. |
Care to elaborate? How would a politically neutral Germany be beneficial to Stalin? HE actually wanted it unified because he knew that a unified Germany that fights for the Western ideals would be more dangerous than a unified neutral Germany. I don't doubt the division actually benefitted to the west, but there are other ideals than only economy. But here we go again
quote:
Do you really hold such a low opinion of Germany? If it were not for the hard-work German people and the smart economic policies of the government, "Wirtschaftswunder" would have never been possible. |
I know. But I also know that had I raised this point for myself you'd have called me a racist, so thanks for pointing this out. It was the people, the US support and the government. And not an old fart.
quote:
Britain and France received far far more Marshall Plan aids, yet their economy was overtaken within a decade by Germany. Why? |
Superior blood, is that what you want to hear? It was the social market economy policies I suppose, but once again it was not an old fart.
quote:
I never said Adenauer was solely responsible for the "Wunder", that's why I used the word "helping". Back in the beginning of 50s, dozens of economic theories were floating around, and you must give credits to Adenauer for picking Erhardt. |
Fine, but you must give credits to... umm, you can create endlewss chains here.
quote:
I stand by my definition of East and West Germans. In the West |
Namely that West Germans are worth more than East Germans, I see
quote:
you don't see gangs of Neo-Nazis patrolling inner-cities |
Yes I do see them in the west. Do you think the whole movement originated in the East? Oh, our communist reign has ended. So let's become Neo-Nazis now...
quote:
and bent on beating up anyone who don't look like Germans, and you won't find many claiming Adenauer was a Neo-Nazi. |
I don't see any of those gangs here in the East either. This city, Cottbus, is said to be one of the worst. I have no problems, I see no gangs, so it can't be that bad over all
And I said Adenauer was a right-winger, a consie. Old fart even. Not that he was a Neo-Nazi.
On one hand you rub the Neo Nazi clichees in my face, I'd suppose the next step was calling me one. In the same post where you repell my statements about Adenauer. How lame.
The fact that you consider East Germans inferior beings to other people makes you nothing more but a racist. You should be ashamed. You belong into the same category as Wiglaf and faded glory (the one who used t ocall himself Saddam, remember), if not lower. But I know you take that as an honor
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08-01-2002 00:31
I can't think of any that really rise above the rest past the first two. 
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