12-01-2002 07:42									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld In a humane fashion. I don't know how the soldiers are being treated, it's very possible that they are being treated humanely, it's also possible that they aren't - I don't know. I was just saying that this thread is about inhumane conditions and that concern applies to everyone.

We will keep them fit and healty right up to the time we hang them.

quote: I believe you just quoted Saddam Hussien's reaction to 9/11.

The difference is, we mean what we say, he's a blowhard whose days are numbered.

	12-01-2002 07:42									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Regardless of their military status, they are human beings. This is not about wether they are mercenaries,

Actually if MtG is correct in his view of international law, they are being treated exactly in accordance with thier status in the Geneva Convention. Speaking of MtG, where is he? He'd be able to defend his views better than I.

	12-01-2002 07:46									#33
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I suppose none of you have noticed that the current prison is just a temporty facility being used, while the actual prison, built to more regualtion specifications, is being constructed nearby at the same base?

	12-01-2002 07:49									#34
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The WashingtonPost today specfically quoted the Colonel in charge of these prisions as saying "We are treating them within the bounds of the Geneva Convention."


So unless our government has been lying more than usual...

	12-01-2002 07:50									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Actually if MtG is correct in his view of international law, they are being treated exactly in accordance with thier status in the Geneva Convention. Speaking of MtG, where is he? He'd be able to defend his views better than I.

I don't care if it's legal. Treating anyone in a inhumane fashion isn't right, regardless.



P.S. Shouldn't you be attending a MtG fanclub meeting, or something?

	12-01-2002 07:55									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld P.S. Shouldn't you be attending a MtG fanclub meeting, or something?

My invitation seems to have been lost in the mail. Your overly moralistic attitude annoys me as well.

	12-01-2002 08:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Your overly moralistic attitude annoys me as well.

A propaganda field day for muslim extremists IMO - now they can tell billions in the world "Look, they are barbarians, just look at how they treat their prisoners!"

This is a sad day for the US IMO when the supposed protector of the free world resorts to this kind of inhumane treatment. This isn't just some grunt at Bat Guano Bay (although I sure he's enjoying himself immensely!), this goes all the way to the top and is sanctioned by the US government's inner circle! Frankly it makes me sick...

What worries me the most is what will ultimately happen to the men, after all with the secrecy of the Military Courts etc, will some of them end up 'disappeared' - not to mention the fact that 'interrogation' probably means 'torture'!

But it's OK as long as there's no obvious external damage eh - a little too much juice to the gonads, whoops! Oh well, we were gonna kill them anyway...

Frankly anyone who agrees with this kind of treatment, is no better than the Al-Qaeda themselves - the end result is likely to be the same...

	12-01-2002 09:43									#38
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Rumsfeld: The are not Prisoners of war. They are Unlawful detainee's.

It's unfortunate that such nitwits are occupying vital positions in the US cabinet.

Instead of walking the talk, to show the Islamic World that the US is A Good Guy, weasel attempts were made.

Is there any doubt why the Islamic World is largely antagonistic towards the US?

	12-01-2002 16:47									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Well Laz, this is basically the same argument as that other thread. They aern't POWs, no matter what the Red Cross or AI proclaim, they are criminals. Merc status is irrelevent. They only need be kept fed and sheltered till trial, and I wouldn't shed a tear for a one of them, because I've been in their front line, and seen what they do to innocents, so don't bother trying that argument with me, it will fall on deaf ears. They are but the first wave, and I'm for treating them as harsh as possible, I remember 9/11. They sowed this, let them reap it.

The spirit of your post hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. We are better than them.

That being the case, why blow it now that we've won (or are close to winning)? Having got this far we've got far more to lose than to gain by failing to observe the GC. Look at it this way- it's a powerful declaration of superior humanity to afford the prisoners decent treatment prior to their trial. We can only gain from it.

We all remember the attacks. No-one will forget them. Still, if some degree of positivity can be obtained from our actions now, then it's worth it. We approached this as a war. We fought this as a war. Why back off now?

	12-01-2002 17:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny The spirit of your post hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. We are better than them. That being the case, why blow it now that we've won (or are close to winning)? Having got this far we've got far more to lose than to gain by failing to observe the GC. Look at it this way- it's a powerful declaration of superior humanity to afford the prisoners decent treatment prior to their trial. We can only gain from it. We all remember the attacks. No-one will forget them. Still, if some degree of positivity can be obtained from our actions now, then it's worth it. We approached this as a war. We fought this as a war. Why back off now?

The war on terrorism is not won, nor is it close to winning. These fanatics believe that if they die while fighting the infidles then they go to heaven where there are many virgins for one man. They will take every chance given to them to kill, hurt, maim, or destroy anything that they think resembles the infidels. By not chaining them to their seats they would most certainly tried to crash the plane they were in. Yes, the prisons they are in currently are not anything at all close to humane, but you cant immediatly say we need a nice clean prison, and poof! its there. These things take time. Im sure when they finally get to cuba the living conditions will be better, however these people commited attrocities against not only other nations but their own people as well. Do they deserve better then they are getting?

A ex-marine at work said to me at work soon after sept 11th. Nuke them all and let God sort them out.

Also, one more thing to add.
They already killed many thousands Sept 11th and when we caught them then they killed more during a prison uprising.
So should we not do everything possible to keep them from uprising again?

You screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me.

	12-01-2002 18:10									#41
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One more thing to add,
The Geneva Convention is suppose to protect civilian during time of war. Didn't the Taliban and Al Qaeda already break this part of the treaty when they attacked NewYork City?

edit: spelling

Last edited by CB2034 on 12-01-2002 at 18:21

	12-01-2002 21:16									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny The spirit of your post hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. We are better than them.

No one with any brains denies this, Laz.

quote: That being the case, why blow it now that we've won (or are close to winning)? Having got this far we've got far more to lose than to gain by failing to observe the GC. Look at it this way- it's a powerful declaration of superior humanity to afford the prisoners decent treatment prior to their trial. We can only gain from it.

Any "reports" of the prisoners being treated poorly can be chalked up to the usual press BS, inventing a story when none really exists. We see it's effects in this thread, look at all the suckers who fell for the line already. Not one of them has any proof of wrong doing, yet there they are, screaming about how the US f*cked up here and there, how it will excite the Islamic world, excetera.
What a load of horse dung.
Only over-ripe bleeding hearts fall for that non-sense.
Remember the "reports" of US bombs killing civilians left and right that they were screaming about?
Turns out that was bull, just as I knew it was (if it was true, the left wing of the US Press would have eaten it up).
Many people here continue to apply their value system on the Islamic world. For the most part, they find kindness and sympathy to defeated foes as a sign of weakness. Look, really look, at how they treat each other and the outside world, and all these tears for the El Queda terrorists becomes as foolish looking as it truly is.

quote: We all remember the attacks. No-one will forget them.

Reading several of the dumb-assed comments in this thread, I doubt that.

quote: Still, if some degree of positivity can be obtained from our actions now, then it's worth it. We approached this as a war. We fought this as a war. Why back off now?

They will be treated fairly, the USA takes pride in that, unlike our euro friends, we have never mistreated those we capture on the battlefield (Watch, some dumb ass will try to interject some fantasy instance, totally unprovable, that I'm wrong here).
They are terrorists, they tried to kill us, they were defeated, now they will pay the price for their murderous ways, to the full extent of US law.
Nuff said.

	12-01-2002 22:20									#43
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Ehm, I saw the report on the BBC World News Report on television this morning. They are in cages exposed to the elements.

	12-01-2002 22:25									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS A propaganda field day for muslim extremists IMO

Who should be gald that we didn't summarially hand them over to the Northern Alliance for "interrogation."

	12-01-2002 22:28									#45
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And some of them suffer from a disease of the lungs (don't know the name in english).

I haven't seen them on TV so I don't have a picture of it.

I think that putting them in cages is the modern equivalant of having a thief walking with his head and hands in a wooden box amonst the streets like it was in the middle ages.

It provides a sort of"revenge" and a feeling of security to the american public seeing them like that in cages.

I think that is the real reason of them being handled like this.

	12-01-2002 22:34									#46
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Can someone answer me that one though: Why the hell in Cuba?!!!

Surely the US has secure places inside its terrotory so why there?

To piss off Fidel?

And how come the US has a base (the Gouantanamo?) in Cuba of all places?! How did that come about?

	12-01-2002 22:37									#47
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Can someone answer me that one though: Why the hell in Cuba?!!! Surely the US has secure places inside its terrotory so why there? To piss off Fidel? And how come the US has a base (the Gouantanamo?) in Cuba of all places?! How did that come about?

It's on a hostile island, surrounded by american soldiers who are surrounded by cuban soldiers with 234k land mines inbetween. Hard to escape.

Plus, in the USA, there are chances that al queda members here could organize an escape.

And yes, we enjoy giving Fidel the one finger salute.

	12-01-2002 22:38									#48
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It said at the end of the article I think that it was to avoid them from using recourses of American law. As they're in Cuban territory...

	12-01-2002 22:40									#49
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The US leased the Guantanamo base from Cuba a long time ago, when we still had friendly relations with the country. America was at Gitmo long before Castro came to power.

As for all this discussion of the Geneva Convention, does anyone have any actual proof that the US has violated the GC? Or is this all just unsupported speculation? I for one haven't heard of any US actions that I would consider banned by the GC. Making prisoners stay in outdoor cages certainly isn't cruel. Maybe if the cages were in Alaska, but not in Cuba.

	12-01-2002 23:09									#50
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Hi All--

Much of this thread revolves around exposing the detainees to the elements. I had problems with that too until I realized that Cuba has absolutely beautiful weather all of the time (well, unless they have a hurricane, but this isn't the season for that), so they aren't roughing it at all. Probably 80 degrees during the day, every day. 65 degrees or so during the evening.

That's more than humane, that's vacation!

edit: Havana weather right now--79 degrees F.

Last edited by DanS on 12-01-2002 at 23:18

	12-01-2002 23:11									#51
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A Briton is among the 20 al-Qaida and
Taliban prisoners being held at the U.S. military base in
Guantanamo, Cuba, the Foreign Office said Saturday.
«We can confirm that the U.S. authorities have informed
us that one U.K. national has been transferred to
Guantanamo,» a spokeswoman said on customary condition of
anonymity.


And there is also Walker. There also is an australian national.

Anybody else from other western countries?

	12-01-2002 23:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Hi All-- Much of this thread revolves around exposing the detainees to the elements. I had problems with that too until I realized that Cuba has absolutely beautiful weather all of the time (well, unless they have a hurricane, but this isn't the season for that), so they aren't roughing it at all. Probably 80 degrees during the day, every day. 65 degrees or so during the evening. That's more than humane, that's vacation! edit: Havana weather right now--79 degrees F.

DanS, no one argues about how beautiful Cuba is.

The point is wether it is acceptable for a country to hold prisoners exposed to the elements in cages. It is a matter of civility.

Now you are going to tell me it's better for their health than being inside a building where the air is bad...

That is not the point.

I stick with my modernized middle ages opinion about giving the american public a way to vent their anger at them

	13-01-2002 00:32									#53
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Chris,

quote: Any "reports" of the prisoners being treated poorly can be chalked up to the usual press BS, inventing a story when none really exists.

That pretty much sums it up.

paiktis,

quote: I think that putting them in cages is the modern equivalant of having a thief walking with his head and hands in a wooden box amonst the streets like it was in the middle ages.

That's not even close nor is it even fair. In those boxes, the purpose of them was to shame and punish the person in the box.

The purpose of what the US is doing to the prisoners is PREVENTION. Those guys would like nothing better than to take out some people and die doing it, so why give them the chance.

And again, how is a cage different from a cell? They aren't going to stay there the whole time, just while they are on the boat.

Maybe one of you so-called "humanitarians" ought to go serve as a guard on that ship and then see how you like it when those guys are treated "better."

Look in a prison and see how they transport violent offenders. It's EXACTLY the same, except in the prisons, they have the luxury of outnumbering the offender 5 to 1, and if something goes wrong they can call for backup. There are damn good reasons for having all those restraints, and even a prisoner with all of his limbs restrained who is barely able to walk can still kill a person.

Here on the ship, the guards are being way outnumbered, so if they feel they need to take extra precautions, by all means let them.

My country has done absolutley nothing wrong.

And some of you could give a damn about the prisoners, it's just fun to have something to criticize the US about, eh?

	13-01-2002 00:40									#54
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Geneva Covnention Shmeneva Convention. That conveniton did not forsee the type of warfare the terrorists are waging. I couldn't care if these terrorists are given their human rights or not.

	13-01-2002 00:42									#55
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Calm down Ted. As I've stated, I've no objection to restraints being used in transit. In fact, in the replies I see below this answer box, and those I remember outside of it, I don't think anyone has objected to this.

It's the treatment of those already on Cuban soil that I wrote about- something that could be avoided by 30 minutes work with a few sheets of chipboard. The responses I've received about those can be summed up as "It isn't happening and it's not that bad and they deserve it". I still don't see what's being gained by this treatment, whereas what's being lost is blatantly obvious.

	13-01-2002 00:52									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker And again, how is a cage different from a cell? They aren't going to stay there the whole time, just while they are on the boat.

Then why is DanS talking about the Cuban weather?

I had the impression they were to spend their time on Cuba in the cages?

During transport it can be justified, no objection there.

quote: Geneva Covnention Shmeneva Convention. That conveniton did not forsee the type of warfare the terrorists are waging. I couldn't care if these terrorists are given their human rights or not.

No comment.

	13-01-2002 01:26									#57
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quote: I still don't see what's being gained by this treatment

What's being gained is the safety of the guards. They are outnumbered and unlike most of the prisoners, actually want to live.

Given Al-Queda prisoners track record of wanting to kill themselves, they treatement they are being given is not only just but practical. I guarantee they are just dying to kill themselves and take some people out in the process:

quote: were described by task force commander Marine Brigadier General Michael Lehnert as the "worst elements" of the al-Qaeda terrorist network.

quote: Some appeared to resist as they got off the plane.

quote: At their detention camp, known as Camp X-ray, the prisoners will be isolated in temporary, individual cells with walls of chain-link fence and metal roofs, where they will sleep on mats under halogen floodlights.

quote: A new prison is being built at Guantanamo Bay to hold up to 2,000 prisoners behind razor wire.

So the US is so inhumane we took the time to actually build them a new prison? I bet we are building it so we can use new and improved, advanced torture methods in it? Yay!!!

quote: Amnesty International says it has heard reports the men were chained to their seats, hooded and sedated during the 8,000-mile flight.

This has been standard practice for transporting violent prisoners for years and years. There is a damn good reason for doing it too.

quote: It is reported that the prisoners had their beards shaved, for reasons of hygiene, prior to the 27-hour journey, a measure the ICRC says might constitute a breach of their human dignity under the convention.

They are complaining because THEY SHAVED THEIR BEARDS??? GIVE ME A ****ING BREAK!!!!

This article is totally reaching, and like Chris said, making news where there is no news.

	13-01-2002 02:11									#58
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I'm not surprised the US results to these means in the war against terrorism. Frankly, I expected a lot worse.

Question: what is the US going to do with all those POWs? It's obvious the verdict (guilty that is) is already known long before the actual trials. It's also obvious the POWs won't get any rights in US courts or tribunals. No questions there. But what will the penalty be? Will they all be executed after being found guilty? The allies didn't even do that after WW2, when most nazis weren't executed. Does someone have any ideas what will be done with them?


Anyway, once again, no surprises so far. I will be surprised when capital punishment isn't used (for a change), though we all know that won't happen. How civilized the US is huh? I actually doubt the rest of the west is much better though, but the line between what is civilized and what isn't is very, very thin line.

	13-01-2002 02:15									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L I'm not surprised the US results to these means in the war against terrorism. Frankly, I expected a lot worse.

Why? What international law have we violated?

	13-01-2002 02:24									#60
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Shi;

Geneva Covnention Shmeneva Convention. That conveniton did not forsee the type of warfare the terrorists are waging.

Probably not, but that doesn't change things. When you agree to a convention, you're supposed to actually abide the conditions set forth.

Ted Striker;

So the US is so inhumane we took the time to actually build them a new prison? I bet we are building it so we can use new and improved, advanced torture methods in it? Yay!!!

"We" are not doing anything, the American government is. But if conditions are acceptable, can you explain why there seems to be unwillingness to use a prison on American soil?

DinoDoc;

Why? What international law have we violated?

Again, you did not do anything, your gov't did. It might seem like a pet peeve of mine, and it probably is, but I'm confident that the usage of "we" in cases such as that adds to the us-and-them mentality.