13-01-2002 02:30									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Monk can you explain why there seems to be unwillingness to use a prison on American soil?

Why not put it on Cuban soil if it provides adequate security?

quote: Again, you did not do anything, your gov't did.

Now that we have the pedantic aside dealt with, could you tell me what international law the US government has violated?

	13-01-2002 02:33									#62
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS A propaganda field day for muslim extremists IMO - now they can tell billions in the world "Look, they are barbarians, just look at how they treat their prisoners!"

What do you think these muslims would do to Americans that they considered to be criminals? Do you think that anyone with a bit of sense would actually believe that they would be treated anywhere near as well as these people are being treated? American image will not change no matter how these people are treated. Your are assuming that muslims in that part of the world are told anything near the truth when it comes to America. Won't these be the same people who think it was a jewish plot to begin with? You expect them to have to view anything that the US does as good?

quote: This is a sad day for the US IMO when the supposed protector of the free world resorts to this kind of inhumane treatment. This isn't just some grunt at Bat Guano Bay (although I sure he's enjoying himself immensely!), this goes all the way to the top and is sanctioned by the US government's inner circle! Frankly it makes me sick... What worries me the most is what will ultimately happen to the men, after all with the secrecy of the Military Courts etc, will some of them end up 'disappeared' - not to mention the fact that 'interrogation' probably means 'torture'! But it's OK as long as there's no obvious external damage eh - a little too much juice to the gonads, whoops! Oh well, we were gonna kill them anyway... Frankly anyone who agrees with this kind of treatment, is no better than the Al-Qaeda themselves - the end result is likely to be the same...

You are talking like their fate is a fore gone conclusion. Do you have privilaged information that no one else has. I would think that the main reason that these people are wanted is to provide some kind of information. Do you think that the US would go through all the trouble of putting them in restraints, flying them half way across the world, spend no telling how many millions of dollars by building a prison, for the simple reason of doing away with them as soon as they get there. A far more effective means would be to get the info in Afghastan and dispose of them there in some valley somewhere. You are beggining to believe your own hype about the US, Mobius. That is what scares me.

	13-01-2002 02:40									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Calm down Ted. As I've stated, I've no objection to restraints being used in transit. In fact, in the replies I see below this answer box, and those I remember outside of it, I don't think anyone has objected to this.

It seems that somebody doesn't like it.
i would have hog tied those pr1cks to a pole upsidedown.

quote: It's the treatment of those already on Cuban soil that I wrote about- something that could be avoided by 30 minutes work with a few sheets of chipboard. The responses I've received about those can be summed up as "It isn't happening and it's not that bad and they deserve it". I still don't see what's being gained by this treatment, whereas what's being lost is blatantly obvious.

What is being gained is an object lesson to those who would murder for a "cause", you will be treated like you treat your victims, namely badly. Anyone who is assinine to feel sypathy for these devils is welcome to join OBL's crusade.
Another benifit of this object lesson is it will send the right message to Islamic militants, that the USA is through playing games, that the gloves are off.

I said all along that the Islamic states are blowhards, this sort of symbolism will go over perfectly there, they will see the tangible results of killing Americans, being put in cages till their deaths are decreed, not a country club vacation where they can live out the lives they stole from others in comfort and being well fed.

The problem is, a lot of you aern't tough enough to stand up to this filth, you wallow in hand-wringing agasnt about freedoms lost, while these punks actually steal the freedoms from you by their evil actions.

It's one thing to treat soldiers who surrender in battle honorably, and I'm all for that.
It's another to coddle killers who have sworn to kill me, my family, my friends, and my country.
For this scum, repay them in their own coin.

	13-01-2002 02:42									#64
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quote: We" are not doing anything, the American government is. But if conditions are acceptable, can you explain why there seems to be unwillingness to use a prison on American soil?

Seeing as how the American government is a representative body elected by its citizenry, and ultimatley accountable to them I consider "we" to mean us, me, we, Americans.


1) "The location is naturally defended by mangrove swamps, salt marshes and shark-infested seas, while hundreds of extra servicemen have been sent to the base. "

2) The location has been previously used to secure foreign prisoners.

3) Maybe they are bring kept away from the general population for their own safety. Remember when Timothy McVeigh was transported, he always wore a bullet proof vest. I'm surprised he was never assassinated.

	13-01-2002 02:42									#65
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Why not put it on Cuban soil if it provides adequate security?

So you think that it's purely because of the security issue? Surely the Americans would be capable of achieving 100% security someplace in America?

Now that we have the pedantic aside dealt with, could you tell me what international law the US government has violated?

I won't discuss this case before I know more about it. My comment was directed against your way of making the statement rather than whether it was true or not, but I didn't get the message across appropriately. But if we're talking generally, I'm sure I can manage to dig up a couple neat examples of US violations of international law.

	13-01-2002 02:49									#66
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Seeing as how the American government is a representative body elected by its citizen, and ultimatley accountable to them I consider "we" to mean us, me, we, Americans.

Okay, so if I discuss American war crimes in history with you, it would be valid for me to mention that you ruthlessly killed the Natives or something like that?

	13-01-2002 02:59									#67
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1) That was over 100 years the past, by a government that existed over 120 years ago and older, that I wasn't a part of, nor could take any action

2) Eurocoms already ruthlessly slaughtered most of the natives before the American government did anything

3) Unlike ANY European government, the US Government apologized for its actions and pays reparations TO THIS DAY to Native Americans

	13-01-2002 03:16									#68
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TS - Okay, so how far back can we go? You're not a part of the current gov't either, and you certainly cannot do anything about this.

	13-01-2002 03:20									#69
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Well, in my opinion I disagree.

If there is one thing that influences government, it's public opinion. People start making noise about things they don't like, the government will listen.

	13-01-2002 03:21									#70
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I'm not sure how better to explain it without going through a poly sci class or a civics class.

(One that would make Eurocoms throw up due to all the patriotic references and mention of the Consitution).

	13-01-2002 03:22									#71
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Call it a dream. I was lambasting the Taliban here two years before the WTC was hit. If I have any desire for our governments (and we're in this together, anyone crass enough to partake in cross-Atlantic sniping) it's to get as far away from the Taliban and all it represents as we possibly can.

As far as that dream goes, I can't see this being progress.

	13-01-2002 04:56									#72
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Can someone answer me that one though: Why the hell in Cuba?!!!

If there were to be brought to US sovereing territory, they would recieve additional legal proctetions beyond the minimun available to them as prisoners of the USA outside US sovereign territory. various laws and even parts of the USA Constituion distignguish be "any persons" and persons in USA Territory. The Guantanomo base is only leased territory to the USA, not sovereign territory. There are also security reasons. Access to Guantanamo is strictly controlled, and it has a 100% militarized and defenfended perimiter, with no civilian areas adjacient to it, redering it nearly impossible for anyone to make an unauthorized approach to the prison facilities. If they get of of their prison enclose, the prisoners are still 100% surrouned by a heavily garded defense zone with the most sophisticated mility surveliance.

	14-01-2002 14:49									#73
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What happened, Chrissie ? Your trolling became less BobDormanesque recently...

"They aern't POWs, no matter what the Red Cross or AI proclaim, they are criminals."

Which is not mutually exclusive.

"Many people here continue to apply their value system on the Islamic world."

We consider our value system to be universal. Or did your declaration of independence not only have an unwritten exception for blacks, but also muslims ?

"What is being gained is an object lesson to those who would murder for a "cause", you will be treated like you treat your victims, namely badly."

That will deeply impress suicidal fanatics. I suppose this mentality stopped the muslims from retaking Jerusalem after the 1099 incident ?

"The problem is, a lot of you aern't tough enough to stand up to this filth, you wallow in hand-wringing agasnt about freedoms lost, while these punks actually steal the freedoms from you by their evil actions."

Actually, people like you are the chickens here.

El A:

"They are in cages exposed to the elements."

If this is temporary until facilities are ready: Cry me an ocean.

	14-01-2002 15:28									#74
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There are a couple more reasons to hold them at Guantanamo, all of them security related.

In the past, the base had been used to train anti-Castro guerillas; thanks to that, and the fact that the base was a popular destination for refugees (certainly more convenient than going 90 miles across the sea to Florida), the boundary between the base and Cuban territory is one of the most heaviliy-fortified in the world. In addition to the American floodlights, snipers, macinegun and RPG emplacements, there are the Cuban floodlights, snipers, etc.

If there is one thing Castro hates more than Capitalists, it is Islamic extremists.

Then there are the landmines. Since there is always a chance someone could get past the guards (in either direction), Fidel thought it prudent to mine the boundary, and mine it he did. Lots and lots of mines. It is considered to be the most heavily mined strip of land in the world.

So, if a prisoner manages to get out of his cell, avoid all the patrols, evade the searchlights and dogs, and head toward the Cuban lines...Boom.

	14-01-2002 17:24									#75
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk There are a couple more reasons to hold them at Guantanamo, all of them security related. In the past, the base had been used to train anti-Castro guerillas; thanks to that, and the fact that the base was a popular destination for refugees (certainly more convenient than going 90 miles across the sea to Florida), the boundary between the base and Cuban territory is one of the most heaviliy-fortified in the world. In addition to the American floodlights, snipers, macinegun and RPG emplacements, there are the Cuban floodlights, snipers, etc. If there is one thing Castro hates more than Capitalists, it is Islamic extremists. Then there are the landmines. Since there is always a chance someone could get past the guards (in either direction), Fidel thought it prudent to mine the boundary, and mine it he did. Lots and lots of mines. It is considered to be the most heavily mined strip of land in the world. So, if a prisoner manages to get out of his cell, avoid all the patrols, evade the searchlights and dogs, and head toward the Cuban lines...Boom.

I agree with this but I would like to add something as well. IM thinkng that the reason they are not in America is because Americans would riot and kill them(the prisoners)
Do you know how hard it is to get to cuba from Amercia, there are no direct flights at all. And if your passport is stamped that you have been there when you try to get back to America, be ready for a long search. Being kept in Cuba is the safest place these prisoners can be kept!!!!!