12-01-2002 03:17									#1
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Before anyone gets excitable, this is not a US-bashing thread so don't treat it like one.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1754444.stm

The above link highlights concerns over potential breaches of the Geneva Convention in the handling of Al-Quadr prisoners. The report I've just seen on BBC TV news is more extreme- it gives a report on the prisoners being kept in cages exposed to the elements.

If this is true, I can't see it as anything other than a major mistake. If the allies are going to be the good guys, we've got to walk it like we talk it.

	12-01-2002 03:19									#2
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Rumsfeld: The are not Prisoners of war. They are Unlawful detainee's.


was watching breifing during lunch. Stufflebeam said, "These Detainee's are so fanatical they would Chew through the hydrolic's just to bring the plane down"

	12-01-2002 03:20									#3
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quote: Human rights groups have already expressed concern about treatment of the prisoners. Amnesty International says it has heard reports the men were chained to their seats, hooded and sedated during the 8,000-mile flight. They will be handled not as prisoners of war, because they're not, but as unlawful combatants Donald Rumsfeld "All those in US custody following the military operations in Afghanistan must be treated humanely, with full respect for international standards," an Amnesty statement said. And the International Red Cross (ICRC) said it regards the men - thought to number about 20 out of more than 350 in US custody - as prisoners of war who therefore have all the rights and privileges of POWs under the Geneva Convention. It is reported that the prisoners had their beards shaved, for reasons of hygiene, prior to the 27-hour journey, a measure the ICRC says might constitute a breach of their human dignity under the convention. Humanitarian observers US Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld declared the detainees were "unlawful combatants" and have no rights under the Geneva Convention. "They will be handled not as prisoners of war, because they're not, but as unlawful combatants," he said. Razor wire and shark infested seas ring the base But Jamie Fellner of Human Rights Watch said that every captured fighter is entitled under the Geneva Convention and international law to humane conditions of confinement. The ICRC says it plans to start visiting the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay early next week to ensure they are being treated humanely.

The report I saw also detailed prisoners being chained and sedated on the flights, which I can grudgingly accept, and being kept in exposed cages, which I can't.

	12-01-2002 03:22									#4
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Unlawful detainees? Quite possibly, but who's breaking the laws?

	12-01-2002 03:22									#5
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hmm well it is pushing the line I guess. I'd have to see the specifics of POW treatments. I only know the general stuff. But the safety of U.S. troops and the plane has to be taken into consideration. That's a highly dangerous thing transporting prisoners by aircraft. Watch the movie con air. yes I know it is a cheesy action flick. But it gives an indication of the dangers involved.

and you don't think the terrorists would bring the plane down? I would say they would under any circumstance they could. One already committed suicide. Death is better than being in U.S. custody.

	12-01-2002 03:27									#6
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Like I said, I don't object to them being chained and sedated on the flights- I'm operating under no illusions. However, if the TV footage is reliable, I wouldn't keep livestock in that "prison".

	12-01-2002 03:55									#7
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From what I've been able to understand from watching Roland's and MtG's conversation the whole issue revolves around weather or not the prisoners can be considered mercenaries.

	12-01-2002 03:59									#8
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are they being paid?

	12-01-2002 04:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat are they being paid?

Allow me to quote our esteamed moderator:

As far as al Qaeda members being classified as Mercs goes, it seems a bit strange to hinge it on compensation - they certainly are paid fighters, so would there be an issue hinging on whether they were smart enough to get paid well? And half the thing about being a merc is the sheer fun of it, not the pay.

You can find the rest of the arguement here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...30&pagenumber=5

	12-01-2002 04:12									#10
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some of them are Taliban soldiers aren't they? Surely they aren't mecs. But I suppose it is reasonable to classify Al Quida troops as mercs.

	12-01-2002 04:34									#11
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What makes the difference between a merc or a soldier under the Geneva Convention? Mercs could be considered volunteers, so even still they are owed the rights of the Geneva Convention, correct?

	12-01-2002 04:47									#12
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Regardless of their military status, they are human beings. This is not about wether they are mercenaries, soldiers, or potatoe farmers - it's about inhumane conditions.

	12-01-2002 04:52									#13
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One of the commanders in charge of the base said something to the effect that "It won't be comfortable, but it will be humane."

As long as they get food, water and medical care, they'll be fine.

	12-01-2002 05:08									#14
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you forgot shelter

	12-01-2002 05:10									#15
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I wouldn't call Al-Queda members human.

Mind you, I wouldn't have called the SS human, either.

	12-01-2002 05:13									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin I wouldn't call Al-Queda members human.

That's fine, because alot of them wouldn't call you human either. Just don't take the moral high ground when they don't treat americans as humans.

	12-01-2002 05:20									#17
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I notice you're unwilling to draw the connection between the Al-Queda and other scum.
We're not starving them. Be realistic. They're certainly willing to commit suicide to take down a US plane; they're not being starved or beaten. They're just sedated and chained while airborne. Life's tough.
Besides, they never considered us human. Remember, the evil america is the birth place of all evil!

	12-01-2002 05:22									#18
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I thought I remember reading that countries that don't sign the Geneva Convention aren't subject to its rules. Taliban never signed that.

However, I have no problem with this. These guys would love nothing better than die in a rebellion.

They aren't being beaten, just restrained. This type of treatment is general practice in US prisons, for the highly violent and volatile offenders. You might be suprised what guys in restraints can do to someone.

We've seen them in their prison riots, and we've also seen them dump grenades here and there.

They are being restrained, they aren't being tortured or beaten or starved.

	12-01-2002 05:25									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin I wouldn't call Al-Queda members human. Mind you, I wouldn't have called the SS human, either.

What a useless piece of pejorative nonsense. You don't have the ability to void your humanity through your actions, idiot.

	12-01-2002 05:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin I wouldn't call Al-Queda members human. Mind you, I wouldn't have called the SS human, either.

You need biology lessons. They may be bad humans, but humans they are.

EDIT: okay, KH said basically the same thing.

	12-01-2002 05:30									#21
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quote: EDIT: okay, KH said basically the same thing

Yeah, but I said it much more confrontationally.

	12-01-2002 05:43									#23
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Yeah, but I said it much more confrontationally.

Yeah you're right. Yours was much better.

	12-01-2002 06:18									#24
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Well Laz, this is basically the same argument as that other thread.

They aern't POWs, no matter what the Red Cross or AI proclaim, they are criminals.
Merc status is irrelevent.

They only need be kept fed and sheltered till trial, and I wouldn't shed a tear for a one of them, because I've been in their front line, and seen what they do to innocents, so don't bother trying that argument with me, it will fall on deaf ears.

They are but the first wave, and I'm for treating them as harsh as possible, I remember 9/11.

They sowed this, let them reap it.

	12-01-2002 06:31									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 They sowed this, let them reap it.

Their boss did.

	12-01-2002 07:14									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Regardless of their military status, they are human beings. This is not about wether they are mercenaries, soldiers, or potatoe farmers - it's about inhumane conditions.

Have you any suggestions on how differently they should be treated? Exactly how do we transport them? We could make them march to a port and take them by sea. The Japanese did that on a regular basis. What accomadations should we give them on board? How do we secure them in the ship, or do we just let them roam free? Tell us exactly how you would do it.

	12-01-2002 07:28									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Their boss did.

Do you know the Nuremberg argument?
"I was only following orders from above"
Didn't cut it then, doesn't now.

	12-01-2002 07:28									#28
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This seems to be a human rights issue here

Can I just ask which human rights activists asked the opinions of the 730 people aboard the the four hijacked flights, or the 3000 or so people who happened to be starting another days work in the WTC?

Oh silly me - they are all dead!

I'm not saying these people should die - but if they are treated as per the geneva convention, which they will be given the high profile status this Cuban prison has got, then why should we be getting involved? In my opinion, justice is close to being done.

	12-01-2002 07:30									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Their boss did.

sure, now go on and explain to us how they don't really carry responsability for it and how they knew nothing about it

	12-01-2002 07:37									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Have you any suggestions on how differently they should be treated? Exactly how do we transport them? We could make them march to a port and take them by sea. The Japanese did that on a regular basis. What accomadations should we give them on board? How do we secure them in the ship, or do we just let them roam free? Tell us exactly how you would do it.

In a humane fashion. I don't know how the soldiers are being treated, it's very possible that they are being treated humanely, it's also possible that they aren't - I don't know. I was just saying that this thread is about inhumane conditions and that concern applies to everyone.

quote: They sowed this, let them reap it.

I believe you just quoted Saddam Hussien's reaction to 9/11.