14-01-2002 07:04									#1
	A Maritime Manifesto Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In Civ 3, as well as in its predecessors, naval units are expensive, slow and weak. They are not used unless necessary, which harms historical realism, strategic depth and fun.

Historical realism
From the bronze age until the advent of railroads, sea travel was with little competition the fastest, safest, and most convenient means of transportation. The seas tied peoples together rather by dividing them, like mountains, forests and deserts did. One of the most important factors behind European technical superiority was that Europe is surrounded by calm waters - the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, the English Channel, the North Sea and the Baltic. No other continent has got this advantage. Someone said "Who controls the seas controls trade, and who controls trade controls the world."

Strategic depth
Civs on islands are predestinated losers. They will have a hard time expanding and finding resources.

Civ warfare is land warfare. Naval battles and blockades occur too rarely. In many games you don't really need to build a great navy.

Fun
The Civ world consists of continents with some kind of deep blue goop between them. This blue goop is mostly a problem; it yields little production unless you build expensive improvements, barbarians come from there, you cannot walk on it, and the vessels used to cross it are poor. To be drastic, water is a bit like the fungus in SMAC. If you start on an island, the beginning of the game will be tedious since you cannot explore or interact with other civs.



SOLUTIONS
The trade system is a good step forward from Civ 1 & 2, but not really enough. Much can be done through ordinary modding. Here are some points:

More and better naval units
Here is a suggestion of a unit setup.

I have added Timber as a strategic resource needed for most pre-steam ships. It would be very common in Forests and Jungles. (All trees consist of wood, but far from all are suited for shipbuilding.)

Transport units
* Raft: coast, carries one foot unit, moves 3
* Roundship: coast, carries 2 units, moves 4
* Longboat: sea, carries 1, moves 5
* Caravel: ocean, carries 2, moves 5, requires Timber
* Clipper: ocean, carries 3, moves 6, requires Timber
* Steamer: carries 4, moves 7, requires Iron and Coal
* Transport: carries 5, moves 8, requires Iron and Oil
* Superconductor Ship: carries 5, moves 10, requires Aluminium

Naval power units
* Galley: 1/1/4, coast, Timber
* Dromone: 2/2/4, coast, Timber & Saltpeter (Byzantine-style Galley with Greek fire)
* Ship of the Line: 3/4/5 (3/1/2), ocean, Timber Iron & Saltpeter
* Ironclad: 5/6/4 (4/1/2), zoc, sea, Iron Coal & Saltpeter
* Torpedo Boat: 8/4/6, sea, Iron & Coal
* Dreadnought: 10/12/6 (6/2/1), zoc, ocean, Iron & Coal
* Submarine: 8/4/5, Iron & Oil
* Battleship:14/16/7 (9/2/1), zoc, radar, Iron & Oil
* Destroyer: 7/8/8 (5/2/1), zoc, radar, Iron & Oil
* AEGIS cruiser: 9/10/8 (6/3/2), zoc, radar, Aluminium & Oil

The Carrier and the Submarine remain as before. One could introduce a Super Carrier, too.

I do not know what to do with the Privateer. It is sure fun, but historically the privateers never confrontated warships - just merchant ships. Maybe they could be made really cheap and used for blockades.

Other ideas conerning naval units
If naval power units can carry ground units (which some of them should - a battleship is big enough to hold many soldiers) will the AI use it to transport them?

Sonar buoy - a naval unit with stats 0/1/1, radar, sub, sees subs. Deploy these to watch your enemy.

Demolition ships, like in Age of Kings (missile type?)

Ships can be given the Intercept ability to shoot down passing aircraft, but does it work properly? And can fighters on a Carrier intercept?

Splitting the Harbor improvements into several ones
* Dock (20 shields, expansionist) - gives food bonus
* Goods Port (40 shields, commercial, expansionist) - allows sea trade and provides some culture
* Naval Regiment (40 shields, military) - produces veteran ships


Giving the Marine flag to several units
Assaults from the sea have existed for a long time, so having only one kind of Marine unit is less than optimal. Mostly, convetional infantry have been used in landing operations, often with great casualties. (Think of D-day!) It would be better to remove the Marine and give its ability to several foot units at different technology levels.

One could try Musketmen, Riflemen and Infantry. One possible problem is that these units are defensive, and the AI might not use them for sea assaults.


Removing the All as Road ability from the Explorer
This would make rough terrrain an obstacle throughout the game, and promote expansion over the seas. The Explorer can become useful if it has the Submarine flag, which will make it invisible. Then you can use it to spy on your enemy within his borders, unless he happens to move a combat unit into its square.

Increasing the Commerce output of coast/sea/ocean

To be continued...

What do you think?

	14-01-2002 12:51									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Hi Optimizer,

You make a number of VERY valid points. If you have a look at the thread "All encompassing Civ3 mod suggestions" or the "Mod with no name" thread you will see an edited copy of the Civ3stats files by Nero Would. I have addressed a number of the concerns that you have raised (Though not all).
Most notably, I have suggested that all ancient/medieval ships should have double movement, and industrial/modern vessels should have TRIPLE movement!!

In addition I have come up with stats for about 5 new naval units: The fire galley, corvette, ship of the line, the cruiser and the escort.

I have also thought of a way of having naval mines. A unit that is immobile, naval, is invisible like a sub, has a high attack and defense strength and has a "Paradrop" range of 2 hexes. This would be a great way of protecting your cities from bombardment by enemy by forcing enemy ships to take out the mines in order to get close enough!! Ideally, if you could somehow transport them, then you'd also have an ideal way of enforcing a blockade! Just put them in someones harbour and suddenly they can't trade!!

Anyway, please check out my ideas and let me know if you have any suggestions for improving them!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	15-01-2002 05:38									#3
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I subscribe this Manifesto. I was willing to help out the Expansion pack Civs, and I was working on the Portuguese Unique Unit. We were going to do a Nao, which required Navigation.

But then we realized that Navigation is basically a useless tech in Civ 3, because you can get a Galleon without researching Navigation! (go figure how !) And that you don't need Navigation to change the social age! And that there couldn't be much improvement between the Caravel and the Galleon also gave a big demoralization on the team debating about the Portuguese UU...

The maritime factor in Civ 3 wasn't properly tested. As many other things, as you unfortunatly have noticed...

	17-01-2002 02:30									#4
	Favour the Defender Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Naval mines would be great if they can be made to work.

One problem with making ships very fast and important is that balance might be endangered. A solution is to favour defense. During the ages of sails, the defending ships had got the advantage of choosing their heading - the guns could just fire straight starboard or port. Mines would also benefit defenders.

I tried to give coasts a movement rate of 2 to simulate the difficulty to navigate shallow water, but it does not seem to work.

Functional Tech Tree
The tech tree must make sense regarding ships. I don't really know how it should look, though.

	19-01-2002 06:10									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I tested your idea about with naval power and all (I'm just dying to get into a naval with japan ). I increased all naval movements by 3x and this is what I've found on a standard island map with 80% water.

01: The AI spreads like rabbits. In fact, by 250 AD there was no land left, and most of the AIs were spread accross the world like poka-dots.

02: By the industrial age, I found that it took about 5 minutes for all the AI civs to finish, why? Because there were hundreds of iron clads running around in circles around my borders!

IMHO, I think somthing like increasing naval ship movment should NOT be pursued due to the fact that the AI dosn't know any better. I don't think it knows how to just keep a ship fortified in the middle of the ocean like I do (in a logical location, like in "international waters" near an potential future enemy civ), instead only programed to just move it.

	19-01-2002 20:33									#6
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The competition about land is more of a challenge than a problem. World conquest should be difficult.

I agree that tripling the movement rates is exaggerated, mostly because it unfavours the AI and takes time.

	21-01-2002 16:33									#7
	Questions Remove this text

There are still things to find out, like:

How does the "secret" Marine attack bonus work (if it exists)?
Can ships with zero defense be captured? What happens to the units they carry?
Can ships be set to intercept? Would be really cool to have an AEGIS cruiser guarding the skies.

	27-01-2002 00:00									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The rapid expansion could be impeded by increasing the settler cost.

The time needed for road building could be increased. If you play on a continent, the natural way of creating a trade network would be building harbours (or goods ports in my example). As long as you just have coastal trade, this network could easily be blocked. (I hope you don't have to block trade routes at the ports.)

	31-01-2002 02:40									#9
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I don't care so much about Naval Warfare, that's not my area. But I do care about Naval Trade. I think Merchant Ships or something should be required for trade, making naval blockades actually usefull. A merchant ship and a harbor would be needed to have overseas trade. One ship would then bring enough resources for X amount of turns, making it necessary to have multiple ships. Also privateers could possibly to raid the ship to gain a cash bonus, or even gain the ability to steal the ship (Both of these happened many times in RL, the money part was how Brittain got the funds to fight Spain). And the importance of trade ships would obviusly increase the need for a strong navy.

	02-02-2002 06:18									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Very good points. I tried to create a scenario in which I would start out on a small but wealthy island in the middle of an ocean, with the two major land masses to each side. I would act as a Venice/Byzantium/London, the center of trade, and rule the seas, and set up colonies, etc. But I've started the game and I am not doing very well at all. My island only fits three cities, and they are all at maximum capacity already.

The setup for naval units are one reason for this, but corruption is another. Imagine trying to play as the British Empire in Civ III... India, on the other side of the world, would not be the jewel in the crown. It would be a worthless pit of corruption! Currently, Civ III is balanced to favor continental empires over colonial empires... that might have been true in the bronze ages, but in Civ III this balance doesn't even change during the 19th century.

Cheap colonial capitals should be made available.

	06-02-2002 01:21									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Obviously, distance is a much larger cause of corruption than number of cities. That is too bad for empires with many cities overseas. One could introduce a new government callede Imperialism or something with the corruption rate of democracy or Communism. I am planning a more complete setup of governments.

	06-02-2002 21:14									#12
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Will be nice if one or two of the ideas remain. Keeo on Boys.

	14-02-2002 03:21									#13
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One or two ideas remain? I am making a mod with all the ideas implemented!

	15-02-2002 06:37									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Obviously, distance is a much larger cause of corruption than number of cities. That is too bad for empires with many cities overseas. One could introduce a new government callede Imperialism or something with the corruption rate of democracy or Communism. I am planning a more complete setup of governments.
Umm, I wonder if there is some way to make corruption in far-flung cities decreasable with millitary units? Also, might it be that 19th century England was a republic, but that 19th century English _india_ was a despotism? How would this effect the game? Could somthing like that be implemented?

Obviously some of this stuff could not be done in the editor, but...

	15-02-2002 21:46									#15
	I totaly agree! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The maritime side of the game is even more under-developed in Civ3 than it was in Civ2.
In Civ2, I once made a modpack setting the game in antiquity where the sea was much more important (more powerful and faster boats, more productive seas), and the result was great (if anyone is interested, a mac version can be found on http://homepage.mac.com/civ2 and I can make a PC version on demand, email me at kinniken@mac.com).
Optiomizer, when your mode is done I want a copy! Normaly it should work on a mac as well. BTW, how are you planning to do the graphics? Wouldnt that be hard, especialy considering that every graphics must be done in 17 colors? (or is that automatic?)

For that provincial captial thing, would it be possible to switch the forbidden palace to building status, allowing people to make as many as needed? An other solution would be to beef up the courthouse, if that's possible (wasnt in Civ2...)

	19-02-2002 08:59									#16
	Re: Corruption in Far-Flung Empires Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi Marcus,

If you were to look at my list of suggested building mods, you'll see I've included such things as garrisons, governers palaces, Prisons and Parliament etc. Though some of my minor wonders which reduce corruption in all cities won't currently work owing to the limitations of the current editor, I hope that, with a future editor patch, all my corruption reducing minor wonders will be able to be untilized to the full (for the moment, most will act better as secondary "Forbidden Palaces).
Anyway, I'll include my edited CivStats file here in the hope that it will help you to produce a "Sea-faring Mod"

Attachment: civ3final.zip
This has been downloaded 13 time(s).

	22-02-2002 23:28									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think that to improve naval warfare, naval technologies need to come about. I mean, mass production yields several ships that it shouldn't. Let's do a fun break down

Ancient:
The sail is necessary to build an Outrigger. a small vessel than can carry 1 unit 1 distance across coast squares only.

The Oar is necessary to build Galleys and Quinqueremes, which can move three coast squares and are capable of attack and defense. Quinqueremes were massive Gallies capable of carry 2 units through coast squares.

Medieval:
Then you have shipwrights which allow you to build Dromons and cogs. Cogs are transport ships that can enter sea squares and carry 3 units. Dromons are primitive attack ships that can enter sea squares. Galleys upgrade to Dromons, quinqueremes upgrade to cogs.

With the invention of the compass you get Caravels and Galleas. Caravels can enter ocean squares and carry 4 units, Galleas are early oar and sail powered attack ships lined with rows of cannons that can enter ocean squares. Dromons upgrade to Galleas, Cogs upgrade to Caravels.

The invention of dry dock allows you to build Frigates, Galleons, and Corsairs. Frigates are attack ships capable of land-sea bombardment, and pack a heavy punch against other wooden vessels. Galleons are large, armed transports that carry 6 units. Corsairs are small, fast moving, light frigates that get attack bonuses against transport ships and can retreat when losing a battle (as corsairs often engaged in hit and run tactics). Like privateers of Civ III, Corsairs nationalities are hidden. Caravels upgrade to Galleons, Galleas upgrade to Frigates

Industiral

Steam Engine
The steam engine allows you to build steamers. steamers are the side paddle wheeled wooden ships of the early 19th century. they move two spaces more than frigates do but have the same attack, but lower defense. Old steamers were primarily made out of wood so if anything damaged the boiler or caused the hot coal to get on anything, the whole ship would turn into a floating fireball. this happened a lot until the metal hulls came into being. Frigates upgrade to Steamers

Steel (which gets acquired before it does in CivIII) allows you to build Clipper ships which are large, fast moving, armored transports which can carry 8 units. If anyone is familiar with Clipper ships, they were the massive, steel hulled vessels of the 1840s-1870s and used right up until just after WWI before steamers and combustion engined ships really took off. They had up to an acre of sail and could move at speeds up to 30 knots. very fast indeed. Cutty Sark is the most famous, sailing around the world in record time. Galleons upgrade to Clippers

Screw Propellor
This little invention REVOLUTIONIZES naval technology. no longer are winds needed to move a ship. Ships can be made bigger, stronger, and more powerful than ever. With the screw propellor comes an entirely new unit, the Ironclad which replaces the steamer in production, but the steamer cannot upgrade to the Ironclad. The Ironclad can cover more distances, and has stong attack and defense. Corsairs no longer can be built.

Explosives
With explosives, which will have there usefulness on land as well, on of which can be blast mining on mountain squares and hills. Blast mine a hill or mountain with a worker and there's a 75% chance of a resource which appears in that terrain can be found with the expense of the area surrouding it will have one pollution square. But for its naval uses, you get explosive ammunition which increases the success of naval bombardment by 50%. Explosives also eliminate the need for saltpeter to be acquired for gunpowder units like cavalry and musketmen to be built.

Internal Combustion
With the internal combustion engine, Destroyers and Transports are capable of being built. Destroyers are light warships that do not have bombard capabilities but can retreat from a losing battle. Transports are large transport ships which can carry 12 units. Clippers upgrade to transports, Ironclads cannot upgrade to Destroyers.

Mass Production
This allows Cruisers and Battleships to be built. Cruisers are medium warships with bombard capabilities, and fast movement. Battleships are heavy warships with slower movement, but incredible firepower. They are a floating fortress which can take on several ships and attack more than once, but only bombard once per turn (so if you're shelling a city and the enemy's fleet has already come out to play you can take them on during the same time). Ironclads are phased out of production and production upgrades for them go to Cruisers and now the stage is set for modern naval warfare. Destroyers are light ships that can attack other ships quickly and retreat, cruisers are medium ships good for coast bombardment, and battleships are floating fortresses good for high seas warfare and inland bombardment.

Submursibles
This tech allows you to build submarines. Submarines are slow moving ships that can't be seen until attack and disappear again if the attack is successful or by destroyers and other subs. Submarines get an attack bonus on all ships except for destroyers and other submarines. Submarines cannot be damaged by bombardment (if seen) until the depth charge is researched.

Radio
The radio allows you to build the aircraft carrier. Aircraft carriers carry up to 5 aircraft of any kind and move as far as battleships every turn. they have no attack value and minimal defense so they need to be protected by an escort if you want them to survive. Subs also get an attack bonus against Carriers.

Depth Charge
This tech allows submarines to be bombarded by ships and airplanes so long as they've been spotted.

Amphibious warfare
This allows marines, flying boats, and landing craft to be built. Landing craft can go 1 square into a flat land (desert, plains, grassland) to unload regular troops and marines MUST be loaded onto a landing craft in order to attack from the sea. the benefit of the landing craft is that it can go one square into a flat land (desert, plains, grassland) so that a transport can deliver armor and artillery behind it. so the marines can attack, but other units can continue to be unloaded. This idea came for the tactics used during D-Day, in which infantry landed on the beach and took the fortifications while behind tanks, trucks, and reinforcements would be unloaded. Landing craft carry 5 units each, have no attack value, and little defensive value. must be escorted by a warship to keep safe. Flying boats on the other hand operate as an air/sea unit. they can rebase on any water tile within their effective range (which is fairly good sized) and can run recon and bombard enemy warships, transports, and subs. They can see submarines in their effective area and get an attack bonus against them (since no other ships do). Flying boats have a defensive bonus against bombardment, but are very suseptible to naval attack and can be destroyed easily this way. They can also be shot down by enemy fighters and interceptors. The idea for the flying boat came out of their exstensive use during WWII to submarine hunt and run recon over the open ocean. being able to land literally anywhere in the water. They flew at night with a large spotlight hanging underwing and blew the cover of diesel subs which took advantage of the dark to surface. Their intended use in the game is as a recon and sub hunter.

Sonar
This technology allows sonar bouys to be built in coastal towns as an improvement. if a submarine swims into the city radius it will appear on the map blowing their cover and allowing planes and ships to attack them or bombard them.

Nuclear power
This allows nuclear subs to be built. Nuclear subs have stronger attack and defense, and move much quicker. They can carry tactical missles. Nuclear power also gives destroyers, cruisers, carriers, and battleships +2 square movement bonus. Regular subs can upgrade to nuclear subs, but the cost is very high, however, regular subs still remain in the production list.

Computers
Computers while having many uses at land, allow for the production of a Modern Frigates. These fast moving, medium warships have extended bombardment range and an increased attack and defense they can see regular subs, but not nuclear subs. Bombardment gets a 25% accuracy increase with computers. Cruisers upgrade to Modern Frigates. *if anyone can think of a better name than Modern Frigates, I'm all ears since I can't remember the classes of new Frigates.

Smart Weapons
Smart Weapons yields a totally new naval unit, the AEGIS cruiser. this ship is a strong attacker and defender and represents the most up-to-date vessel in the world. AEGIS cruisers can go head to head with Battleships unlike any other naval vessel before it thanks to powerful armament, precision weapons, and speed. They can see both regular subs and nuclear subs and have an attack bonus against both. They also have an extended bombard range and powerful attack with 100% accuracy. They are a serious ship and will REVOLUTIONIZE future naval developments. I'm seeing the animation for bombardment as being a couple of rockets being fired out of the front rocket bays.

well I hope you enjoyed my little list. I put a bit of time into coming up with it.

	22-02-2002 23:43									#18
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oh, i also figured that it'd be cool to give each civ it's own special naval unit as well. The Greeks get Triremes (replaces galley), the Romans get Fire Galleys (replaces galley), the Egyptians get Reed Boats (replaces outrigger), the Chinese get Junks (replaces caravel), the Japanese get Assault Landers (replaces landing craft and can carry armor), Americans get Gunboats (replaces ironclad), the British get East Indiamen (replaces Galleon), the Russians get K-19 Subs (which replace nuclear subs), the Germans get U-Boats (which replace regular subs), the French get Ocean Liners (which replace transports), the Iroquois get Dugouts (which replace the outrigger). Any other suggestions for the remaining Civs and a better one for France, please feel free to add!

	28-02-2002 00:18									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

One unique ground unit and one ship for each civ? That would be interesting. (If you only could come up with one for the Aztecs.)

Can you connect to resources in the sea if you have a harbor?

	28-02-2002 03:13									#20
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hmmm, aztecs...I was thinking that rivers should be reintegrated into the game as a useful means of transport like in Civ II, an Aztec "lake boat" could be made then and it gets a river bonus, just like the Iroquois dugouts. more resources should appear in ocean squares like oil, uranium, and aluminum, but are only accessible to a city if it has an offshore platform. Harbors are needed to collect whales and a port facility should be required to build veteran sea units.

	28-02-2002 07:52									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I have already explored with some of the ideas and I made a great alternitve. I started by taking advice and not trying it with triple movement. Insted I made it into 1 1/2 and 2 times the movement along with a unit called a Light Mountain. They have an attack of 14 a defense of 13 and movment of 3. They also have amphibious and paradrop abilities and the marine and paratrooper upgrade to them. I also gave the Americans the Super carrier. Some day I might post these but I put them in my huge mod file and I am still tuching up on armies in see and air and a way to reduce corruption and waste overseas because I always seem to be isolated and when I try to expand I have one commerce and one production becaouse of all the waist and corruption.

	28-02-2002 12:11									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

colonial doctrine would be a tech to research that inmproves commerce and reduces corruption overseas. You should also be able to take a leader and built a fleet which is basically an army full of sea units and built a squadron which is an army full of air units.

	02-03-2002 04:54									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by SieGermans You should also be able to take a leader and built a fleet which is basically an army full of sea units and built a squadron which is an army full of air units.

I alredy tried this and I have been so buisy moding I havn't had time to try them and after thinking about an air army it would be more usefull in Civ2 since in 3 you can't move air units independently. also does anyone know of a way to make armies more comin

	02-03-2002 16:07									#24
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they should improve air warfare in the game. a sqaudron of bombers would operate much like this. the combined offense and defense of each bomber in the sqaudron would be accounted. each individual bomber attacks one after the other for each mission, regardless if the first unit fails to achieve victory unlike in an army. it's complex and I am so tired I will add more later.

	03-03-2002 02:22									#25
	PIRACY & "MERCHANT" SHIPS Remove this text

I have a potential solution.
It requires some imagination but it would work effectively.

Currently, only a clear path and two harbours are needed for trade. I like ideas 2 & 3 best but i think 1 would also work.

IDEA 1.
Give privateers 0 attack and moderate defense. Make 'em cheap. Use them en masse to blockade harbours. If you have lots of them, you can block the harbour without being right next to that square. thus, military ships will have to be on patrol trying to break these rings (imagine it as "hunting down" pirates who are preying on your shipping - you'll have to maintain a regular coast guard that actually leaves the coast).

IDEA 2.
Make privateers have 0 attack and weak defense. (simulates inability to confront real military ships).
Give them high bombard. (simulates ability to raid undefended coasts, they might even destroy a harbour!).
Give them high movement.
This will make your privateers a hit & run unit.
Military ships will have to "chase" them to protect your shipping routes.


IDEA 3.
Make a merchant CONVOY unit. (or Merchant FLEET unit). Make it expensive. Give it the ability to HURRY improvements.
Now you can build up that far-off colonial continent quickly, if your CONVOYs make it there.
Give it zero attack, wussy defense.
Now, your privateers have a target to hit. You;d have to give the privateers a decent attack value and high movement.


Anyone try these yet?

	05-03-2002 04:06									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

if there was an added catigory of armor than you could give the priviters a moderate atack and defense but they would bave low armor.

	05-03-2002 18:15									#27
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There's some very interesting suggestions here for improving the naval side of CIV3. An important point that has not been addressed is how to improve the strategic importance of naval forces. I've seen many posts noting that in CIV3, Britain would not have been the world power that it was. Britains power came from money, derived from trade, that was protected by its navies.

On a strategic level, navies promote effective trade. More trade means more money, and money is power! At present, the navies in CIV3 function to either defend your patch of soil from invasion or prepare the way for your own invasion of someone elses patch. Navies have no (or little) effect on trade! In CIV2, trade was less important than in CIV3 but naval power was (in a sense) more important in that you could at least hunt down vessels filled with caravans. In CIV3 navies can (theorectically) blockade enemy ports, but so far I haven't found this to be a usable strategy.

What is needed is a way to translate naval forces into substantial modifications of trade and commerce in general (without bringing back caravans). Perhaps a variable positive multiplier to commerce with each friendly naval vessel minus the effect of unfriendly naval vessels.

	08-03-2002 22:57									#28
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

SpencerH, that's a great idea and one that Sid Meier's addressed in another one of his games, Colonization.

I made a suggestion along those lines at the link below.



Link
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=44262

	23-07-2002 03:33									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Can you make a unit that transforms land squares into sea?

	13-11-2002 13:41									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Can you give a naval unit the ability to build cities? For example in shore squares?

Cities in seas were the best part of Call to Power.