15-01-2002 15:03									#31
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quote: I am native american as well, but I suppose that doesn't matter to you because my skin is white.

Hey, me too. I was born here in America so I'm a native American with white skin...oops...

	15-01-2002 15:15									#32
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yeah another PC term

just call me an Indian

	15-01-2002 17:20									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Is it some kind of coincidence that the Apolytoners who are upset over this are white? So the statue is based on a photograph doesn't mean the statue is the photograph. Not that it is physically possible.

When other races have problems with society they riot (I.E. Rodney King, etc). I say good job that white people arent rioting over this and settling it in a civilized manner.

	15-01-2002 17:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by CB2034 When other races have problems with society they riot (I.E. Rodney King, etc). I say good job that white people arent rioting over this and settling it in a civilized manner.

Yeah, it is a well known fact that during the Seattle IMF riots, all the people smashing windows and fighting with the cops were black or asian. Yessiree, no white people were rioting there. Just a bunch of coloured folk who don't know how to behave white.

	15-01-2002 18:27									#35
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quote: Originally posted by CB2034 When other races have problems with society they riot (I.E. Rodney King, etc). I say good job that white people arent rioting over this and settling it in a civilized manner.

Give me an I!
Give me a G!
Give me an N!
Give me an O!
Give me an R!
Give me an E!

What does that spell?

You got it. Welcome to my ignore list.

	15-01-2002 18:43									#36
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I made it to my first ignore list.... HOORAY!!!
Ive been trying for so long and now Ive been ignored.
I cant tell you how much this means to me, First I would like to thank my Mentor Neal Boortz( www.Boortz.com ) and my family and there are so many more people I would like to thank as well. Oh yes, Thank you Krazy for taking the time to add me to your list as well.

	15-01-2002 20:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The Iwo Jima memorial in Washington, D.C. features only white men.

With the exception of American Indians (and possibly Latinos), there were no non-white American combatants in the Pacific theater. Asians and Black folks fought in Europe.

It's interesting to see the hate boiling up herre over the inclusion of different groups in a statue that is based on a photograph. Of course, there is no racial animus here. You just want historical accuracy.

Great, so I'll expect to see you all protesting nearly every Hollywood movie based on books and made-for-tv movies based on actual events. I can expect to see you griping about how the new TV show, The Company completely rewrites the reality of the CIA. I'll expect to see you fuming about how Mississippi Burning shows the FBI as opposing the Klan, as opposed to helping them. I'll expect to see you out protesting Columbus Day, since it is outrageous that we celebrate a mass murderer and slaver.

What's that? You can't be bothered to to correct the historical record if it isn't about white people?

BTW, CB2034, I woiuld expect to be banned if I were you. What you wrote was not only racist, it was a lie. C'ya.

	15-01-2002 20:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's interesting to see the hate boiling up herre over the inclusion of different groups in a statue that is based on a photograph. Of course, there is no racial animus here. You just want historical accuracy.

If the makers of the statue want to be politically correct, they shouldn't base their statue on a real historical photograph. Changing the photo, which is a small part of history, is unethical and just plain wrong.

Is this truely so hard to understand? Or is it just so much more entertaining to assume racial hatred?

	15-01-2002 20:46									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara With the exception of American Indians (and possibly Latinos), there were no non-white American combatants in the Pacific theater. Asians and Black folks fought in Europe. It's interesting to see the hate boiling up herre over the inclusion of different groups in a statue that is based on a photograph. Of course, there is no racial animus here. You just want historical accuracy. Great, so I'll expect to see you all protesting nearly every Hollywood movie based on books and made-for-tv movies based on actual events. I can expect to see you griping about how the new TV show, The Company completely rewrites the reality of the CIA. I'll expect to see you fuming about how Mississippi Burning shows the FBI as opposing the Klan, as opposed to helping them. I'll expect to see you out protesting Columbus Day, since it is outrageous that we celebrate a mass murderer and slaver. What's that? You can't be bothered to to correct the historical record if it isn't about white people? BTW, CB2034, I woiuld expect to be banned if I were you. What you wrote was not only racist, it was a lie. C'ya.

Che

If it was two blacks and a hispanic raising the flag and a picture was taken, and someone decided that this is a symbol of the effort and sacrifice that was made on that day wouldn't it be fair that the sculpture is made of them?

If they don't find that three people being white is representative of everyone why did they choose a real event to make a symbol out of it? Couldn't they come up with an image of firefighters of all the races coming together and fighting the flames on 9-11.

Why Balck, Hispanic and White, why not Asian and Arab? wouldn'y you be offended if they are trying to be PC and they forgot you and you were there fighting together? I can bet there must be at least a few Asians if not Arabs too in the FF. (that would make a good message to the world, - we don't hate you you are us no matter who you are - even if the same race as OBL) Noone could think of that rather they change the color of people in a real event. Spineless.

This is pure political PR and just shows that people are not ready to live togeyher, in the same way as if there were three blacks raising the flag and they didn't want to take the picture because they were black. Racism makes you distort the reality, and reality is that we are all the same. PC does this as well and just makes you remember how ironic everything is.

PC: I guess Arabs are not popular at the moment, and asians don't complain about racism anyway.

	15-01-2002 20:49									#40
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But they aren't changing the photo, they are changing a statue that is based on the photo. Statue /= photo. Photo=photo. Statue=statue.

Like I said, either you are consistant in your quest for historical accuracy or not. If not, and you have a pattern of only saying something about it when you feel it's unfair to white folks, then perhaps there is another motivation than historical accuracy.

All this time crowing about the need for unity, and someone does something to be inclusive, and all the sudden the same people crying unity are saying, "No, we meant unity behind us!" Sorry that the fire department's sense of unity offends some people's feelings of white supremacy.

	15-01-2002 20:51									#41
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave PC: I guess Arabs are not popular at the moment, and asians don't complain about racism anyway.

This statement reveals the depth of your ignorance.

	15-01-2002 20:51									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If the makers of the statue want to be politically correct, they shouldn't base their statue on a real historical photograph. Changing the photo, which is a small part of history, is unethical and just plain wrong

What if they added a multitude of watchers (representing the people of the US) holding hands in the background? Would that be wrong too?

It's art, not a photograph. If the ethnicities were changed to represent the unity of all Americans in overcoming, then what's the big deal? It's not like they're airbrushing all photographs of the event to defraud people into thinking things were actually different than they were.

	15-01-2002 21:07									#43
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quote: Essentially posted by chegitz guevara & KrazyHorse It's art, not a photograph.

If the statue is meant to be art and not a memorial to what actually happened on that terrible day, why choose a real photograph and copy it right down to the looks on the men's faces and the folds of the flag as they were depicted in the photograph as opposed to coming up with an original image to honor all of the firemen?

	15-01-2002 21:11									#44
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Why not just make it a collection of spheres and cubes that feels like unity?

It's representational art; it takes something from real life and alters it to meet an ideal. Cavemen did it by making the horns on the antelopes bigger. Greeks did it by overmuscling their athletic statues. Welcome to the club.

	15-01-2002 21:12									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This statement reveals the depth of your ignorance.

??? just an ironic remark on reasons why these two significant races were not included in the memoriam (when the whole subject is togetherness in fight) and reminds you as well that you forget the ones that you don't like (or the ones who are quiet)

quote: But they aren't changing the photo, they are changing a statue that is based on the photo. Statue /= photo. Photo=photo. Statue=statue.

but by doing this they are telling you and everyone else : We will take this picture because everyone thinks it is patriotic (as it is) and we have no guts to do an alternative image to represent the unity of all those FF who suffered (and that the race doesn't matter - if that is the message they want to get across) beacuse this picture is so highly tought of in public. We will simply put them in color - that should do, which color since there are only three guys?
Well black and hispanic - they complain about such things the most so to keep them happy.

quote: Like I said, either you are consistant in your quest for historical accuracy or not. If not, and you have a pattern of only saying something about it when you feel it's unfair to white folks, then perhaps there is another motivation than historical accuracy.

historical accuracy is certainly not the prime reason for rememberance, but you should know what do you want the people to remember and than plan accordingly, to make a statement with the symbol, not to remind everyone (wherever you can) how that we do always have to remember that races do get along, indirectly.

quote: All this time crowing about the need for unity, and someone does something to be inclusive, and all the sudden the same people crying unity are saying, "No, we meant unity behind us!" Sorry that the fire department's sense of unity offends some people's feelings of white supremacy.

What if there three people were not white? Would it matter than? Perhaps they wanted to make a statement how it doesn't matter who you are they should have put a picture of two black FF fighting the flames. That would be fair and sincere since they are Americans as everyone else is. (and would give a message out) What they are doing here is just a show and that is spineless.

	15-01-2002 21:17									#46
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Is it just me or has Berzerker raised the most valid points this thread?

	15-01-2002 21:21									#47
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Just you. Standard Berzerker fare from what I've seen. Not stupid, just over-the-top individualistic.

	15-01-2002 21:25									#48
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why not just make it a collection of spheres and cubes that feels like unity?

As long as the person paying for it (apparently not the Fire Department in this case) wants a collection of spheres and cubes, why not?

	15-01-2002 21:26									#49
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quote: just over-the-top individualistic.

???

Don't these three men represent everyone even though they are white?

	15-01-2002 21:26									#50
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The guvmint didn't force him to make it different, so what's it to you? If members of the public want to exert influence by speech then what's the problem?

	15-01-2002 21:28									#51
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave quote: just over-the-top individualistic. ??? Don't these three men represent everyone even though they are white?

You missed what I was referring to. Berzerker doesn't care what the statue's about as long as he doesn't have to pay for it and freedom of speech isn't intruded upon, but that really isn't germane to the discussion at hand, since nobody forced anybody else to do anything here.

	15-01-2002 21:28									#52
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For whom is this statue a memorial? Only the three men raising the flag in the photo? Well, then by all means, they should have their faces on the statues, since it is a memorial for those three gentlemen.

Oh, wait, it's not, its for all the firemen and for all Americans. Oh well, sucks to be them. We don't need no unity, this is America. White supremacy for all!

	15-01-2002 21:29									#53
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The guvmint didn't force him to make it different, so what's it to you? If members of the public want to exert influence by speech then what's the problem?

The answer to both questions is that it was changed over his objections even though he paid for it.

	15-01-2002 21:31									#54
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If you are giving me a statue, I have the right to say I want it to look a particular way. If you don't like it, you don't have to give it to me. If you are dead set on giving me the statue, however, than do it the way I ask.

	15-01-2002 21:32									#55
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This whole thing is insane.

It's stupid that somone saw a photograph of the firefighters and thought, "wow that would make a great statue if two of those firefighters were not white...."

It's equally stupid that someone is complaining that the statue will have firefighters who are not white. Who cares? Yes, it's blatent pandering to be PC. But by complaining about it, these people are guilty of the same nitwittery that they revile.

It's stupid that anyone cares what color the firefighters are. The only person who might have a beef here is the photographer, who might want to take issue with the statue's accuarcy to the original photograph.

We're never going to get along until we can stop seeing each other as skin colors as opposed to just people.

	15-01-2002 21:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Oh, wait, it's not, its for all the firemen and for all Americans.

You still haven't answered the question I asked, che. You also seem to be resorting to increasing use of histrionics in order to avoid doing so. It's bad form and really doesn't help your case.

	15-01-2002 21:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Don't these three men represent everyone even though they are white?

Thank You!!!

	15-01-2002 21:36									#58
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What che said with regard to ownership of the statue.

If the guy paid for a statue which he wanted to depict the photograph as accurately as possible and the FD didn't want to erect it as is, then he didn't have to change it; he could have it made how he wants and erect it in his backyard.

Some of you seem to be convinced that somehow this guy's money was stolen to make a statue he didn't want; he didn't have to agree to the changes, but he decided to let them go through in order to get the statue raised in the FD's lobby.

	15-01-2002 21:40									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara With the exception of American Indians (and possibly Latinos), there were no non-white American combatants in the Pacific theater. Asians and Black folks fought in Europe.

Incorrect. Nisei Japanese-Americans fought in Europe.

quote: It's interesting to see the hate boiling up herre over the inclusion of different groups in a statue that is based on a photograph. Of course, there is no racial animus here. You just want historical accuracy.

So should the statues of the Roman emporers have been "representative" of the racial groups within the empire, rather than the emporers themselves?

The statue is "based on" the real live action of three individuals - if NY wants to do a nice PC generic statue, then do one of three generic people from Cantor-Fitzgerald or something. The statue proposal isn't just "based on" that photo, it's a total ripoff of it, within the limits of bronze sculpture, except for the racial alteration of their faces.

The similar Vietnam vets memorial was a stylized creation - it didn't take a photo of three individuals then change their facial features.

quote: BTW, CB2034, I woiuld expect to be banned if I were you. What you wrote was not only racist, it was a lie. C'ya.

Nope, no ban. If I banned everyone for ignorant or biased comments, or for convenient ideological misrepresentations, I'd be banning 90% of the forum. Racist comments, homophobic comments, anti-religion comments, etc., have to rise to a pretty extreme level, like advocating killing, deporting, whatever.

	15-01-2002 21:43									#60
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I don't think CB should be banned for it either; I just don't want to have to read what he has to say any more.