15-01-2002 21:49									#61
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You still haven't answered the question I asked, che. You also seem to be resorting to increasing use of histrionics in order to avoid doing so. It's bad form and really doesn't help your case.

I guess your problem here is I don't give a damn about the statue. Either way would suit me equally.

I'm just trying to point out the hypocracy in the anti-PC crowd's argument. If they were really concerned about historical accuracy, which they started this thread claiming, then then should be consistant. If they only dfo it when it involves giving white folks less than white they feel is their fair shair, then their problem is not historical accuracy but white supremacy.

I think I stand rather closer to Raufhaus8's comments (will wonders never cease).

quote: It's stupid that somone saw a photograph of the firefighters and thought, "wow that would make a great statue if two of those firefighters were not white...." It's equally stupid that someone is complaining that the statue will have firefighters who are not white.

	15-01-2002 21:55									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Incorrect. Nisei Japanese-Americans fought in Europe.

If you reread what I wrote, MtG, you will note that is what I wrote. (Our) Asians fought in Europe.

quote: So should the statues of the Roman emporers have been "representative" of the racial groups within the empire, rather than the emporers themselves?

I'm not about to argue with the Roman Emperors. They are too dead to care.

quote: The statue is "based on" the real live action of three

Key words, based on. If you want to get upset about it, get upset with everything that is historically inaccurate. Since the statue is not meant to be a memorial to those three men specifically, I can't see why anyone is upset about it.

quote: Nope, no ban. If I banned everyone for ignorant or biased comments, or for convenient ideological misrepresentations, I'd be banning 90% of the forum. Racist comments, homophobic comments, anti-religion comments, etc., have to rise to a pretty extreme level, like advocating killing, deporting, whatever.

Okay, fine, but you should give him a warning.

	15-01-2002 22:07									#63
	Remove this text

quote: I guess your problem here is I don't give a damn about the statue. Either way would suit me equally. I'm just trying to point out the hypocracy in the anti-PC crowd's argument. If they were really concerned about historical accuracy, which they started this thread claiming, then then should be consistant. If they only dfo it when it involves giving white folks less than white they feel is their fair shair, then their problem is not historical accuracy but white supremacy.

is this about white supremacy?


Not true, if 3 black men, or ethnically diverse men, had been photographed raising the flag, then they should have been depicted raising the flag. Their skin color is irrelevant...

or this?

What if there three people were not white? Would it matter than? Perhaps they wanted to make a statement how it doesn't matter who you are they should have put a picture of two black FF fighting the flames. That would be fair and sincere since they are Americans as everyone else is. (and would give a message out) What they are doing here is just a show and that is spineless.


This shows only that being PC does not solve the problems rather it often creates them (and is actually counter-productive). If you want to be sincere and honest and send a message out do it, don't pretend. Find a picture that suits the goal and make a statue about it. Or build it from your idea.

	15-01-2002 22:20									#64
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That, OFITG, is called CYA, covering your ass. The fact is, if it had been three Black firemen in the picture, and they decided to make it racially representive, I don't think any of the folks in this thread currently protesting the changing of the statue would be saying a damned thing. Since you don't protest the rewriting of history to portray whites in a better light, I have no alternative to believe this is true.

edit: when did ass start getting past the censor bot?

	15-01-2002 22:24									#65
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If they are going to used the historical image of the published photograph they should use the likeness of the men therein, unles they consent to alteration. They may even have a legal claim (not sure about New York but, the Califonina verison of law on use of celebrity images would likely give them such power) to prevent monkeying with their image.
Since portraying the contribution of many is an important concern here, they should obviously used an invented design, and abandon using the photograph of the indentified individuals as the model for the memorial.

	15-01-2002 22:24									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Every now and then, I am surprised at the length some people go to try and punish white people for the sins of their fathers, and it's a load of horse dung.
First, a little correction:

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara With the exception of American Indians (and possibly Latinos), there were no non-white American combatants in the Pacific theater. Asians and Black folks fought in Europe.

As MTG pointed out, this is incorrect, but he didn't go far enough.
Nisei also acted as interpreters in the Phillipinnes and on Okinawa.
Every US Navy warship had Blacks aboard as mess boys, full crew members part of the USN, and if the ship was in combat, THEY were in combat.
Both the army and Navy used blacks in construction battalions and as stevedores in combat zones, again, these are combatants.

quote: It's interesting to see the hate boiling up herre over the inclusion of different groups in a statue that is based on a photograph. Of course, there is no racial animus here. You just want historical accuracy.

Not I.
I find the attitude that I should be asshamed to be white ludicrous, and that I should bend over backwards for minorities because of the past insane.
This culture of "owing something" for past deeds is assinine.
If they wanted ethnic diversity for a statue, they should have just shown three people standing, not hi-jack a photo that has become world famous.

quote: Great, so I'll expect to see you all protesting nearly every Hollywood movie based on books and made-for-tv movies based on actual events. I can expect to see you griping about how the new TV show, The Company completely rewrites the reality of the CIA. I'll expect to see you fuming about how Mississippi Burning shows the FBI as opposing the Klan, as opposed to helping them. I'll expect to see you out protesting Columbus Day, since it is outrageous that we celebrate a mass murderer and slaver.

This is an apple and oranges argument Che, and you know it.
We both know that the true facts of the clan, and the US gov's failure to supress it, trying to use that with this doesn't fit.

As for Columbus, he was a man of his time, and the people killed were no better then the Spanish you attempt to villify, the Carib indians were CANNIBALS (yes, they ate human flesh), and many Meso-American cultures rountinly practiced human sacrifice, and many other vile things.
This doesn't excuse what happened, but it does explain why the Spanish hardly felt them equal to themselves, although that attitude is incorrect, up to about 30 years ago, it was HUMANITIES' attitude in general, and we still see it.
Japan has an insult to describe non-Japanese.Some of our Chinese posters always try to show China's superiority anyway they can.
Black african tribes when dealing with other tribes, just picture Rwanda or Somalia.
Any Islamic when you mention a Jew, the list is endless.
Racism isn't a white thing, it's a human thing, so climb off the high horse, it's all bull-sh1t and you know it.

quote: What's that? You can't be bothered to to correct the historical record if it isn't about white people?

At this point, many want to change things into boldface lies, not correct past wrongs.
One of my best friends, a black dude from bed Stuy (who also was my best man, and I his, BTW) once was fond of saying "Black people built the USA , slaves made everything".
He totally ignored the fact that slaves in the USA were confined to agriculture, and the only construction work they could get was laying rails, as constrution was protected by Masons and such, add to it that they made up less then 10% of the USA's population through it's history, and the proof of this ridicuolous statement is revealed.
This doesn't mean that blacks made no contribution, but trying to steal another man's feats is just wrong, and that is what this staute is trying to do.

quote: BTW, CB2034, I woiuld expect to be banned if I were you. What you wrote was not only racist, it was a lie. C'ya.

I have seen far worse, he will learn how to post over time.

Let me close by saying that one of the people I lost on 9/11 was a firefighter, a guy I went to school with, and a family man (4 kids), and he was white as a sheet.
His brother firefighters, and his widow both object to changing the people in the statue into blacks, and siome of them ARE black.

This WAS PC at it's worst, and the defenders of it do a dis-service to us all with their attitude of "You don't like it because YOU are racist!".
Bullsh1t.
I don't like it because it wasn't the truth.
You want diversity, build a statue of three guys standing around, if will just as good as a memorial, both don't try to steal another man's deeds, it just plain wrong.

	15-01-2002 22:31									#67
	I thought that Gian was BAM! not che. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The fact is, if it had been three Black firemen in the picture, and they decided to make it racially representive, I don't think any of the folks in this thread currently protesting the changing of the statue would be saying a damned thing.

On what do you base this BAM! comment, che and how do we know that you wouldn't be the one protesting this hypothetical change even if it is true?

	15-01-2002 22:32									#68
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That, OFITG, is called CYA, covering your ass. The fact is, if it had been three Black firemen in the picture, and they decided to make it racially representive, I don't think any of the folks in this thread currently protesting the changing of the statue would be saying a damned thing. Since you don't protest the rewriting of history to portray whites in a better light, I have no alternative to believe this is true. [q] edit: when did ass start getting past the censor bot?

no idea? shoud have been a**. it went trough somewhere else as well...

the truth is that if there were three black man they should have stayed black on the statue. They represent the struglle that all the FF went trough regardless of race, and acording to a live event (and a picture). This statue is about 9-11 and not about racial tensions in USA. And the inability to mix the two, and make it so blatantly PC, is... (spineless what else?)

If they were thinking about the racial issue in all this they should have taken a different route, not like this one, and make a statement of unity in a clear way.

	15-01-2002 22:33									#69
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you reread what I wrote, MtG, you will note that is what I wrote. (Our) Asians fought in Europe. Nisei weren't the only Asians in uniform. USFIP was a Filipino dominated organization, Korean-Americans, some Chinese, and later in the war, black Marines all served in the Pacific theater. [quote]Key words, based on. If you want to get upset about it, get upset with everything that is historically inaccurate. Since the statue is not meant to be a memorial to those three men specifically, I can't see why anyone is upset about it.

Well, there is (probably) a copyright and model release issue - I think the statue should be something different entirely.

quote: quote: Nope, no ban. If I banned everyone for ignorant or biased comments, or for convenient ideological misrepresentations, I'd be banning 90% of the forum. Racist comments, homophobic comments, anti-religion comments, etc., have to rise to a pretty extreme level, like advocating killing, deporting, whatever. Okay, fine, but you should give him a warning.

I'd be warning everyone else too. People can have offensive or controversial (or ignorant) opinions. It's only when it gets waaaay out of line that it's something I/we take action on. Otherwise, we end up in the business of being thought police.

	15-01-2002 22:36									#70
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That, OFITG, is called CYA, covering your ass. The fact is, if it had been three Black firemen in the picture, and they decided to make it racially representive, I don't think any of the folks in this thread currently protesting the changing of the statue would be saying a damned thing. Since you don't protest the rewriting of history to portray whites in a better light, I have no alternative to believe this is true. edit: when did ass start getting past the censor bot?

I sure as hell would, because it would be a ripoff of those three men's deeds. Oh, and BTW, there's plenty of history out there that doesn't place whites in a very flattering light. And most of the current revisionism in history is swinging the opposite way - of covering up or ignoring (I was tempted to say "whitewashing") the acts of other groups than white colonialists.

Black complicity in the slave trade, all-black slavery in the African continent, the kinds of lovely repressive regimes that dominated the entire world, genocidal wars, the almost universally deplorable treatment of women, human sacrifice, etc.

Revisionism sucks, whichever direction it goes in. It's much simpler if we acknowledge that human beings with power are generally evil, nasty shits with twisted ideas. Reality always offends somebody.

	15-01-2002 22:52									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Historical correctness all over political correctness.

	15-01-2002 22:52									#72
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Nisei also acted as interpreters in the Phillipinnes and on Okinawa. Every US Navy warship had Blacks aboard as mess boys, full crew members part of the USN, and if the ship was in combat, THEY were in combat. Both the army and Navy used blacks in construction battalions and as stevedores in combat zones, again, these are combatants.

Okay, fine, I'm wrong here. (It happens.)

quote: This is an apple and oranges argument Che, and you know it. We both know that the true facts of the clan, and the US gov's failure to supress it, trying to use that with this doesn't fit.

No, it isn't. If people here are claiming they are upset because it doesn't represent historical accuracy (their words, not mine) but I only ever see them do this when it is white folks who are being misrepresented, and not anyone else, then their motives are suspect. And that's all I'm pointing out, that they are inconsistant on historical accuracy ... except when it comes to white people. There's a word for that.

quote: At this point, many want to change things into boldface lies, not correct past wrongs.

Yes, but we don't have any Afro-centrics on this board, so I can't argue with them. I have a friend who believes as the stars are in heaven that the Egyptians were Black, and that Black Africans are decended from Egyptians. I laugh at her when she says this. But why bring it up here. No one's gonna argue for it, and I don't feel like posting something where everyone sits around writing "Yeah dude, that's messed up."

quote: You want diversity, build a statue of three guys standing around, if will just as good as a memorial, both don't try to steal another man's deeds, it just plain wrong.

Fine by me, like I said, don't really care about the statue one way or another. It's just that I suspect certain people's motives, and I'm pointing out their hypocricy.

	15-01-2002 23:02									#73
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Fine by me, like I said, don't really care about the statue one way or another. It's just that I suspect certain people's motives, and I'm pointing out their hypocricy.

did we prove yourself wrong?
good for discussion anyway

	15-01-2002 23:08									#74
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave quote: Fine by me, like I said, don't really care about the statue one way or another. It's just that I suspect certain people's motives, and I'm pointing out their hypocricy. did we prove yourself wrong? good for discussion anyway

Nope, didn't prove me wrong, because on the statue I don't really care. I'll be happy with a stature for the firemen. I really think that's what's most important and is getting lost in the smoke. I think both side have valid arguments and I think the huff and puff is foolish.

I'm just irritated that we only see you guys when it's white folks being misrepresented badly, instead of when they lied in history to make themselves look better. If I saw you in both instances, I could respect your displeasure now.

	15-01-2002 23:13									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

Are there going to be statues for the policemen? What about the passangers on Flight 93? What about the office workers who died because they stayed behind to help others? There are more than enough heroes to go around, and not enough laurels and monuments for all of them.

To be honest, this whole argument just seems petty to me, on both sides.

	15-01-2002 23:32									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Is it some kind of coincidence that the Apolytoners who are upset over this are white?

Wrong, again UR. You know I'm not white, and you know this kind of thing upsets me.

--

This is something fundamentally wrong. The statue is almost directly from a photograph that appeared in 'The Record' newspaper. The differences? They changed two of the white men in the picture to a black and a hispanic. For the record, the photographer that took this picture isn't pleased with this distortion. Why don't we simply just take the photograph and use photoshop to make one of the guys black, and the other hispanic. Would that be wrong?

Why is it that I get the feeling if this was three black firefighters there would be no change in their race on the statue, and if there was, there would be protests galore, and many of the people here saying that this is no big deal would be up in arms about white supremacy winning again (I'm staring right at you che). For the record, I would also consider that wrong.

	15-01-2002 23:33									#77
	Get a bigger avatar today!

che beats Imran in staring contest.

	15-01-2002 23:36									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

what next

the statues for the guys on the pennslyvania flight crash will be hispanic and black.

I'm sure someone has a problem with the fact those guys that fought back on that flight were white.

I don't really give a sh!t either way. I just feel bad for the kids and grandkids of the firefighters who were in the statue.

But for anyone else, it really is none of their business. The artist can do whatever he wants to do (although he was influenced). This really is a personal matter between 2 of the 3 firefighters and the artist.

We shouldn't be getting involved.

	15-01-2002 23:41									#79
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara che beats Imran in staring contest.

No you don't! I stare harder! Ha ha!

	15-01-2002 23:45									#80
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, but I stare longer.

	15-01-2002 23:45									#81
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hey! Stop staring at that!

	15-01-2002 23:47									#82
	Put an end to popups!

Don't you think it's a little dry in here? All that hot, dry air, blowing into your tired, sleepy eyes.

	15-01-2002 23:49									#83
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hot air? Must be coming from you, eh?

No, my eyes are still wide open, you sneaky Red!

(My, this must be the most brainless threadjack yet... God, I love it )

	15-01-2002 23:52									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Imran, it is customary at the beginning of staring contests for the opponents to blink at each other. You go first.

	15-01-2002 23:54									#85
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Uh... I don't think that is a rule... but you know, I'm always polite, so I'll let you go first.

	15-01-2002 23:58									#86
	Put an end to popups!

Now that I notice it, you've winked three times.

quote: Hey! Stop staring at that!

quote: Hot air? Must be coming from you, eh?

And over in the Abu Sayeff thread. I'm afraid you lose, Imran.

	16-01-2002 00:07									#87
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Winked, but never blinked, boyo! According to staring contest rules, I'm still in it!

But you've lost I'm afraid... you've just , where you can see both of your eyes are closed... in a blink!

	16-01-2002 00:11									#88
	Support Apolyton

No way, hoser. You closed an eye, three times. You lose. Both eyes must stay open.

Loser!

Looooooooser!

LUZER!

	16-01-2002 00:18									#89
	Full PM-box? Change here!

No they don't. Not according the Logwarts Rules of Procedure for Staring Contests (19732 pages).

So you are the loser! Loser! Take that! Nyah Nyah nyah nyah!

	16-01-2002 01:07									#90
	Suffering from ads?

Logwarts!?! What? Grrrr.

I was playing according the The Brak Show rules.

BTW, that wasp stinging your eyes must be awfully painful.