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Kickasso
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Moscow, Russia
Jan 2002
time: 08:17
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Our success is close! I would like to repeat all completed or almost completed civs:
Russians (final):
1. Svyatoslav
2. Alexander Nevsky
3. Dmitry Donskoy
4. Ivan The Terrible
5. Peter The Great
6. Alexander Suvorov
7. Mikhail Kutuzov
8. George Zhukov
Germans (base):
1. Hermann the Cherusker
2. Karl Martell
3. Karl the Great
4. Friedrich I 'Barbarossa'
5. Friedrich II the Great
6. Three candidates here:
a/ Gneisenau,
b/ Blücher (please spell his name on english)
c/ Moltke
7. Manstein
8. Guderian
Roman (base):
1. Claudius
2. Trajan
3. Attilius Regulus
4. Octavian
5. Scipio Africanus
6. Diocletian
7. Gaius Laelius
8. Arbogast
France (base):
1. Vercingetorix
2. St. Louis IX
3. Philip Augustus
4. Charles V
5. Raymond St. Gilles
6. Leclerc
7. Napoleon
8. De Gaulle
British (final):
1. Albin
2. Alfred the Great
3. William the Conqueror
4. Richard the Lionheart
5. Edward
6. George Monck
7. Wellington
8. Montgomery
Aztec (base):
1. Cuauhtemoc
2. Cuitlahuac
3. Moctezuma not Montezuma
4. Tizoc
5. Itzcoatl
6. Huitzilihuitli
7. Benito Juarez
8. General Santa Anna
Greeks (pre-final):
1. Achilleas
2. Leonidas
3. Pericles
4. Pyrrhos
5. Belisarius
6. Basil Bulgaroctonos
7. Kolokotronis
8. Pavlos Melas
Persian (pre-final):
1. Cyrus the Great
2. Cambyses II
3. Darius the Great
4. Datis
5. Mithrades
6. Chosroes II
7. Sha Ismail
8. Megabazus
for American I think we accept original list but there only 7 persons there (draw your attention - all are generals, not politics or fantasy folks as for say Russia or Roman)
1. Washington
2. Grant
3. Lee
4. Sherman
5. Jackson
6. MacArthur
7. Patton
8. ??? - your ideas (Rivere, Lafaette, Powell  )
P.S. Yeah..rather weak persons in compare with Europe and Ancient civs but anyway they had some victories (but don't try to ensure me they were great, even for Washington)
NOTE:
We need Iroquios, Egypt (Ancient mostly - I think I will post initial list soon), Japanese (two heroes already marked by El Awrence), China (IanChinese - where are you?), India (I searched Indian Official Military Site but there is only modern heroes not Ancient), Babylon and finally ZULU!!!
Kickasso
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Manstein3
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I have to correct on the English first hero: His name is Alfred the Great, king of Wessex, who after heavy fighting (building of castles and a fleet) defeated finally the Danish at Edington 878 and conquered and fortified London. The following rulers Edward and Aethelstan defeated the remaining Danish posessions on English soil.
@Sir Ralph
I would not agree in putting Rommel on the list. He may be the most known one, especially in Britaqin and the USA, because he fought against them, but from a strategical point of view, Manstein was the fas better man. You can verify this: Manstein created the plan of the Panzer-Raid through the Ardennes in the flank of the enemy's main forces, Guderian led the decisive tank corps, and Rommel led the spearhead (or made his division the spearhead by advancing day and night) of the offensive, the 7. tank division, called 'ghost division' by the enemy because it was always 30 miles ahead of the spot reported.
Manstein, being a tank division commander usually, at that time surprisingly was in Poland commanding a reserve unit... The reason for this: the first class generals of the General staff did not like his plan - he was a 'simple' general at that time. (That is like a student who tells how things have to be done to his teachers.)
Mansteins greatest acchievements were astounding operation at the Russian front. Rommels tactical tricks are no match to the deeds of a strategic genius like Manstein. But Manstein really led his troops at the Russian front like Rommel in one of the first tanks of the attacks.
Later he became commander of the 11.Army which conquered Sevastopol against a highly superior enemy in numbers. Then he became commander of an Army Group or 3 Armys. Since then he could not lead his troops anymore at the battlefield but most important role of a military leader is winning battles, not individual bravery on the frontline.
Ralph, I totally agree that guys like Sepp Dietrich should be ignored.. It is better even to not drop their names at all. They do not deserve it.
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Manstein3
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@Killerdaffy
You are right, Manstein stayed aside of the attempt to overthrow the Nazi-Regime, but he sympathized. His argument was that he was too busy saving German troops of annihilation at the Eastern front. There is a story an officer of Mansteins staff told at TV: Manstein usually debated with Hitler to make reasonable desicions at the fronlines (and demanded even to give him the supreme command at the Eastern front), but normally could not get through. When he left the meeting and met his staff officer, he usually said about Hitler shaking his head in disbelieve: What an idiot.
Rommel wasn't part of the fronde against Hitler but the nominated leader of a post-Hitler-Germany. But he got wounded days before the failed assassination of Hitler, so he could not lead. Otherwise maybe despite of the failing to kill Hitler the overthrow would have taken place. In paris, for instance, the Wehrmacht (Army) had already put into prison all SS and Gestapo leaders...
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Plan Austral
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Poster Formerly known as Kublai-Khan. Buenos Aires - Argentina.
Oct 2001
time: 05:17
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I ve been talking with stefan haertel, (he is the guy who makes all those scenarios about persia, he knows a lot) and he told me that my list was appropriate, But he suggested me some changes.
1. Cyrus the Great
2. Cambyses II
3. Darius the Great
4. Surenas : In 53 bc he defeated crassus at Carrhae.
5. Mithrades
6. Chosroes II
7. Sha Ismail
8. Megabazus
How do we decide the order of the leaders?
Here is the story,
Three men, known to us as the First Triumvirate, seized power from the Roman Senate. The oldest and richest of the triumvirs, Marcus Licinius Crassus, became governor of Syria in 55 B.C. Like his rivals, Pompey and Julius Caesar, Crassus wanted to become a conquering hero. He decided to do this, despite the protests of cooler heads in Rome, by conquering the Parthians. First he got the money to pay for his expedition, by going to Jerusalem and confiscating everything of value he could find in the Jewish Temple. When he approached the Euphrates late in 54 B.C., the new Parthian king, Orodes II, first protested that Crassus was breaking all the treaties signed between Parthia and Rome. Then he sent an ambassador, who asked whether Crassus was marching on orders from Rome (in which case they would oppose him without quarter), or if he was on some private mission (in which case they would pity him for his senility). Crassus replied that he would give his answer in Seleucia. The ambassador, perhaps mindful of the first emissary who took insults from Rome, held out his hand and exclaimed, "Hair, Crassus, will grow on my palm before you see Seleucia."
In the spring of 53 B.C., Crassus crossed the Euphrates with 40,000 men and entered northern Mesopotamia. This move surprised Orodes; most of his army was stationed in the north, because he thought Armenia was Crassus' true objective. The only force near enough to oppose Crassus was 10,000 cavalry, led by a Saka named Surenas. Instead of taking Seleucia, Crassus foolishly went after Surenas. Since the Romans were all on foot, wearing the typical heavy Roman armor and carrying swords and spears as weapons, they never caught up with the Parthian horsemen. It was the same situation Darius I had faced when he fought the Scythians in the sixth century B.C., but the Parthians were better archers than the Scythians, the Romans were slower than the Persians, and Crassus did not realize the need to withdraw until it was too late. We dignify the resulting massacre with the name "battle of Carrhae," after the town in the east Syrian desert (ancient Haran) where Crassus made his last stand. For two days the Parthians ran circles around the Romans, decimating them with an endless rain of arrows. 20,000 Romans were killed there, another 10,000 were captured and sold into slavery, and only one fourth of the Romans saw home again.
Crassus was killed at Carrhae, but the details are not clear. The most popular story is that the Parthians captured him alive, and they showed what they thought of his wealth by pouring molten gold down his throat! Crassus did earn for himself a place in history--as the worst general the ancient world had ever produced. It took a long time for Rome to get over the disaster at Carrhae.
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Manstein3
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@SirRalph
Manstein sympathized nevertheless.
Another of his arguments against revolting was if he should turn around his armies and march to Berlin. He meant, the whole occupation of trying to win battles is doubtful if one begins to argue about political reasons. If a soldier starts to doubt the sensefulness of a war, he stops being soldier...
And the soldiers loved Manstein. He had a legendary name of winning almost lost situations and rescuing surrounded units, acchieving the almost impossible. In many cases he did.
When he took over the command of the Stalingrad rescue operation there was a popular saying at Stalingrad: 'Manstein holt uns raus.' (Manstein will get us out of here.)
He did not succeed though because of another Sovjet break through the lines, at the Italian Army's front which threatened to cut off the whole Caucasian troops, one Million men. Therefore the 300 000 Stalingrad men had to stay as long as possible and could not be rescued.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:17
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For Egypt's list, I would include Hatshepsut- a ruler in her own right, who also by some accounts, led the Egyptian armies into battle, but who also increased Egypt's prestige and impressed upon neighbours the power of Egypt-
http://www.bediz.com/hatshep/story.html
and:
'QUEEN HATSHEPSUT (1500 B.C.)
About 1500 years before the birth of Christ, one finds the beginning of Hatshepsut's reign as one of the brightest in Egyptian history, proving that a woman can be a strong and effective ruler. She was according to Egyptologist, James Henry Breasted, "The first great woman in history of whom we are informed."
Her father, Thothmes I, was highly impressed with the efficiency of his daughter, and appointed her manager, and co-ruler of his kingdom.
Before the King died, he married Hatshepsut to her half-brother, Thothmes II. His reign lasted only thirteen years. After his death, Hatshepsut was to rule only in the name of Thothmes III, until he was old enough to rule alone.
Hatshepsut was not satisfied to rule in the name of Thothmes III.
Hatshepsut dressed herself in the most sacred of the Pharaoh's clothing, mounted the throne, and proclaimed herself Pharaoh of Egypt. She ruled Egypt for twenty-one years. She also moved to strengthen the position of Egypt within Africa by making peace with the tribes of Kush (or Nubia) and sending missions to the nations along the East African coast, as far south as Punt (present day Somalia). One of Hatshepsut's crowning achievements was sending a mission to a kingdom in Asia (now India). '
Her achievements financed and paved the way for the military triumphs of her successor, Thothmes III.
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Dr. Nick
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Mola mazo!
Oct 2000
time: 01:17
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Manstein, all German generals in Russia were outnumbered every time they fought. Russian army doctrine dictates that, and has dictated that for 100 years. 
Also, ROMMEL! ROMMEL! ROMMEL! ROMMEL! Guderian invented tactics, so make a "Guderian War Academy" if you like, but when it comes to leaders, put ROMMEL!
English- I don't know, but I wouldn't put William the Conqueror in as a British hero, maybe as a French hero if at all. He invaded Britain and the Britons hated him. Instead, I'd pull him out and add Kitchener for his Egyptian and South African campaigns (yes, I know, Gallipolli) but he was one of the most admired generals of the Colonial War period and in Britain he was national hero.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by El Awrence
English- I don't know, but I wouldn't put William the Conqueror in as a British hero, maybe as a French hero if at all. He invaded Britain and the Britons hated him. Instead, I'd pull him out and add Kitchener for his Egyptian and South African campaigns (yes, I know, Gallipolli) but he was one of the most admired generals of the Colonial War period and in Britain he was national hero. |
Yes, I'm with you on this one- William the B@stard isn't a national British/English hero- he did after all defeat the Anglo-Saxon king, Harald.... forever commemorated in that masterful bit of propaganda in the Bayeux Tapestry...
I'm also dubious about Vercingetorix as a French hero and Boudicca as an English hero- what will we do for the Celts ?
Kitchener seems a good replacement, given his iconic status on war recruitment posters, the African campaigns against the Mahdists and the Boers, and that tragic death at sea.... a real Boy's Own Adventure stiff upper lip figure....
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Cossack
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Moscow
Nov 2001
time: 08:17
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I have been reading some of these names for the English, surely the majority of GL's should come from a CIV's golden age(s). For example my list for the English would be:
1. Alfred the Great
2. Edward I (Longshanks)
3. Henry V (Battles of Crecy and Agincourt against the French)
4. Nelson (Trafalgar)
5. Wellington (Waterloo)
6. Robert Clive (India)
7. James Wolfe (Canada)
8. Churchill (Second World War)
I have included some history for people who would like to be informed about the English heros Clive and Wolfe.
In some of the other lists I have seen William the Conqueror, Frobisher and Montgomery, and I have to disagree with these choices for the following reasons obviously William Conquered the Saxons the majority population at that time, I am sure that he wasn't envisioned as a hero by them, if William is in then Harold the Saxon leader at the time who William killed should be in for defeating Harald Hadrada's feared Viking army at the battle of Stamford Bridge.
With regards to Richard the Lionheart although a hero for his support and action during the Crusades, the crusades actually accomplished very little except providing some improvements in English castle design while his own kingdom suffered under the leadership of his brother John.
Frobisher was an explorer and Privateer as was Drake who was probably more of a hero at that time even though he was also mainly a privateer.
Churchill was Britain's greatest leader during the war, Montgomery although often a victorious general for the British in World War II, often waited until he outnumbered the enemy by more than 2:1 before attacking the enemy with overwhelming air and artillery support as well, his one real gamble was Operation Market Garden which was politically motivated (dislike and competition between Patton and Montgomery for supplies was intense) and although sound in plan was too hastily organized and failed to secure a bridge across the Rhine the main objective.
Cheers
The English Cossack
Robert Clive
The foundations of the British empire in India were, it is said, laid by Robert Clive, known to his admirers as the "conqueror of India". Clive first arrived in India in 1743 as a civil servant of the East India Company; he later transferred to the military service of the Company and returned to England in 1753, where he able to follow a comfortable life-style. But his penchant for extravagance and ostentatious displays of wealth, just as much as his electoral loss in his attempt to gain a seat in the House of Commons, opened him to the attacks of his creditors and political opponents. Meanwhile, in Bengal, where the British and the French were contesting for supremacy, the Company required the services of an able commander. Clive was eager to return to India; and soon the summons came. He arrived in India in 1756 and at once secured the British forces in Madras. He then moved to Calcutta, which had been captured by the Nawab of Bengal, Siraj-ud-daulah, and early in 1757 he recaptured Bengal. Later that year, on June 23rd, he defeated the Nawab at the so-called "Battle of Plassey".
James Wolfe
Major General James Wolfe, a 32-year-old career soldier and something of a prodigy was chosen to lead the attack on Quebec. Although the son of a general of marines and appointed an ensign at 14 years of age, he earned his later promotions to captain at 17 and major at 22 by intense dedication to duty, bravery in battle and remarkable military competence for his age.
Between 1749 and 1757 as lieutenant colonel of the 12th Foot, he trained and drilled his regiment so well, it became a model for the army.
They promoted him major general in command of the expedition to take Quebec in 1759. For months the army campaign was frustrated by the French General Montcalm’s successful exploration of the natural defenses of Quebec with its huge dominating cliffs. Although the city was ruthlessly shelled, the initial attacks failed, and Wolfe became sick, perhaps partly through the stress of command at such an early age.
He challenged his three capable but somewhat insubordinate brigadiers to come up with a winning plan, and they suggested an attack from the river above the city up a path known as the Anse du Foulon" or the Fullers’ Path.
To succeed, the attacking force had to navigate to the right place up the river in the dark, surprise and silence the sentries, get thousands of men and several guns up a narrow path up a steep cliff, then get into formation and fight a battle against the French forces on the open ground at the cliff top.
No doubt swallowing hard but with great confidence in his troops, Wolfe approved the plan. The joint operation succeeded brilliantly. In the set piece battle that developed on Sept. 13 on the Plains of Abraham in front of Quebec, the French regulars broke and ran after a devastating volley from the British infantry. Wolfe was killed in the action and became an instant hero. His French counterpart, Montcalm, was also fatally wounded and died soon after.
The battle of Quebec proved a turning point. Amherst went on to take Montreal in the following year, and French power in North America was broken forever.
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17-01-2002 21:48
Gupya dinasty, not relative of chandragupta maurya son of samadragupta). His reign is usually seen as the golden age of Indian history.He pushed west, destroying the last of the Sakas and conquering the Gujarat peninsula. Because of that the empire had seaports on both the Bay of Bengal and the Arabian Sea. At this point expansion stopped--not because of weakness or lack of will from the Guptas, but because it was no longer necessary--all surrounding states paid tribute and acknowledged Gupta supremacy
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