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Manstein3
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About Celts you have to take into account that it is only a name.
Ancient Gallia was obviously celtic. The France found in the early Middle Ages must have had a celtic population also, because Romans were not that numerous (upper class which dissapeared quickly as soon as conditions changed) and the Franconian (German tribe) emperors were also inferior in numbers.
So the French are a celtic nation, with small German elements (Frankonian, and later, Viking (Normannen --> Normandie))
Same is Wales and Scotland (? not sure) in Britain, and Ireland: all celtic. In Spain, there are too some Celtic roots still alive, I think.
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Manstein3
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I forgot the conclusion:
Therefore one can propose reasonably that Vercingetorix is a French war hero.
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alskdj80
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It really seems like all the Chinese have disappeared from this forum... I sometimes check in my limited free time but rarely post. However, I can't help posting here, I'm just afraid that another list of Chinese leaders are going to include non-Chinese people again...
I can't be considered as a historian, so take my words for minimal worth. Some of my info comes from unreliable sources, so someone had better check up on it.
Anyways, if I were to list historical Chinese leaders...
Han Xin - general under founder of Han dynasty
Sun Bin - general/strategist in state of Wu during Warring States period
Sun Tzu - general/strategist in state of Ch'i during Warring States period (well, he wrote the book didn't he?)
Zhang Liang - strategist under founder of Han dynasty
Zhuge Liang - strategist under Liu Bei in the Three Kingdoms period
Wei Qing and Huo Qubing - generals under Han Wudi in the Han dynasty
Sima Yi - strategist under Cao Cao in the Three Kingdoms period, and his sons eventually
I know I'm forgetting others... there must be generals in the Tang dynasty and the Qin (or Ch'in) dynasty (which is different from the Chin dynasty, which was controlled by the Manchurians)...
Anyways, I dunno if you actually want to add some emperors to the list... I mean, some of them probably spent most of their free time warring... and besides, I think Napoleon is on the lists? Pretty simple actually, just add the emperors or leaders (not generals) I mentioned... Han Wudi, Liu Bei (actually, not that great of a candidate, if you ask me... ), Cao Cao, Liu Bang (the founder of Han, so I'd say he's important), and add others like Tang Tai-Zong, Qin Shi-Huang, Xiang Yu (another secondary candidate)... just a short list...
Just to clarify... first list are generals, second list are emperors/leaders... the modern people are more known than the ancient ones, so I won't bother...
Better double check... and edit the list... I have a strong feeling that something is missing... just something to get started with...
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macaskil
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Since Firaxis includes Wallace in their "English" heroes I suggest we look at all heroes from the British Isles, whether Anglo-Saxon or Celtic.
English
Alfred the Great (held off Danes)
Athelstan (defeated Scots and Vikings)
Edgar Aetheling (threw out the Danes)
Edward I (beat Scots and Welsh)
Hereward the Wake (guerilla fighter against William the Conq)
Henry V (Agincourt)
The Black Prince (Crecy)
Drake (Armada)
British (ie 1603-)
Cromwell (not a hero to the Irish - but see below)
Monk (Civil War)
Marlborough (beat French)
Wellington (Waterloo)
Montgomery (El Alamein)
Churchill (leader rather than Hero -and descendant of Marlborough)
Lawrence (only Brit hero in WWI?)
Bader (disabled WWII Spitfire pilot)
Celtic
Boudicca (slaughtered 000's of Romans)
Arthur (if he existed)
Welsh
Llewellyn (last Welsh native prince)
Glyndwr (led revolt in 14th C)
Irish
Brian Boru (defeated Danes)
Michael Collins (hero to Republicans if not Unionists)
Scottish
Macbeth (not really a villain; first Scots king to visit Rome)
David I (Scotland extended to the Tees; he also founded monasteries and chartered cities)
Wallace (natch)
Bruce
Thomas Randolph
The Black Douglas(these last 2 were Bruce's generals)
Leslie (Civil War)
Montrose (Civil War - possibly the best military leader in Scots history)
Lord George Murray (Jacobite general - never lost a battle until Culloden)
For a laugh we could have some disastrous leaders such as
Edward II - lost at Bannockburn
James IV of Scotland - lost at Flodden from a winning position
James II - lost throne through political and military incompetence
Bonnie Prince Charlie - pointless campaign
any WWI general
any Crimean War general
any Boer War general
any American Revolution general esp. Braddock
any of the fundamentalist protestant Scots leaders (though God was telling them what to do....)
the Brit general at New Orleans
Admiral Byng (shot for failing to pursue the enemy)
Charles I - lost his head in a crisis!
Mary Tudor - lost Calais and failed to secure England for Catholicism by not executing Elizabeth
Mary of Scots - similar story; let her heart rule her head and then lost the latter
Edward VI - lost the 100 years war
I'm not sure where to put Harold. He beat the Vikings at Stamford Bridge, marched 300 miles then nearly beat the Normans. In civ3 terms had to fight on 2 fronts dozens of squares apart and nearly won.
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macaskil
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Before anyone points it out Braddock was a disastrous general in the war against the French, not the American revolution.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:17
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About France's heroes....
here's a link to Vercingetorix, and a good sampling of Celtic history. Brittany is a 'Celtic' nation, and has a surviving Celtic language, literature and culture. France does not- in the same way that Cornwall has a small corpus of Celtic literature, and a distinctly Celtic history. Thus, both Boudicca and Vercingetorix should be included in the Celtic list of heroes, rather than included in thelist of heroes belonging to the states that succeeded the Celtic kingdoms.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acr...34/rixmain.html
Vercingetorix could easily be replaced with Marshal Turenne, one of France's ablest military commanders ever, and hardly ever defeated in the course of the Thirty Years' War and the war with Spain.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6750/turenne.htm
A Thirty Years' War site:
http://www.pipeline.com/~cwa/TYWHome.htm
You might also consider Marshal Foch as a French hero.
http://www.worldwar1.com/biocfoch.htm - which Leclerc is being referred to on the FRench list?
As for the Egyptian hero from Islamic times, I would suggest either the Mameluke, Baybars, victor over the Mongols at Ain Jalut, or Salah ud Din:
Baybars:
'Egyptian Mameluke general, who commanded the army that defeated the Mongolians who had invaded Palestine, at the Battle of Ain Jalut (the modern En Harod) in 1260. After halting the Mongolian army and wresting the Holy Land from the Crusaders, he initiated several projects which made an important contribution to the country's development.
The threat of another Mongolian invasion led him to set up an efficient communications network, which relied on mounted messengers. The establishment of this postal system necessitated the building of roads, and the construction of bridges and waystations for rest and changing horses. The postal system thus contributed to the improvement of roads and security throughout the country.
In addition to his civil engineering works, Baybars also undertook construction for religious purposes - the renovation of the Dome of the Rock, and the allocation of an annual sum for its maintenance, the renewal of the state-provided food for poor pilgrims visiting the Temple Mount, the Cave of Machpelah (Tomb of the Patriarchs), and other sites.
His approach towards Jerusalem was a purely practical one; since it was a distant city with no political importance, the postal system did not reach it. He initiated the construction of a khan (inn) to the west of the city, where poor people could lodge and receive meals free of charge. '
and Saladin, who supplanted the decadent Fatimids in Egypt, and began the Ayyubid Sultanate:
http://members.tripod.com/~snowlion2/slahadin.html
Salah ud Din (Takrit, Iraq 1138- Damascus 1193)
'First Ayyubid sultan, and famous for having recaptured Jerusalem from the Crusaders.
Saladin was of Kurdish heritage, and at the age of 14 he started in the service of the Syrian ruler, Nur ud-Din. He started to show his qualities under 3 campaigns against the Crusaders who were established in Palestine. The first was in 1164 and the last in 1169. In 1169 Saladin served as second to the commander in chief of the Syrian army, his uncle Shirkuh. Shirkuh became vizier of Egypt, but died after only 2 months. Saladin then took over as vizier. Despite the nominal limitations to the vizier position, Saladin took little regard to the interests of his superiors, the Fatimid rulers. He turned Cairo into an Ayyubid power base, where he used Kurds in leading positions.
Saladin managed to revitalize the economy of Egypt, he reorganized the military forces and he started serious military actions against the Crusaders. Saladin suppressed the Fatimid rulers of Egypt in 1171, whereupon he united Egypt with the Abbasid Caliphate, but was not as eager as Nur ud-Din to go to war against the Crusaders, and relations here became very difficult.
When Nur ud-Din died in 1174, Saladin used the opportunity to extend his power base, and during the next 15 years he conquered many important cities: Damascus, Syria in 1174; Aleppo, Syria in 1183; and Mosul, Iraq in 1186.
With his new strength he attacked the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1187, and after 3 months of fighting he got control over the city. With this, the Crusaders only had control over the coast. A third Crusade of 1189 only managed to enlarge the coastal area of Palestine. Following an armistice agreement with King Richard 1 of England of 1192, the Peace of Ramla, the whole coast was in Christian hands, while Jerusalem remained under Muslim.'
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Bautou
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quote:
To Giovanni August: Thanks for Romulus and Costantine - they're unfortunately not a military heroes ( I take only warlords and generals ) |
Actually, if you're gonna include Octavian (who mostly relied on Agrippa to fight his battles), then Constantine would be an even better fit. Constantine essentially fought his way to power by winning over his army and becoming essentially a powerful warlord.
When he attacked Maxentius for control of Western Rome, Constantine's forces where outnumbered by a factor of between 2 and 4-1. He smashed Maxentius' forces at the Battle of the Milvian Bridge (where the famous message from God occurred) and later similarly broke Licinius' forces in the East. He also fought many successful campaigns against the various Germanic tribes in the north and was often acclaimed by his troops. Basically, he owed much of his power to his victories, much like many of the Roman military heroes.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by El Awrence
bloom- I had also thought of putting Salah ad Din as an Egyptian hero, but it would compare to putting Will the Conker as a British hero too. 
After all, he conquered Fatimid Egypt. It's not as if he was Egyptian. |
I take your point, but the Arab armies that supplanted Byzantine rule of Egypt were not 'Egyptian' either, and by the time of Salah ud Din, it was simply a case of one co-religionist replacing a decadent dynasty with revitalizing one. As opposed to the Norman French usurpation of an Anglo-Saxon dynasty- which of course led to a change of political allegiances, and a linkage with the continent that would not cease until the surrender of Calais under Mary Tudor. Baybars too was non-Egyptian, in the sense that he was a descendant of Turkish mercenaries, but Egyptians view both Baybars and Salah ud Din as heroes, so I took my cue from them. I've always had a soft spot for Salah ud Din- someone who seems to personify chivalry much more than that smelly crusading Angevin lout, Richard I......
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Dry
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Brussels
Sep 2000
time: 06:17
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My contibution for the French:
Vercingetorix: Is ok, because at school they learn about their 'ancestors the Gauls' and they consider Vercingetorix as one of them...
Asterix, is an alternate
Middle age period, I don't know so well, but St Louis was as far as I remember no great military leader.
So, I would say rather: Francois 1er
Godefroi de Bouillon: Unlike Philippe Auguste and/or Richard I, he was able to take Jerusalem.
Surcouf: The french Francis Drake
La Faillette: should I explain?
Massena, Ney, Cambronne: I don't know if the later was a great general, but he became famous in France by answering 'Merde' to the English who asked him for reddition (Compared to this, the 'Nuts' of Gnl MacAuliffe in the Ardenne seems very polite)
MacMahon: hero of the Criman war, but also victor at Magenta (small city in North Italy... and color of the French in civ3...).
Clemenceau, Foch: WW1
and of course...DeGaule.
...and today: Jose Bové
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alskdj80
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quote:
hey what do your nick mean? |
Lol, nothing at all... an attempt to stay anonymous... not really working though... most ppl can probably tell that I'm Chinese (or Taiwanese), but living in North America (cuz I don't have strange english, i hope??)... the 80 part is because Yahoo advised to add 80 after alskdj... i think cuz i put my bday to be 1980?? (which it isnt)... but anyways...
quote:
Only problem - no one from modern period (Chan Kai Shi is not the case here). I would appreciate if anybody suggest one. |
Try Sun Chung-Shan... called the father of modern China... I think in Cantonese dialect its Sun Yat-Sen... but since you're doing China and not Hong Kong, better to stick with the mandarin spelling (although I personally think its closer to Sun Zong-San, but )
On a side note... yeah, I thought Ramses II was more important than Ramses... whoa, Constantine as a top 8 Roman leader? I dunno... I mean, there should be a reason why he isn't included as the last 'good' emperors, shouldn't there?... I'd rather vote for Marcus Aurelius, and its not just because of Gladiator, hehe... just suggestions, I'm not going to get into any detailed argument, mostly because I don't know enough about the subject to argue, but from what i know...
But yeah, seriously, don't thank any of us... great job to you trying to compile a list that is actually historically "correct", instead of that kindergarden list from Firaxis... I think the only thing that was missing in the Firaxis list to make it a complete joke would be seeing Napoleon as an Aztec... they must have come pretty close to adding him there, seeing how their other selections were ridiculous...
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Plan Austral
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Poster Formerly known as Kublai-Khan. Buenos Aires - Argentina.
Oct 2001
time: 05:17
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There are lots of great generals and conquerors for the mesopotamian cultures, i will try to make you a list for tomorrow.
Last edited by Plan Austral on 25-01-2002 at 08:29
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19-01-2002 02:20
Why don't you place Attila in russian leader's list, he was from somewhere in Russia, didn't he?
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