17-01-2002 23:26									#31
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He said most, not all.

Jon Miller

	17-01-2002 23:52									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls Locutus: The pound coins here have one of: [...] So one God one, but that's what happens when your head of state is also head of the church I suppose...

You Brits are actually worse than Americans! (Don't worry, I still you Brits more - how could anyone possibly prefer American football over real football or rugby, or pool over snooker? )

Okay, so you win that one. But then again, Brittain isn't really part of Europe, now is it? That means the Dutch are still the most pious nation of Europe...

	17-01-2002 23:57									#33
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Thank God that many in the US are still faithful! I wouldn't have it any other way, even though the majority don't subscribe to my particular brand. But it would probably be a mistake to limit that to just christianity or even strictly religion. For instance, the Falon Gong is especially strong in the US. It might be more worthwhile to look at it as a civic/religious phenomenon.

In the end, Roland's suggestion is as good as any. American social institutions are inherently conservative. Put another way, they're stable and strong, and the societal MO has already been laid out. They work, despite many challenges having to do with sustained immigration from multiple sources. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Edit: I do note that Europe is in no way uniform on these issues. Germany has the CDU, for instance, and ethical issues like abortion aren't nearly as settled as portrayed in this thread.

Last edited by DanS on 18-01-2002 at 00:11

	18-01-2002 00:49									#34
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My bad Jon. You're right. He did say "most". Not sure why I thought "all". Like I said, "my bad".

	18-01-2002 01:15									#35
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There is that word......that assumes all Christians ar like this or that

You can't paint us all with the same brush, moron. I am catholic, P Robertson is Baptist (I think). There is a huge difference.....

	18-01-2002 01:20									#36
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Btw: Europe has more Christians than America...(200 million all of europe).

I just think its more the culture of America the breeds the nutcases...people grow up in these small towns, live picture perfect childhoods in rural areas..etc. (much like myself, but I dont hold radical views about Christianity)

	18-01-2002 02:50									#37
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here's a clinker:
are those nuts really true Christians...or heretics? how can you differntiate good theology from bad liturgy? ANd because the bible espouses so many points of views and can leads to all sorts of interpretations, who is elegible to say what is right and what is wrong?

	18-01-2002 03:36									#38
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American 2 main christian faiths are the Catholic faith is more based on the letters paul sent to the varouis mediterraenian churches. And of course the gospel..Baptist's are more Gospel and of course there are the fringe Revelationist's....the people who want to be martyr's and believe the end of the world is at hand.(yea christianity has martyr's also)

	18-01-2002 03:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by absimiliard (But I will grant you that none of them have military forces capable of taking on the secular government, though I believe that's less by their choice than by necessity.)

Choice or necessity, doesn't matter to me, as long as they aren't running around with Kalashnikovs.

	18-01-2002 04:00									#40
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faded glory: First off, let me say that you don't know me and clearly know nothing of my IQ. Now I will grant you that I'm not exceptionally intelligent but I believe that I quite consistently have tested at well above moron levels. Bank money that my IQ is at least 40 points above moron, even taking into account age-degradation since my last test. Please save the name-calling for the playground.

Second. Allow me to point out that "all" was a modifier to "American religious nuts" in reference to militantism. It was not a modifier to "Christians".

But since you seem to want to spat with me I suggest that until you are a member of a religion that hasn't murdered masses of elderly women by burning them to death and hasn't killed thousands on "crusades" against infidels you not cast stones. Did not your purported founder once tell you not to cast stones if you were not without sin? Catholicism has a load of fanatic-driven murders to answer for in it's history, maybe not recent history, but that doesn't absolve the religion of the blood on it's hands. (In recent history your church doesn't do so well either, witness it's actions during World War II)

Now, I managed all that without personally insulting you or calling you a moron. Try to keep any responses within the bounds of civility if you please.

	18-01-2002 04:08									#41
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Oh yes......you "athiest's" and your clean hands!

The 20th Century has breeded the worst fanatics. And they tend to be more of the athiest type. (Hitler, Stalin, Mao!?)



Oh and my comments werent directed at you moron. More at the thread heading......

But since you rudely attacked me, and tried to point out that you are "smarter than thou". Of course you dont know a dime about me..and you sure as hell do not know my IQ!

Not that IQ is a measurment of Intellegence anyway!? I always thought Common Sense and Judgement were alot more important in the game of life.

	18-01-2002 04:26									#42
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quote: But since you seem to want to spat with me I suggest that until you are a member of a religion that hasn't murdered masses of elderly women by burning them to death and hasn't killed thousands on "crusades" against infidels you not cast stones. Did not your purported founder once tell you not to cast stones if you were not without sin? Catholicism has a load of fanatic-driven murders to answer for in it's history, maybe not recent history, but that doesn't absolve the religion of the blood on it's hands. (In recent history your church doesn't do so well either, witness it's actions during World War II)

I believe that Stalin was an atheist, and killed/tortured/etc. many religious leaders or various faiths, and people who seemed to put Religion over the State (re: anyone who wasn't atheist who, they wanted to imprison).

	18-01-2002 05:09									#43
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You also have to take into account how much more rural America is to the rest of Europe. For obvious reassons people who grow up in rural area aren't exposed to as many ideas as someone who grows up in the city. This keeps little pockets wackos that left Europe still intact even though the rest of the world has passed by them.

I also cringe every time the president talks about God. For a country that is based on separation of church and state we seem a bit hypocritical. We're still having stupid debates on whether to post the ten commandments in classrooms and evolution.

Just for the record rugby is better than football but snooker and soccer suck goat gentilia.

	18-01-2002 05:16									#44
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quote: (In recent history your church doesn't do so well either, witness it's actions during World War II)

Oh God! Please tell me what Christians did in world war2 that was so awful... Other than what the rest of Europe did- Scared shitless bye the nazi's..


Muss. & Hitler: Athiest

	18-01-2002 05:22									#45
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Hey BOB. Yeah, the atheists have a lot to answer for too. I suspect it's a symptom of "being in power" and when a religion is in power it falls to the same sort of tactics. (I'm not sure why, but I feel compelled at this point to ask that you not lump me in with the atheists, I'm not one.)

I suspect the prevalance of nasty atheists in modern history is less due to their atheism and more due to the acceptance of atheism by the general populace. However that prevalance does not excuse the historic religious oppression, it merely equals it in horror.

Of course for every Stalin or Mao you have a Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Ladin. Plenty of inhuman beasts to go around on both the religious and non-religious sides. I will however venture that both Stalin and Mao were fanatics of Communism, and that they clearly viewed that as their "religion", even to the point of attempting to supplant existing religions with it.

I will decline to invoke Godwin's Avenger, thank you.

Faded, I never claimed to be smarter than you, I don't know you. I don't believe I even implied I was smarter. I simply resent being called a moron, or at least what appeared to be such. I would agree however that intelligence is much less important than maturity and commonsense.

If you wish not to be attacked by me, might I suggest that when you respond immediately after one of my posts with something not intended to personally attack me you make it more clear that I am not your intended target. A little clarity would have avoided this whole incident.

Lastly, might I request that if you want to insult me further you do it by e-mail (abenson@world.std.com) so that neither of us highjacks this thread. Highjacking it on a personal spat isn't really my intent, and I bet it's not yours either.

Last edited by absimiliard on 18-01-2002 at 05:58

	18-01-2002 06:14									#46
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It's a complete moot point.

The fact that those people were atheists was irrelevent; it had no bearing on their actions.

We're talking about people whose actions are caused by their beliefs - people who kill people because they "murder babies" (hypocrisy anyone?), and spread homophobia, sexism and racism.

	18-01-2002 06:24									#47
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quote: Originally posted by absimiliard (In recent history your church doesn't do so well either, witness it's actions during World War II)

Let's look at the actions of fg's Church/Pope during World War II then. It was during that that the Church put out the only encyclical it has ever issued in its history that was written in German denouncing the Nazi regime.

From the Encyclopedia of Catholic History: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937".

More info on the Pope:

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16) states: This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things.

And finally:

The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps.

	18-01-2002 06:32									#48
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The reason why we have more religious nutjobs is becausewe have more religious people in general and a more religious society. You have a more religious society, the religious come in all types, especially in countries with a protestant majority. America's greater amount of religion is reflected with politican saying "God Bless America" and us having "In God we trust" on our coins.

Of course, some of you Europeans need to look at your own countries harder, especially those of you that live in monarchies. The Monarch is, among other things, supposedly the protector the faith and the head of the state church(English Monarchs even today take the title "Defender of the Faith"). In some countries, such as Denmark, taxes go to support the state church. In England, the leader of the Church, the Archbishop of canterbury, is selected by the government.

Dinodoc is also indeed correct, in fact most Jewish orginizations praised Pius XII after WWII for his actions.

	18-01-2002 06:34									#49
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* We're talking about people whose actions are caused by their beliefs

That would be Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, Hitler, etc. Now can we cut with the idiotic contest to see who's belief system spawns the most killers. It is so ... childish.

	18-01-2002 06:44									#50
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Bill,

I quite agree, it's a silly argument. But once someone's said something, it's difficult not to respond. Those weren't religious beliefs or lack thereof though...

	18-01-2002 07:34									#51
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I apologize DinoDoc. You are of course, correct.

	18-01-2002 08:09									#52
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Who says we have a monopoly on religious nuts? Haven't there been a couple of extremist religious societies in both Canada and Europe in the past few years? I recall a group in Canada that staged a mass suicide a few years ago, shortly followed by a similar incident somewhere in Europe.

About 80 to 85% of the American population call themselves Christians, that's about 225 to 240 million people. Of that group think that 35 to 40% are Roman Catholics, totaling somewhere around 90 million. That leaves about 140 to 150 million Protestants, of which only 40 million are Baptists. That leaves a lot of Lutherans, Presbyrtarians, Methodists, Congregationalists, and etc. as the remainder. You don't here much from these groups because, believe it or not, they don't favor the showboating style of the televangelists.

Many of these groups are struggling with the great issues of our day, i.e., the acceptance of gays as parishoners and clergy, and the acceptance of women as clergy. In this respect our mainstream churches are way ahead of Europen churches. In the past the Protestant Episcopal Church has maintained a continuing dialog with representatives of the Roman Catholic Church in the U.S. That was up to the first ordination of a femal priest In New Jersy, adter which the conferrences were ended and have never been resumed by the Catholics. More recently one of our most outspoken advocates for gay clergy was given a complete cold shoulder by the Anglican Conferrence in England. Maybe the problem is that we're just so far ahead of the churches of Europe.

	18-01-2002 08:35									#53
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It goes back to the roots of the United States. As I posted in another thread - the United States is a child of the protestant reformation. The fundamentalist religious impulse goes back to the religious refugees who founded the United States. There is nothing new about it. That is why the U.S. is different on religion - its intimately bound up with the origins of the country and other concepts Americans hold dear like "liberty" and "freedom".

	18-01-2002 08:45									#54
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quote: Of course for every Stalin or Mao you have a Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Ladin. Plenty of inhuman beasts to go around on both the religious and non-religious sides.

In Saddam's case, I don't think that Islam has had much to do with it; when he first came to power, he was pretty secular IIRC, and no more likely to be an Islamist than, say, Fidel Castro would be a devout Roman Catholic. Of course, in recent years, he's no doubt looked for allies where he can find them, so it's quite possible he's friendlier to Moslem fundies than in years past.

	18-01-2002 09:14									#55
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I would agree that Saddam is mostly about power. I do believe he uses religion very effectively in rallying his people though. Similar to how a cynical, power-mad, cult leader might before holing up in Waco, or wherever.

	18-01-2002 09:14									#56
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Reigion is completely separated from whether you're good or bad. Religion is more of a "security blanket" than anything else - we want to believe that existence doesn't end with death, and we're willing to believe a lot of BS just to get that affirmation. In the past, religion also explained the things man couldn't - who created the mountains? Why does it rain? Of course, it's a lot more complex then that, but both atheism and religion have saved people in their own ways - neither has been proven to lead to either good or bad, and both sides are going to say that they're right, because obviously they think that.

There are bad people who use religion to excuse their actions, but it is clear that one doesn't need religion to attempt to justify one's actions. As has been abundantly pointed out, Hitler didn't need to - but the innumerable zealots and crusaders certainly used it effectively.

	18-01-2002 09:21									#57
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Pat Robertson is a Presbyrtarian, but he's not ordained clergy. The official doctrine of the Presbyrtarian church is much more liberal towards women and gays than he is. Consider though that he recently stepped down from his positions at his TV network and organization, so we won't be seing much of him anymore. He seems to have absorbed much more damage from Falwell's post 9/11 faux pas on his TV show than Falwell has.

	18-01-2002 09:35									#58
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The televangelist is the direct descendent of the 17th century travelling preacher.

The United States has an amazingly high population of Baptists. Cromwell considered Baptists to be a plague of vandals far worse than catholics. He used them for his political purposes but it was the fear of Baptists and their fundamentalist ilk ever coming to power again in Britain that averted civil war time and again in 18th century Britain. The Brits were very glad when the bulk of them decamped to the Americas where their influence has been felt ever since.

	18-01-2002 10:19									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Pat Robertson is a Presbyrtarian, but he's not ordained clergy. The official doctrine of the Presbyrtarian church is much more liberal towards women and gays than he is. Consider though that he recently stepped down from his positions at his TV network and organization, so we won't be seing much of him anymore. He seems to have absorbed much more damage from Falwell's post 9/11 faux pas on his TV show than Falwell has.

Yeah Robertson is not a good example of what Presbytarians are really about.

I've always been an anti-fan of Robertson's, on most of his programs, he compeltley tries to tell his audience which way they should vote. Total politics.

Every few days I drive by the Trinity Network, it's sortof an impressive looking building but is very gaudy looking just like the sets are on tv.. (It's the tv program with the lady with the big hair).

	18-01-2002 11:04									#60
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"As I posted in another thread - the United States is a child of the protestant reformation."

Actually, more then anything else the United States is a child of the Enlightenment. Nearly all of the founding fathers were deists-- they would have despised the Religious fundamentalists we have today. The USA took the idea of the Enlightenment philosophers and put them into practice, especially Locke and Montesqieu. But of a course, a consequence of being founded on Enlightenment ideas is freedom of religion, meaning we could never do what Cromwell did and kick out the baptists...

And as further evidence we don't have a monopoly on Fundies:

www.ianpaisley.org