18-01-2002 11:07									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yes, yes, but the question is why does the U.S> have so many religious extremists. The answer is because of the reformation.

Iain Paisely is a perfect example of the kind of militant protestant that went to the Americas to find "liberty". He and Pat Robertson are cut from the same cloth - that's the point you ninny!

	18-01-2002 13:40									#62
	Suffering from ads?

Well, this took off! I wish I could have gotten back to it before now.

Shi and AH make good points, but the question is still begged: why the US? Modern Germany, for example, is also a product of the Reformation, but isn't as plagued by religious extremism. After all, all the Christian extremists were talking about here were Europeans not too many generations back; what is it about coming to the US that spins them out of the mainstream?

Roland makes a good point about intellectual stagnation, but even that begs two questions: (1) then why don't we see the same phenomena on the same scale in Australia and Canada, countries with somewhat similar histories and similar intellectual climates? (2) It does seem paradoxical that a country you are calling intellectually "stagnant" (and I don't disagree) would nevertheless dream up all sorts of new spins on Christianity, rather than sticking with the tried-and-true mainstream stuff. If all of our institutions are consrvative (again, I agree), then why is there so much experimentation within religion and only within religion?

Curiouser and curiouser.

	18-01-2002 14:21									#63
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

"Modern Germany, for example, is also a product of the Reformation"

Only one factor among many (just as for the US). Also, German protestantism was to a good deal government-introduced for political reasons, just like Henry's anglican church. But maybe the religious fervour was better controlled in the protestant german churches, than in Henry's "I'm da pope" local version of the catholic church.

"(1) then why don't we see the same phenomena on the same scale in Australia and Canada, countries with somewhat similar histories and similar intellectual climates?"

Both haven't been founded on religion to the extent most today-US colonies had been. The forming of a separate identity came later. They did not develop the idea of isolating the new shining city on the hill from Britain and thereby also Europe. The intellectual climate is still a lot less conservative than in the US, wouldn't you think ?

"(2) It does seem paradoxical that a country you are calling intellectually "stagnant" (and I don't disagree) would nevertheless dream up all sorts of new spins on Christianity, rather than sticking with the tried-and-true mainstream stuff."

Dreaming up new versions is the tried-and-true stuff. Every heresy bore its own heresies. Ad infinitum. That's the reason I like early christian history, esp the Christology Dispute. It's stunningly absurd. With separation of church and state it is hardly surprising that organised religion desintegrates.

Also, how innovative is american christianity ? Apart from the Mormones, anything really new ?

	18-01-2002 14:45									#64
	Tired of ads?

Some of you still don't get it. The US is not overly religious when it comes to government. Sure politicians pay lip service to it. But the government is not run on religious values. If it were, why would we have abortion, people who can't pray in schools, issues in which the ten commands are not allowed in schools, or classes that mock students who dare believe in creationism?

BTW, when was the last time America launched a religious crusade? Or the last time we slaughtered people based on religion? All of our mistakes and bad deeds have been done in the name of the state. Not God. They may have wanted to use God as an excuse, but it was the state who benifitted. Just because we don't throw Pat Robertson and Falwell into prison for their views or take their organizations from them, doesn't mean that they control the government.

One more thing. What is wrong with people expressing their views if they don't hurt anyone?

	18-01-2002 14:56									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"Some of you still don't get it. The US is not overly religious when it comes to government."

Nope, that's not the point. The US government is more secular than many in Europe. US politics is less secular than Europe's.

"Sure politicians pay lip service to it."

And form their agenda accordingly. If it weren't for the political influence of religion, why would praying in public schools or creationism be such issues ? I may find a dozen Creationists here if I search long enough. And there are crosses in public schools with a majority of catholic pupils here - a fascinating legal problem going back to the concord with the Vatican, but not a single lawsuit about it. (There was one with a similar situation in Germany, though, where it was ruled unconstitutional.)

"All of our mistakes and bad deeds have been done in the name of the state. Not God."

Neither. Mammon!

	18-01-2002 19:03									#66
	Got spare money?

Spray, you guys allow abortions, but there's still an enormous controversy over it. Some states (Kansas, for one) don't allow evolutionary biology, a perfectly valid branch of science, to be taught in schools due to its supposed conflict with the way the Bible tells us the world works. A recent study found that 44% of American adults agree with the statement "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.", while 68% of people actually believe that creationism (a manifestly religious viewpoint) should be taught in school.

33% of Americans believe that the Bible is the word of God, to be taken literally word for word, compared with 7% of Britons. Other countries have their nutjobs, but large parts of your country seem to be dominated by them, and they seem willing to impose their religious viewpoints in public classrooms.

	18-01-2002 21:07									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lars-E Chegitz, ppl have been saying that for 2000 years.

Why are you dragging me into this?

	18-01-2002 21:26									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Far be it from me to defend them, but neither Hitler nor Stalin killed people because those two were atheists. There are no schimsms in athiesm. Atheism is not a movement. It's just the recognition that there is no supernatural world.

Christianty, Islam, Hiduism, Judaism, and other religions have killed as a result of their religious beliefs. Hitler and Stalin did not kill because of their atheist beliefs, but for other reasons.

There is no comparison.

BTW, the reason why there are so many religious nut jobs here in America is because they all moved here. The first European settlement in the US was in present day Jacksonville by French Hugenots (before their settlement was massacred by the Spaniards). The second English settlement in the US was by the Pilgrams, a group of people too uptight for the uptight Englsih and too uptight for the tolerent Dutch.

All sorts of religious groups came here: Baptists, Quakers, Shakers, Mennonites, etc., etc. to esacpe perscution back in Europe. And then came the Great Awakening (which also happened in Great Britain). When Evangalism swept the nation, circa 1800. We still feel the effects of that today.

	18-01-2002 21:40									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by faded glory Oh and my comments werent directed at you moron. More at the thread heading...... But since you rudely attacked me, and tried to point out that you are "smarter than thou". Of course you dont know a dime about me..and you sure as hell do not know my IQ! Not that IQ is a measurment of Intellegence anyway!? I always thought Common Sense and Judgement were alot more important in the game of life.

When absimiliard said that his IQ is at least 40 points above moron, he wasn't necessarily comparing himself to you.

	18-01-2002 21:43									#70
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Far be it from me to defend them, but neither Hitler nor Stalin killed people because those two were atheists.

Zip it![/Dr. Evil] I already settled this arguement on the other page. Why bring it up again?

	18-01-2002 21:45									#71
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Cuz I don't think you did settle it.

	18-01-2002 22:03									#72
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cuz I don't think you did settle it.

So, you don't agree that it is a childish and stupid arguement to engage in?

	18-01-2002 22:06									#73
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc So, you don't agree that it is a childish and stupid arguement to engage in?

This is Apolyton, are there any other kind of arguments?

	18-01-2002 22:08									#74
	Good one, che! Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is Apolyton, are there any other kind of arguments?

Oh! I forgot where I was for a moment. Carry on then.

	19-01-2002 00:41									#75
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Many of these groups are struggling with the great issues of our day, i.e., the acceptance of gays as parishoners and clergy, and the acceptance of women as clergy. In this respect our mainstream churches are way ahead of Europen churches. In the past the Protestant Episcopal Church has maintained a continuing dialog with representatives of the Roman Catholic Church in the U.S. That was up to the first ordination of a femal priest In New Jersy, adter which the conferrences were ended and have never been resumed by the Catholics. More recently one of our most outspoken advocates for gay clergy was given a complete cold shoulder by the Anglican Conferrence in England. Maybe the problem is that we're just so far ahead of the churches of Europe.

Ahead or behind...You have to be kidding? Or are you one of those Americans who think Scandinavia isn't part of Europe?

	19-01-2002 21:05									#76
	Tired of ads?

quote: Ahead or behind...You have to be kidding? Or are you one of those Americans who think Scandinavia isn't part of Europe?

Aparantly he is.

In Scandinavia or Holland churches are way ahead of those in other countries. That's also the reason the pope is concerned about Holland, because it's too progressive in accepting (for instance) homosexuals.

There still are a few protestant groups here though that are as conservative as your average American bible belt church, but they are few and far in between.

Churches in America in particular, and also in France and Britain, are decades behind churches in Holland or Scandinavia.

	19-01-2002 22:00									#77
	this isn't a threadjack, just a digression... Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BTW, the reason why there are so many religious nut jobs here in America is because they all moved here.... All sorts of religious groups came here: Baptists, Quakers, Shakers, Mennonites, etc., etc. to esacpe perscution back in Europe. And then came the Great Awakening (which also happened in Great Britain). When Evangalism swept the nation, circa 1800. We still feel the effects of that today.

And given that we were formed because of European persecution, does it not follow that we would naturally look with distrust at other European social views, be they religious, political, or legal?

Interesting thing about us: up to recently we could've considered England to be the "mother country," but we never thought of Europe as the "mother continent." While the US has been pretty open to all things British, like our island cousins we have never really trusted the Continent all that much. I mean, as far as social issues are concerned you guys gave us Hitler, Napoleon, Marxism, Communism, Jewish genocide, slavery, and colonialism. You might be the shits when it comes to the sciences, but why in hell would y'all even think that the US would want to follow your example politically?

Roland, "intellectually stagnant" is too harsh a phrase to use for a country that committed the apparently unforgivable sin of not following your favored political and economic biases and is, frankly, beneath someone of your apparent intellectual gifts. I do hope that you don't use this unfortunate turn of words when you discuss China, Japan, and other countries not fortunate enough to produce leaders ranging in quality from Joseph II to Hitler.

I will say that it has been a while since I've been surprised into awareness of just how different the US is from your conceptions. I knew y'all got some things wrong consistantly, but this thread has really hammered it home. Thanks!

	19-01-2002 22:14									#78
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus but they are few and far in between.

Actually, they live quite close to each other... it's called 'incest'

j/k

	19-01-2002 22:36									#79
	Support Apolyton

quote: Interesting thing about us: up to recently we could've considered England to be the "mother country," but we never thought of Europe as the "mother continent." While the US has been pretty open to all things British, like our island cousins we have never really trusted the Continent all that much. I mean, as far as social issues are concerned you guys gave us Hitler, Napoleon, Marxism, Communism, Jewish genocide, slavery, and colonialism. You might be the shits when it comes to the sciences, but why in hell would y'all even think that the US would want to follow your example politically?

A. Most settlers going to the US were non-English.
B. Slavery was abolished in almost all European countries long before it was abolished in the USA
C. you talk about the bad social and political systems Europe has produced, but why not talk about what the US did to minorities in the past? Mainly the native americans and the african americans. sure Europe has had it's share of helping to screw up the world, but the Americans aren't saints either.
D. "you guys gave us Napoleon". hmmm. As I recall the French under Napoleon had very good relationships with the Americans.

etc
etc
etc

	20-01-2002 01:37									#80
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Spray, you guys allow abortions, but there's still an enormous controversy over it.

Unlike, say... Ireland, where there really isn't that much controversy that it should be banned .

quote: Some states (Kansas, for one) don't allow evolutionary biology, a perfectly valid branch of science, to be taught in schools due to its supposed conflict with the way the Bible tells us the world works.

You misinterpreted that whole event, didn't you? Seems like most did. They didn't eliminate evolutionary biology as something to be taught, they simply said that creationism ALSO had to be taught. That might not be the best of things, but it isn't throwing out evolution.

And St. Mar... in a certain way, John is right. During the era of WW1, people looked on disdain at Europe, not wanting to follow that lead and glad that the US was isolationist. So, in certain ways it does work. And remember, we never really had extreme communism or facism gain much clout here.

	20-01-2002 01:44									#81
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The televangelist is the direct descendent of the 17th century travelling preacher. The United States has an amazingly high population of Baptists. Cromwell considered Baptists to be a plague of vandals far worse than catholics. He used them for his political purposes but it was the fear of Baptists and their fundamentalist ilk ever coming to power again in Britain that averted civil war time and again in 18th century Britain. The Brits were very glad when the bulk of them decamped to the Americas where their influence has been felt ever since.

40 million out of 280 million is less than 15% of the total population! Furthermore I don't think that Baptists (the American type) weren't even around during Cromwell's life. You may be thinking of the European Anabaptists.

	20-01-2002 01:50									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Lars-E Ahead or behind...You have to be kidding? Or are you one of those Americans who think Scandinavia isn't part of Europe?

Sorry! Scandinavia is a small part of Europe, having a total of less than 20 million out of a population of 350 to 400 million in just western Europe.

	20-01-2002 02:02									#83
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes, Jefferson, Franklin and Payne were confirmed deists at the time of the revolution, though Jefferson eventually came back to the Episcopal church as he grew older. Most of the other founding fathers professed some form of Christian faith. Adams and Hancock were Congregationalists; Washington, Mason, Henry and Madison were Anglicans. Washington and Mason in fact sat on the committees that drafted the charter of the Episcopal church. Patrick Henry tried to make the Episcopal church the state church of Virginia.

	20-01-2002 06:19									#84
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Spray, you guys allow abortions, but there's still an enormous controversy over it. Unlike, say... Ireland, where there really isn't that much controversy that it should be banned

Or Portugal...

They're hardly representative of what I consider "Europe".

	20-01-2002 06:44									#85
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Or Portugal... They're hardly representative of what I consider "Europe".

What? You mean Portugal and Ireland aren't the main players in Europe?!

	20-01-2002 07:05									#86
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There are countries with higher percentages of "christian" loonies: Lebanon, for instance.

The abortion question is not applicable to this debate. There is nothing in the bible about abortion or anything approaching it. The debate is therefore outside the realm of a religious question (though religious arguments are used regarding respect for human life...the question essentially is a philosophical one: what is a human life?)

Your question is also non-specific. You do not define what you mean by "nutjobs." You cite Al Gore saying that he asks "what would jesus do" as being a nutjob. You seem to mix together two questions: one about extremism, the other about the general level of religious conviction.

If you are asking why is there more Christian extremism in America than other countries, I think you should actually look at the percentages. How many people are actually involved in this extremism? What reach do they have? If you actually examined the evidence, I think you would find that there are just as many in America as everywhere else.

	20-01-2002 07:20									#87
	Put an end to popups!

Read my post/see my link.

The percentage of Biblical literalists in the population is ~5 times higher in the US than in Britain. I'm certain the British figures are similar to those for the rest of Western Europe.

	20-01-2002 07:25									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1) Most of the original settlers in what is now America were in fact English. Hence English is the language most widely used in the U.S. and so many English traditions are present in the U.S. (English common law is used, etc., etc.)

2) While I don't agree that "Europe gave us slavery," your characterization of the situation is far from accurate. European countries never really had much use for slaves on the continent because of the nature of European agriculture. They had no problem using slavery for their economic benefit. Let's not forget their legacies in places like Africa and Asia.

3) In terms of social and political institutions, I don't think any country has it "right." My ideal political scheme would be a hybrid: U.S.'s checks and balances and seperation of powers, Germany's federalism and SMD/PR representation scheme, a unicameral legislature, and England's party system.

4) No, Napoleon did not have very good relations with the U.S. Jefferson didn't like him, but wasn't too concerned about Europe in any case. The "good" relations were mere balance of power politics on the North American continent: the French would rather America have Louisiana than England or Spain. You should also realize the inherent differences in the French and American revolutions. France's revolution was a true revolution---which makes it inherently liberal. America's "revolution" was actually very conservative in nature. It's purpose was to preserve the power of the institutions (the state legislatures) already in place.

	20-01-2002 07:30									#89
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well, my guess would be that it is a product of the superiority of European educations systems (though I must say that the way educations systems is ranked is very poor indeed...they examine the wrong data. Good indicators of an education system's success are things like dropout rates, graduation rates, average class size, etc.

	20-01-2002 07:50									#90
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't want to be anti-american here

AMERICA CREATES NUT-JOBS!!!

If america didn't exist we wouldn't see these Christian Nut Jobs, or those Al Qaeda Muslim nut jobs either.

quote: Christianity is a thing of the past

I agree, it happened 2 millenia ago, can't those Americans forget anything.

I think the reason America has so many Christian Nut Jobs is because it has not enough SUNDAY TRADING.