17-01-2002 12:50									#1
	The Apalling Spectacle of American Christianity Remove this text

Why is it, do you suppose, that the US has a higher portion of Christian nutjobs than anyone else in the West/industrialized world? I've been pondering this lately, but with no real success. We've got people burning Harry Potter books because they're satanic; we've got people who force their schools to cancel Halloween celebrations; we've got people trying (sometimes successfully) to put biblical fairy-tales of creation into science curricula; we've got religious extremists (Pat Robertson, for example) who play a significant role in national party politics; we've got places (say, Texas) where you get seven people in a room together and, presto, you've got a new Protestant sect.

No other Western nation seems plagued with this. I don't think it's because the US is inherently given to extremism; on the contrary, there's more extremism in European politics and intellectual thought than in the US, and Europe can probably match us one-for-one on the high- and pop-culture front. But there's something about Jesus that brings out the loonies in the US to a greater degree than anywhere else. Theories, anyone?

edit: and yes, I know my spelling is "apalling."

	17-01-2002 12:58									#2
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And don't forget that Jesus actually visited the U.S. to help found Salt Lake city. You know, when Jesus makes a personal appearance like that, the people are bound to become a little fervent.

	17-01-2002 13:06									#3
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could it be that there are just more christians in the US

thus (if there are ther same percentage of nutjobs) there are more nutjobs

and it is in the nutjobs nature to stand out

(and I think that christianity makes just as many ntjobs as any other ideology or beleif (and despite what some people say, having no beleif would be very bad/it would be an extremely boring world)

Jon Miller

	17-01-2002 13:07									#4
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 And don't forget that Jesus actually visited the U.S. to help found Salt Lake city. You know, when Jesus makes a personal appearance like that, the people are bound to become a little fervent.

You know, when your God comes to your country and the best He can do is Salt Lake City, it's time to get a new religion.

Now, tell me Jesus helped found New Orleans, and you'll see me in church every Sunday!

	17-01-2002 13:10									#5
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change end of line two to be

more christian nutjobs (ie christian nutjobs make up a higher percentage of the nutjob population)

Jon Miller

	17-01-2002 13:13									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller could it be that there are just more christians in the US thus (if there are ther same percentage of nutjobs) there are more nutjobs and it is in the nutjobs nature to stand out (and I think that christianity makes just as many ntjobs as any other ideology or beleif (and despite what some people say, having no beleif would be very bad/it would be an extremely boring world) Jon Miller

Agreed with your second point. As for your first, the US probably has more Christians in absolute numbers than any other industrialized nation, but as a percentage of the population it probably has no more than most, and fewer than some. Yet they don't have these problems in, say, France. It's not the absolute number of Christian nutjobs I'm talking about; it's that we seem to have way more per capita: a hihger percentage of our population are Christian nutjob, and a higher percentage of our Christians are nuts.

	17-01-2002 13:33									#7
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boring. in 50 years christianity will be a thing of the past. Just let it drop. Christianity is not that big in the U.S. I don't know why everyone thinks that.

	17-01-2002 14:35									#8
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Part of the "problem" is that the U.S. has never had an established state religion, and has had the 1st amendment for over two centuries. Thus their is a lot of tolerance for different viewpoints, and no effective bodies to enfore conservatism of doctrine. Add to these facts that all of these various sects challenge each other for market share, which tends to spark 'innovation' as well as making a lot of people more nervous, often to the point of paranoia. I do notice that a lot of our wierder sects tend to draw adherents from other English speaking countries like England and Australia, which may add somewhat to our bad reputation while subtracting from the nutjob quotient of our best buddies.

	17-01-2002 14:36									#9
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The whole US retoric seem to be more in the direction of religious nut jobs. If someone in Denmark were to say "this happened thanks to god", like your presidents do, people would just roll their eyes.
In the US it seems to be a sign of a good and stable citizen citizen to be religious and saying things like the above, and so politicians are seen being religious in public. In Denmark the mark of a stable and rational person (like a politician should be) seems to be an atheist. At most you will see people from the most christian party say they live by the christian ideals.

It does not surprise me that in a society where the ideal person (the public person the presidents try to be) can attribute actions and results in the physical world directly to god, more people turn out to be nut jobs.

Last edited by Thue on 17-01-2002 at 18:09

	17-01-2002 14:47									#10
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What about historical reasons? We all know that many persecuted European christians came to the US. Now, if there are more nutjobs per capita, hmmmm. The American way of life, perhaps: Fullfill your dream, etc. Freedom, do what you want.

But if these nutjobs play such a dominant role in hi-level politics how come the US is the leading country in the world?

Chegitz, ppl have been saying that for 2000 years.

	17-01-2002 15:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E What about historical reasons? We all know that many persecuted European christians came to the US. Now, if there are more nutjobs per capita, hmmmm. The American way of life, perhaps: Fullfill your dream, etc. Freedom, do what you want.

Actually, the colonies were mostly a straightforward commercial proposition. The US likes to embrace the "escape from religious persecution" myth, but it really only applies to Massachusetts and Pennsylvania (unless you count Rhode Island, which is where people fled to to escape the tyrannical nutjobs in Massachusetts). And even if it is about freedom, why, given all this freedom, would we turn into a nation of snake-handling looney toons? Why not use the freedom for something extreme but cool, like orgies or something?

Sikander's point about the absence of an offical church is one I've seen made before, and I do think that has something to do with it.

quote: But if these nutjobs play such a dominant role in hi-level politics how come the US is the leading country in the world?

Well, we have this kickass economy and this big military and all these natural resources. That helps. But look at our political rhetoric during an election year, and you'll see the role this plays. It's not just silly stuff, like Al Gore claiming he likes to think "What Would Jesus Do?" It's the way, for example, that abortion has become a political lightening rod. No other major nation has that particular problem.

Please note that nothing I'm saying should be taken as anti-Christian -- just anti-nutjob. It's like Europe got the Christian equivalent of Sunni Muslims, and we got the equivalent of the Taliban. How come?

	17-01-2002 16:47									#12
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As for the starting position, I'd assume that around 1800, you would not find much difference in religious fervour between the US and Europe.
Monocausal explanations never work, but one big reason might be that the US is intellectually relatively sterile or stagnant. That is not negative in this context. In the US many ideas had won in the late 18th century that were still being fought out in Europe. As a consequence, the US was progressive back then, but had little reason to _be_ progressive further. Add to that that the big western landgrab acted as safety valve for many social problems. Socialism never really made it, and Fascism was present but controllable even in the great depression. The leftist agenda of the 60s was only partially implemented, and has been reversed since Reagan.
In Europe, those crucial issues remained unsettled for longer, and with the political instability, the nutjobs moved on to Hitlerism and Stalinism (religion and church in an extreme version), in the US they stuck with ordinary religion. Actually a pretty small price to pay for being spared 50 million dead. But religious extremism went under.

	17-01-2002 17:00									#13
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A lot of English Puritans ended up in New England (duh), but other than some rather odd throwbacks like Maine's (I think) alcohol laws, New England is hardly the hotbed of "Christian fundamentalism" in the States.

It's always amused me how the Presidential candidates fall over each other to say "God bless America"...

When Michael Chang won the French Open years ago, he said his victory was down to Jesus. He then lost in the early rounds at Wimbledon, and one of the more acerbic journalists asked him in the press conference afterwards "so, Jesus is more of a clay-courter then?"...

	17-01-2002 17:07									#14
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Well, the last time a politician here said "God bless Austria" was, I think, Schuschnigg. As this was in March 1938, it did not really inspire a custom...

	17-01-2002 17:56									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Thue The whole US retoric seem to be more in the direction us religious nut jobs. If someone in Denmark were to say "this happened thanks to god", like your presidents do, people would just roll their eyes.

Same thin in France.
It's amazing to read on a 1 buck bills : "In god we trust".
The word "God" is in all american mouht.
"Evolutionist/Creationist" fight is very important in USA...

USA is a big country with extrem things (sometime good, sometime bad, sometime just weird...).

	17-01-2002 18:25									#16
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Well, if we're talking money, Europe just got a little more fanatic: Dutch 2 Euro coins have a the text "God zij met ons" on the side (litterally this means so much as "May God be with us" but "In God we trust" would do as well)

The main reasons to have this was because it's a tradition (originally text was put on guilders to prevent forgery but with modern coins it's not all that important anymore) and to keep the Dutch religious fanatics happy (they're not quite as fanatic or powerful as American fanatics but they do exist).

So the infidel and heretic Dutch turn out to be the most pious people of Europe

	17-01-2002 18:52									#17
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Good points Roland.

It's always seemed sort of strange to me that the US started out as the most progressive country in the world in terms of government, yet seems not to have moved very much since then, to the point where it appears downright old-fashoned to much of the rest of the Western world.

	17-01-2002 19:48									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Well, if we're talking money, Europe just got a little more fanatic: Dutch 2 Euro coins have a the text "God zij met ons" on the side (litterally this means so much as "May God be with us" but "In God we trust" would do as well)

You're right, the religious history of USA roots up to the protestant settlers (Dutch, Anglican ...) fleeing a too catholic Europa.

	17-01-2002 19:56									#19
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While we're on it, when will Europe begin to do away with state funding of churches and religious schools? I know that state funding of religious schools in Britain is especially bad as compared to the United States...


Just food for thought

	17-01-2002 20:02									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch While we're on it, when will Europe begin to do away with state funding of churches and religious schools?

Varies from state to state.

I'm not religious, but I wouldn't want to change that. For a simple reason - as long as all private schools get similar support, you can in effect take your education-tax-euros from a public school to a private one, and only pay a modest tuition, usually. Makes for some competition, and we don't have to listen to politicians blahing about "vouchers"....

Some scandinavian churches are state-funded; I assume also in the UK. In Germany the church-tax only applies on members, it's just administered by the state. And in France, seperation between church and state is more like the US model.

	17-01-2002 20:02									#21
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timexwatch,

I agree with you entirely... however, in practice, it's not much of an issue. They're hardly "brainwashing schools" for the most part, and plenty of, say, non-Catholics attend Catholic schools and so on.

The USA may pretend to be have a secular government, but the reality is anything but. If anything, the UK bordering on the opposite.

	17-01-2002 20:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* They're hardly "brainwashing schools" for the most part, and plenty of, say, non-Catholics attend Catholic schools and so on.

Same here in the Netherlands, Catholic schools are really only have the word Cathlolic in their name (and you'll see some crosses on the walls and stuff) but they don't really teach you Cathlicism or anything. In fact, I went to a Catholic school myself and when I 'went in' I didn't know what I was but by the time I 'came out' I was a convinced atheist and proud to be In the meantime I had learned far more about Islam and Buddism and such religions than about Christianity...

	17-01-2002 20:30									#23
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Out of all my friends that went to a Catholic school, I don't know any that are still Catholics...

	17-01-2002 20:45									#24
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State funding of religious and other private schools is a relatively new Phenomenon in sweden and one that (hopefully) will be reversed soon. "Free Schools" drain resources from public schools while obviously giving out unbalanced education.

	17-01-2002 20:48									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase "Free Schools" drain resources from public schools while obviously giving out unbalanced education.

We already know that they give out a better education than public schools, Snapcase. That's the whole point of thier existance.

	17-01-2002 21:01									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase State funding of religious and other private schools is a relatively new Phenomenon in sweden and one that (hopefully) will be reversed soon. "Free Schools" drain resources from public schools while obviously giving out unbalanced education.

Well, of course I don't know the situation in Sweden but in my experience religious schools in the Netherlands are better than non-religious schools: next to the standard curricullum(sp?), most of them have a course which (most) non-religious schools in the Netherlands seem to lack. It's called something like 'life philosophies' (I'm not sure what the proper English term would be): it educates students about religions and other ways of life: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confusionism, atheism (humanism and other forms), New Age, etc. IMHO it was by far the most valuable course I ever followed in my entire life.

	17-01-2002 21:22									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch While we're on it, when will Europe begin to do away with state funding of churches and religious schools? I know that state funding of religious schools in Britain is especially bad as compared to the United States... Just food for thought

Religious school in France are all private.
In public school, religion isn't allowed !

	17-01-2002 22:04									#28
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Locutus:
The pound coins here have one of:
"pleidiol wif i'm gwald" - True Am I to My Country (or home sweet home is Wales)

"Decus et Tutamen" - an ornament and a safeguard

"Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" - No One Provokes Me with Impunity

"Dei Gratia Regina Fidei Defensor" - By The Grace of God, Queen, Defender of The Faith

So one God one, but that's what happens when your head of state is also head of the church I suppose...

	17-01-2002 22:51									#29
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Look on the bright side: at least most American religious nuts aren't militant.

	17-01-2002 23:22									#30
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Abortion-clinic bombings Loin. That's pretty much all that needs be said.

(But I will grant you that none of them have military forces capable of taking on the secular government, though I believe that's less by their choice than by necessity.)