18-01-2002 23:22									#1
	Saudis May Ask U.S. to Leave Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's rulers are growing more uncomfortable with the U.S. military presence in their country and may soon ask that it end, The Washington Post reported on Friday. Citing a senior Saudi official, the newspaper said senior Saudi rulers believe the United States has ``overstayed its welcome'' and its forces have become a political liability. The official told the newspaper that Saudi Arabia would prefer a less conspicuous military cooperation once the U.S. campaign in Afghanistan (news - web sites) is over. If asked to leave, the United States would no longer have regular use of the Prince Sultan Air Base, where American forces have maintained a presence since the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites). Washington's relationship with Saudi rulers has been strained by the Sept. 11 hijacked airliner attacks on the United States that killed about 3,100 people and were blamed by the United States on Saudi-born militant Osama bin Laden (news - web sites). Most of the 19 suspected hijackers were Saudi citizens. The presence of U.S. military forces in Saudi Arabia -- currently numbering about 5,000 -- has been repeatedly cited by bin Laden as a key reason for his violent opposition to Saudi rulers. The Post said among the reasons Saudis give for deciding that it may be time for the Americans to go is that they do not want to appear to be dependent on U.S. military support. The American presence has become a political liability in domestic politics and in the Arab world, Saudi officials told the newspaper. The Post said the Saudi government has also become increasingly uncomfortable with a role in U.S. efforts to contain Iraqi President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). The Post said Pentagon (news - web sites) spokeswoman Victoria Clarke declined to answer when asked whether Saudi Arabia has told the United States it will ask for an American withdrawal. ``We have a very good relationship with the Saudis,'' she told the newspaper on Thursday night, and ``we will continue to work with them in as cooperative a fashion as possible as we go forward.'' Saudi officials who spoke about a U.S. withdrawal told The Washington Post that nothing would be done precipitously. They said Crown Prince Abdullah -- the kingdom's effective ruler given the frail health of King Fahd -- did not want to create the impression that he was responding to pressure from bin Laden.

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http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/200..._report_dc.html

Now they ask us to leave after all the **** that has went down because of them. We should have left them to their fate long ago.

	18-01-2002 23:24									#2
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and we should ask them to move their ass over.
We're staying.

	18-01-2002 23:26									#3
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If it were only ever about protecting Saudia Arabia we would have. It's about protecting oil and projecting our power into the region. It was never about the Saudi's per se.

Anyways, good riddence. They aren't our friends. They fund our enemies. They have an evil and retrograde civilization, they are a corrupt and brutal dictatorship. I won't shed any tears when they go up against the wall. However, what's likely to replace them may make the Taliban seem tame.

	18-01-2002 23:53									#4
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Hey Hey!!! Saddam, old buddy ole' pale. What say we bury the hatchette old friend?

	18-01-2002 23:54									#5
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imagine all that oil funding a war machine ! oh wait ,that already happened in Iraq...

so I guess we will have to hold our asses tight even more if they go down .


Slowwhand : how exactly are you planning to do this ? conquer the peninsula ?

	19-01-2002 00:00									#6
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In the unlikely event that they do ask us to leave, the military better bulldoze every building we put up there, including that multimillion dollar command center.


A simple fostering, on our part, of democratic spirit in Saudi Arabia could bring down their little regime. You'd think the Saudis would know that.

	19-01-2002 00:00									#7
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quote: and we should ask them to move their ass over. We're staying.

See, that's called an invasion, otherwise known as an act of war. It would make us no better than Osama bin Laden, or Saddam Hussein - in fact, if we stayed even if the Saudis ordered us out, I'd have problems opposing people who attacked the US because of that.

	19-01-2002 00:02									#8
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Well, there was a suggestion from some columnist that we should set up an old-style colonial administration in the parts of the Gulf we like. Let the Sauds have Mecca and Medina, we'll take the rest.

Probably not too difficult militarily since we're already set up in the area we'd want to conquer.

	19-01-2002 00:09									#9
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Maybe Osama will go home. That way, scores could be settled all around.

	19-01-2002 00:14									#10
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quote: Probably not too difficult militarily since we're already set up in the area we'd want to conquer.

Harder than you might think, actually. We'd end up facing a coalition of Arab States, with under 10,000 troops in the region, with the Saudis and Kuwaitis and other Gulf States possessing a large quantity of modern US-built tanks and warplanes.

Then, when Iran closed the Straits of Hormuz through mines, it'd take a lot of time for us to break through with close-by resources. We'd end up losing whatever troops we had in-theater, more than likely, be cut off from Middle Eastern oil, and our only POSSIBLY bases in the area would be Israel and Turkey, although Turkey would probably tell us to go **** ourselves.

So it would come down to, I'd imagine, the Arab Coalition invading Israel after taking down the US ground presence in Saudi and Kuwait, and the US and Israel fighting against both them and world opinion.

	19-01-2002 00:24									#11
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quote: In the unlikely event that they do ask us to leave, the military better bulldoze every building we put up there, including that multimillion dollar command center.

Dont forget to take the damn planes you gave them.

	19-01-2002 00:28									#12
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US backed arab countries have repeatedly showed their utter helplessness in combat . during the gulf war , M1 were defeated by the older versions of T72 that would stand mo chance , usually.

let's say that a new government takes place in the arab peninsula. an extremist government . what would be the reactions of the world powers , namely US , China ,Russia , EU , Britain?

	19-01-2002 00:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Dont forget to take the damn planes you gave them.

Why? They bought them fair and square. If you want them gone, feel free to destroy the export versions of our hardware yourselves.

	19-01-2002 00:31									#14
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quote: Dont forget to take the damn planes you gave them.

As soon as we take back every scrap of military hardware Israel bought with our money, Eli.

quote: US backed arab countries have repeatedly showed their utter helplessness in combat . during the gulf war , M1 were defeated by the older versions of T72 that would stand mo chance , usually. let's say that a new government takes place in the arab peninsula. an extremist government . what would be the reactions of the world powers , namely US , China ,Russia , EU , Britain?

True, but if they throw enough stuff at 5000 US troops, I guarantee you they will win. Hell, all they really have to do is not let supplies through, blockade them in their bases and it's all over.

And we aren't talking about an extremist government, we're talking about the US, basically, invading Saudi Arabia.

	19-01-2002 00:34									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why? They bought them fair and square. If you want them gone, feel free to destroy the export versions of our hardware yourselves.

And this is exactly what we'll have to do if you're leaving.

quote: As soon as we take back every scrap of military hardware Israel bought with our money, Eli.

You seem to be forgetting who your true allies are.

	19-01-2002 00:41									#16
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Anyways, good riddence. They aren't our friends. They fund our enemies. They have an evil and retrograde civilization, they are a corrupt and brutal dictatorship. I won't shed any tears when they go up against the wall. However, what's likely to replace them may make the Taliban seem tame.

I agree with this 100% Che.

It's their country, they want us gone, we should go.

All of you that are US citizens are forgetting, this isn't our way, to force ourselves on others, it's not what we are meant to be.

Our "payback" for this betrayal will be when the Saudi royals come to the USA seeking exile after fundimentalist fanatics overthrow their corrupt asses, we refuse their entry.

Let the arab world police itself, it's not our job to be the world's policeman, even though it seems that way lately.

In other words, f*ck em.

	19-01-2002 00:54									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Kyle In the unlikely event that they do ask us to leave, the military better bulldoze every building we put up there, including that multimillion dollar command center.

We just gave specifications, so that they would be compatable with our equipment. The Saudis paid for the construction, a lot to US constuction companies. One of my war gaming buddies took two construction jobs there; best money he ever made. Hell, they even bought sand from Australia; theirs does not make good concrete, the grains are too smooth.

	19-01-2002 01:09									#18
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Yeh, if they don't want us there, we're gone, and ASAP. That's the way these things work.

	19-01-2002 01:18									#19
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Either way.
If Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. don't want us there, then don't be there at all, or be there anyway.
No more half stepping though.

	19-01-2002 01:32									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Eli You seem to be forgetting who your true allies are.

Allies that have to sit on their hands when there is a conflict because everyone else in the region hates them aren't the most useful allies. Sure you guys would be great to have on side if it ever came down to us or them, scorch the earth time. But otherwise, being Israel's friend is a liability. A friend I don't think the US should abandon, but a liability nonetheless.

The US should see this as a good reason to start doing some image mending in the area. Reach out to some moderate opposition political leaders and NGOs and start making themselves look more like a friend of Saudi Arabia rather than friends of the House of Saud. Start agitating for more democratic reforms etc. It'll piss off the rulers, but they are so scared of the radicals it seems like it's time to pass them by and start trying to appeal to the ordinary Saudis rational side (i.e. Get some friendly pundits to start asking on Al Jazeera "Would you rather live in Turkey or pre 9/11 Afghanistan? Because the House of Saud is weak and those are rapidly becoming your choices."). Don't know if it would work, but the status quo and war aren't the greatest options either.

	19-01-2002 01:32									#21
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The King of Saudi Arbaia is the recognized soverign ruler of Saudi Arabia, and it owuld be perfectly within our rights to tell them to leave. Of course, we can always make it known that should our forces be expelled, we will activley fund and aid liberal opposition groups-- and do an investigation to see if they help anti-US terrorists and if so we can Afghanistan them. We can also tell them that should our forces leave they will receive no more military hardware or support for what they have brought from us, and that Israel will get even more aid.

I think his majesty can be persuaded that he is better off with our troops then without them.

	19-01-2002 01:35									#22
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I'm just tired of people that want it all, free of charge, just how they want it.

	19-01-2002 01:35									#23
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Everyone:

If Saudi Arabia wishes to disassociate itself with the U.S. military, then so be it. It will do nothing for their homegrown terrorism problems.

What are the odds we would see a fundamentalist regime come to power in Saudi Arabia? I hear that the fundies are even beginnning to retake the halls of power in Kuwait. Perhaps both nations need to spend a decade or two under an Iran-like regime to wholly understand why many of Iran's young people today are clamoring for something different?

Or perhaps both nations need to get their asses kicked in — permanently — by a revenge-crazed Iraq? That likely won't happen, I'd think. Even if America is told to butt out, we'd step in again should Iraq make any moves. Perhaps that's what the Saudis are truly counting on? Best of both worlds for them, eh? They'd be able to say that Islamic and Arabic concerns come first for them — demonstratd by booting America out — while also (correctly) knowing that America still wouldn't let Iraq take any action against the Saudis or Kuwait, no matter how ill-positioned our frontline reaction forces might be.

Oooh. This could be a juicy situation should U.S. troops actually leave the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

CYBERAmazon

	19-01-2002 01:37									#24
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It's kinda funny. Earlier this week I read that the US was questioning whether to reduce our pressence there after the current actions are over. In both the House and Senate. So is this latest article a response to the one earlier this week or visa versa. Maybe it's just a game of saving face. You're not leaving, we're kicking you out. No you're not kicking us out, we're leaving.

The article I did read. (sorry no link) did mention that quite a few of the improvments at that command center were paid by the US.


RAH
Just another twist in the story.

	19-01-2002 02:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon What are the odds we would see a fundamentalist regime come to power in Saudi Arabia?

100%

There is already a fundimentalist regime in Saudi Arabia. It is called the House of Saud, the ruling family. They are followers of the extremeist Islamist sect known as Wahabism. Wahabism is the same sect of Islam to which the Taleban belong.

	19-01-2002 02:23									#26
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rah: yeh, that's an interesting point, but this looks to me like a trial balloon that got a little too much coverage--it's a political class to political class proposal. The original Washington Post article is a lot more detailed.

Overall, I would be happy to see it, if we can substitute other military arrangements/technologies. Even though we're friends--which won't change--we don't see eye to eye on a lot of topics, such as the implementation and promotion of Sharia (the root of all this BS).

It's funny that our and Iran's natural interests are becoming aligned over time. Downright ironic, I'd say.

Last edited by DanS on 19-01-2002 at 02:36

	19-01-2002 02:38									#27
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Yes, thanks for the link. I still get the feeling even after reading it that it's going to be a face saving contest. The Saudi's would love to get the extra respect in the ME by being able to say they kicked us out. (and possibly some security from future terrorist acts aimed at us or their policy). But if it comes to that, I guarentee that all the previous proposals to pull them out (that were ignored at the time) will be trotted out again to make it sound like it was the smart thing for us pull our troops out.

But it does look like everyone recognizes that if it happens today, it will look like OBL won. And I don't think either side wants that to be the perception.

RAH

	19-01-2002 02:46									#28
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I think rahter trail balloning, they are desensitizing. Both parties will float premonitions of it for a while, so that it is less newsworther when it does happen down the line.

	19-01-2002 03:06									#29
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Yeah you could be right, but the Saudi's will get mucho "Polictical Value" in the area, when they do it, that it would be naive to think they wouldn't try to leverage it to the best advantage.
There's not really any political upside for the US, so I think the stratagy will be to minimize the downside.

Rich

	19-01-2002 03:25									#30
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"I think rahter trail balloning, they are desensitizing."

Lefty: You might be right. For my own account when reading the paper, I find it hard to distinguish between those tasks in this this context. But I can't help but think that the Saudi "officials" ( ) wanted it below the front page fold like Iran's message a couple of months ago wrt Afghanistan rather than above it and to have it on the wires does nobody any good.

Rah: Another interesting thing to consider is that this might be Saudi Arabia throwing in the towel on American public opinion (where this stuff actually matters) rather than this bogus "Arab street" stuff. Saudi Arabia spent a ton of money post-9/11 on advertising in places like The Post and sent Saudi quasi-ambassadors to any TV talk show that would invite them. But in spite of this, I think that the response from the American public (and by extension her politicians) has been downright frosty and blunt, keeping in mind that the majority of the 9/11 terrorists were from the kingdom. You could almost go down the article line by line, swapping "American" for "Saudi Arabian" and it would be no less true an article.

Last edited by DanS on 19-01-2002 at 03:34