31-01-2002 03:04									#121
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MarkG actually, that [an editor being released] has already be done....

I'm sorry, I had in mind a useful tool.

You realize that is exactly what I am talking about. The fact that no one who counts can say, officially, that isn't all we are to get - that is the crux of the issue.

	31-01-2002 05:25									#122
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by jackshot The fact that no one who counts can say, officially, that isn't all we are to get - that is the crux of the issue.

check the christmas chat transcript or do a search for firaxian posts on this forum

if you dare to believe, the truth is out there

	31-01-2002 06:15									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Relax, they have had holidays. Also how long did they work with the first patch? (My guess is that they started when the game went gold)

These are my guesses too.

Civ3 went gold in the middle of October.
Civ3 was released at the end of October.
First patch was released about eight weeks after the game went gold.

If we assume they've been working on the second patch since the first patch was released, and they have had two weeks of holidays for Christmas and New Year, and the second patch takes about as long as the first to produce, then I expect to see the second patch in the last half of February.

	31-01-2002 06:32									#124
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS I cannot and will not discuss the contents of what may or may not be in any forthcoming patches. It's neither my responsibility nor my right to do so.

There's a reason for this. Sometimes fixing a bug causes other bugs to appear. If these new bugs are easy to fix there's no problem, but if the new bugs prove to be too hard to fix then the fix for the original bug must be discarded. The same goes for any new features that may be added. If the new features are too buggy they must be left out.

I would rather have the knowledge that a patch is being worked on than know the specifics of what it may contain because the contents are still subject to change. If FIRAXIS said that something was to be included in the patch and the patch didn't have that change after all when it was released, you can bet your last kidney that the Apolyton forum would have a dozen threads complaining about the omissions inside a day.

	31-01-2002 06:36									#125
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by MarkG check the christmas chat transcript or do a search for firaxian posts on this forum if you dare to believe, the truth is out there

Why don't you set up a "link" or "quote" and I'll be more inclined to believe you.

Charles.

	31-01-2002 06:56									#126
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by CharlesUFarley Why don't you set up a "link" or "quote" and I'll be more inclined to believe you.

sorry, the truth is only for those who are willing to go out and find it. it's not for old almost-bored-to-death sitting-in-their-chairs-dreaming-of-glory-civ2-days people

	31-01-2002 08:31									#127
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Here's *my* question:

How did this 'mild' accusation-fest recieve 5 Stars?

	31-01-2002 08:38									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by N. Machiavelli Here's *my* question: How did this 'mild' accusation-fest recieve 5 Stars?

My question...where the hell is libertarian?! It's like somebody turned the volume of general from 11 to 3!

	31-01-2002 08:43									#129
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by MOHonor My question...where the hell is libertarian?! It's like somebody turned the volume of general from 11 to 3!

Perhaps, just perhaps. He is in the mystic place some of us refer to as "The Real World". The magic zone *outside* of the board where people go to work, or eat, or spend time with their significant others. Scary place.

Heh, I've been away from the board for 2 months....glad to see nothing nor anybody has changed.

	31-01-2002 11:53									#130
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by MarkG check the christmas chat transcript or do a search for firaxian posts on this forum if you dare to believe, the truth is out there

Mark, I've read these things and yes, I think Firaxis is going to make the effort. You misunderstand me.

But belief is not the issue - the "truth" is not here, only some hints at the truth. The truth of the record is that Firaxis deliberately shys away from creating any definite "truth" of what is to happen.

I don't know why. It is odd, that is all I know about it.

	31-01-2002 12:37									#131
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quote: Originally posted by star mouse There's a reason for this. Sometimes fixing a bug causes other bugs to appear. If these new bugs are easy to fix there's no problem, but if the new bugs prove to be too hard to fix then the fix for the original bug must be discarded. The same goes for any new features that may be added. If the new features are too buggy they must be left out. I would rather have the knowledge that a patch is being worked on than know the specifics of what it may contain because the contents are still subject to change. If FIRAXIS said that something was to be included in the patch and the patch didn't have that change after all when it was released, you can bet your last kidney that the Apolyton forum would have a dozen threads complaining about the omissions inside a day.

Bingo.

They don't have to tell us all. That would be silly. Do you expect the driver to be able to describe every bend in an untravelled road for you?

But they could tell us what the next major city in the trip will be. That's pretty basic isn't it?

We're working on a patch/ sorry, no patch at this time, we're moving on to an XP/ sorry, we're done, BTW here's a complete editor, happy CTP2

To return to an earlier point. A large part of the problem is that there is no one place to go to review all the info from Firaxis. Maybe if there were there would be less b*tching and kvetching. I am reasonably sure that they are working on a patch right now. But I'm not certain, and I'm sure as h*ll not going to go digging through searches to reassure myself. But, hey, what if someone else missed that thread? They wouldn't have a clue. All they would have is Fox *Markos* Mulder urging them on with the platitude that *the Truth is out there* and Joe *Regis* Firaxian making snide comments at them. Or so it seems.

Salve

	31-01-2002 12:42									#132
	Put an end to popups!

**sniff** Reminds me of a younger me ...

	31-01-2002 12:45									#133
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OMG

Now my blood has run cold.

Father?

Salve

	31-01-2002 12:48									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes, Luke. Time to join The Dark Side.

	31-01-2002 12:50									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Noooo. Neeeevvvvverrrrrr.

[Leaps to certain doom, only to be seen again]

Salve

	31-01-2002 14:37									#136
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Mouse - "If FIRAXIS said that something was to be included in the patch and the patch didn't have that change after all when it was released, you can bet your last kidney that the Apolyton forum would have a dozen threads complaining about the omissions inside a day."

This argument is idiotic. Why would they care about complaint threads? They certainly don't care now. As it is there must be three dozen threads complaining about lack of any feedback. They don't care. Plus, they already did promise things that were not included in the game leading many to complain about it being rushed. They didn't really care about that. Why would they?

	31-01-2002 15:04									#137
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by kimmygibler They don't care. Plus, they already did promise things that were not included in the game leading many to complain about it being rushed. They didn't really care about that. Why would they?

Maybe, they don't want to make same mistake twice?

	31-01-2002 15:32									#138
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by jackshot The truth of the record is that Firaxis deliberately shys away from creating any definite "truth" of what is to happen. I don't know why. It is odd, that is all I know about it.

read a certain quote on my sig. perhaps you'll get some ideas

	31-01-2002 16:32									#139
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Pherhaps it's a good idea to make a summary of all questions Firaxis has already answered during the past 4 months.......... (including the answers of course)

and a summary of all regular complains / rants, so every @sshole on this forum can check out this list to check out if their rant already exists.

	31-01-2002 16:51									#140
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Pherhaps it's a good idea to make a summary of all questions Firaxis has already answered during the past 4 months.......... (including the answers of course) and a summary of all regular complains / rants, so every @sshole on this forum can check out this list to check out if their rant already exists.

MoO 3 section first, please!

*sprints away*

	31-01-2002 18:19									#141
	How about the AI tech trading bug? Support Apolyton

I have a question, and even if it might sound as it is about the patch, it isn't.

Here goes, someone wrote this in another thread, a quote from a chat:

quote: [draz2] is the trading tech bug being fixed? where comp trades in your turn? [Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I don't think so. I think Soren likes it that way...though I'm not sure

My question is, is this still Soren's opinion (if it ever was)? Note that this is not me asking whether the bug will be fixed in the patch, as I understand that there is a possibility you tried to fix it, but it turned out to be too complicated. What I want to know is if you consider this a bug, or are satisfied of the way it works. I ask since this is the single reason I don't play the game.

	31-01-2002 19:00									#142
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by MarkG sorry, the truth is only for those who are willing to go out and find it. it's not for old almost-bored-to-death sitting-in-their-chairs-dreaming-of-glory-civ2-days people

Well regardless of where I'm sitting, and which version of the Civ Genre I prefer, and bored to death - I still don't believe you.

Charles.

	31-01-2002 19:05									#143
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Pherhaps it's a good idea to make a summary of all questions Firaxis has already answered during the past 4 months.......... (including the answers of course) and a summary of all regular complains / rants, so every @sshole on this forum can check out this list to check out if their rant already exists.

No, because that would be a good idea! Who would ever dare to get organized? I'm sure if the @ssholes who started all this fuss did their job in the first place, the other @ssholes wouldn't be here complaining about @ssholes. Make sense?

Charles.

	31-01-2002 19:21									#144
	Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MarkG read a certain quote on my sig. perhaps you'll get some ideas

Something about "we try to respond to things that we have confimed to be definate, and unless it is confirmed we cannot respond" isn't that the same thing as saying "we can't tell you anything until the development is finished, or 1 week prior to release"? I mean I can understand that they can't tell us things they do not even know, but in this case they KNOW what they're working on, but don't want to give us mid-development details. We're not asking for the "definates" we're asking for the "development ideas" what they 'intend' on implimenting and what they can't impliment - this would give the community a better leg to stand on, and it would deminish any false hopes, and create a platform of realism between the community and Firaxis - rather than this Area-51 behaviour.

Basically they're saying that they won't give us inside development details until the patch/xp is finished. I think that's bogus because what if we don't like the changes, or the changes weren't enough. It's a "what you get, is what you get" kind of attitude. They've completely cut the community out of the loop on this one IMO. And why is it so ridiculous for them to understand that perhaps the community just might make this game better!

Charles.

	31-01-2002 20:19									#145
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Anything they may be working on that their publisher is paying them for can have an NDA attached. If a Firaxian came here and gave out information that was not approved for release they could cost the company a lot of money and lose their job. After the mistakes made earlier with promising multiplayer it may well be the NDA got tightened this time. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Its exactly the same policy many other developers have to work under. You make it sound like Firaxis is abnormal for keeping tight lipped. On the contrary, they were uncharacteristically forthcoming in the past and got burned for it.

	31-01-2002 20:30									#146
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I dont think this argument is getting anywhere, nor is it productive. Furthermore I think all threads with the subject 'where is the patch?' should be closed until Firaxis anounces something. Just my opinion, otherwise continue pointless bickering.

	31-01-2002 20:37									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Grumbold speaks the truth.

Pythagoras is right on target.

	31-01-2002 20:48									#148
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lack of concern for the product and its future Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by MarkG read a certain quote on my sig. perhaps you'll get some ideas "We try to respond to questions which we know the answers to and which we can answer because the feature is confirmed" - Dan Magaha, Civ3 Christmas Chat

Then I'm left with the impression that the company still has no specific idea just what they are going to do with all the manhours they've spent since November.

If that were true, it would be a significant fact in it's own right. But I think it's more likely they know, and they're not telling. Which is their right, of course - but it does render your point rather moot.

But perhaps you are refering to the policy they SHOULD be using, in which case I wholeheartedly agree. My point all along has been that SHOULD is not a driving force in their discussions. That feature has not been confirmed.

The policy is fine, but it is getting to the point that if it were honest there would be some confirmations on the table by now. Patience is a virtue, but time is its own judge.

	31-01-2002 21:41									#149
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Other game companies don't give notice of what's in a patch until the patch is released or just before. Why should Firaxis be any different?

	31-01-2002 23:43									#150
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Jesus. Here's my 2 cents.

We NEED a patch. Everyone knows this, including Firaxis.

We NEED a common place to go and look for answers. Mark I'm new to the forum and can say as an unbiased observer that you're being extemely difficult. If there's answers, show us. Sure we can spend our time searching for them but alot of us have other things to do and already probably spend more time than we should at this forum.

We NEED Firaxis employees to grow up. Why pop in and stir things up by giving a half-a** answer. Sure, I'm glad that at least someone's listening, but don't respond in ways that will cause a 5 page b****ing session.

We all NEED to chill the **** out. I understand the frustration on both sides and can't seem to get as worked up about it as others do. I like Civ 3. I'm dissapointed by it too. If Firaxis makes another game like it, I'll just stop buying their products. They could care less about me b****ing, so I don't waste my breath. It sucks, but it's true. That being said, I hope they DO care about the constructive criticism in this forum. If not, its their loss, and it will show in their ever so important profits.

I think the solution is this.

Mark: Give us somewhere to find the answers.

Firaxis: Answer the questions you can and nothing else. Giving us the run around by providing hints to answers to questions that can't be answered causes nothing but grief. Although many may disagree with me here, I think a simple "I can't answer that" is better than "I can't answer that but I'll give you a hint". Save us all some grief, fix this abomination, and save your reputation before its too late. There's alot of dissatisfied customers out there, and they're not just those who always criticize who are dissapointed. You chose to take on the task of delivering a new and improved 3rd installment of Civ and failed. Now fix it.

Everyone else: Calm down. If Firaxis says they can't answer, they can't answer. If you feel they should, state that and move on. By continually nagging them we end up with the kind of crap that has happened here. If they don't fix what they've done, to hell with them. Criticism is the best thing Firaxis can ask for but there's a fine line between constructive and destuctive criticism.

I"m not jumping on anyone's bandwagon. I'm just trying to step back and see this from an unbiased view.