31-01-2002 23:51									#151
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Archaetus Although many may disagree with me here, I think a simple "I can't answer that" is better than "I can't answer that but I'll give you a hint".

Look thead at strtegy forums called "Inquiry for Firaxis".
There you'll find answers. (although 80% of answers are: "I don't know")

	01-02-2002 00:16									#152
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Archaetus I agree with everything you said! You are just keeping it real!

But I think your comments will fall on deaf ears with Firaxis and as for Mark he will just give you some B-S.

I always say a little good PR from Firaxis would do wonders and again please don't tell me they are so busy. They have enough time to com on these boards and Slap people around especially when it comes to Money! Just ask that guy named CharelsFarley(sp) that they seem to be arguing with somewhere on these boards!

	01-02-2002 00:52									#153
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What I don't like in Firaxis PR.

After a first patch guys from Firaxis posted several threads about bugs and unit balance.

That's OK.

So they are going to do some unit rebalancing.

But why not have discusson with Firaxis team about these issuses?
Like this:

A guy from Firaxis:
-What do you think about giving tanks defense of 10?
-What do you think about giving cavalry movemnt of 2?
-Do you have some suggestion about musketeer modification?
-No, that won't work in Civ3, since AI won't use it properly because...



What bothers me is that this way, we need to wait 2 moths to get patch, and then there will still be lot of unbalances. So we'll need to wait another 2 month to resolve new unbalances, etc...
That's to much time for solving unbalances. They'll need a whole year just to solve that with this speed.

Now, main use of pathes in gaming industry is BUG SOLVING, not balance fixes.

But,
good games use pathes for fixing unbalances (for. ex. look Stracraft).


SO I PROPOSE:
Let's Firaxis make one nice bic file called balance_fix_beta1.bic, and distibute it here on Apolyton.
Then some players will play with that "upgrade", even seperate tournament could be made that way.
Then people should comment new balance issuses on appropriate thread.
Then using plyers FEEDBACK, Firaxis could make balance_fix_beta2.bic and etc...
Until, new patch become released with last balance_fix_betaX.bic as default rules.


Isn't that much faster and more productive. (its like some sort of public beta testing)

New units stats (and other) won't make new bugs, so this won't delay new patches.

But it will give Civ3 more gamebalance FASTER.

More gamebalance more gameplay.
More gameplay more fans.
More fans more MONEY.

	01-02-2002 01:48									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Anything they may be working on that their publisher is paying them for can have an NDA attached. If a Firaxian came here and gave out information that was not approved for release they could cost the company a lot of money and lose their job. After the mistakes made earlier with promising multiplayer it may well be the NDA got tightened this time. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Its exactly the same policy many other developers have to work under. You make it sound like Firaxis is abnormal for keeping tight lipped. On the contrary, they were uncharacteristically forthcoming in the past and got burned for it.

Sorry - don't buy it. Corporate barriers, hardline contracts, marketing ploys - I don't care what they call it! The consumer pays their wages, the consumer has the right to know the future of this product. We've kept them in business for over 10 years by supporting them with money and ideas, not to mention the thousands of fan locations and the growing community. They may have reasons for "not saying anything" but until they explain why they can't talk, we are left to draw our own conclusions, and thats my conclusion.

Charles.

	01-02-2002 01:55									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Anything they may be working on that their publisher is paying them for can have an NDA attached. If a Firaxian came here and gave out information that was not approved for release they could cost the company a lot of money and lose their job. After the mistakes made earlier with promising multiplayer it may well be the NDA got tightened this time. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Its exactly the same policy many other developers have to work under. You make it sound like Firaxis is abnormal for keeping tight lipped. On the contrary, they were uncharacteristically forthcoming in the past and got burned for it.

Go back and read your comment again. Nowhere do you admit the consumer has the right to have any interest in the matter.

NDA's are a good, useful, indeed neccessary business tool. But they have to exist in the real world, a world where customer attitudes matter.

Look, it's not a big thing. But I paid my $50, I am intrigued but not satisfied. Many others share this view either in part or in whole - the game was rushed I think we are agreed. I am a real person with a life and I want to know, three months after purchase, whether this is all there is to be (fine, I'll move on) or whether fixes are in order (I'll stick around). Fair is fair, just quit the patch tease. Sheesh, I'm not even asking for a release date. The whole company seems scared to death by what they can't do, instead of promoting what they can.

And I agree, threads about projected maybe patches are a complete waste of time....

	01-02-2002 01:55									#156
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Every game I've ever beta-tested had and NDA attached. We were even warned that no matter how bad the forums ever got we were not to say anything. It doesn't matter if you "buy it", Charles, it is the truth.

quote: The consumer pays their wages,

Are you for real! I bet when a cop stops you for speeding you yell at him that your taxes pay his salary, so he better go get you a cup of coffee.

	01-02-2002 01:56									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Bilas Archaetus I agree with everything you said! You are just keeping it real! But I think your comments will fall on deaf ears with Firaxis and as for Mark he will just give you some B-S. I always say a little good PR from Firaxis would do wonders and again please don't tell me they are so busy. They have enough time to com on these boards and Slap people around especially when it comes to Money! Just ask that guy named CharelsFarley(sp) that they seem to be arguing with somewhere on these boards!

Yeah I was ignored until I mentioned money and profits, Dan couldn't resist throwing in his two cents.

Charles.

	01-02-2002 01:58									#158
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quote: Originally posted by player1 But why not have discusson with Firaxis team about these issuses?

Because we've tried that, that's why everyone's flipping out (including me), Firaxis doesn't listen, and will not break policy to save a little face and keep their already damaged reputation from falling to pieces. I mean get real, it's only a game, not some government file - tell us what we need to know and stop being ridiculous with all this silence crap.

Charles.

	01-02-2002 02:10									#159
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesUFarley Because we've tried that, that's why everyone's flipping out (including me), Firaxis doesn't listen, and will not break policy to save a little face and keep their already damaged reputation from falling to pieces. I mean get real, it's only a game, not some government file - tell us what we need to know and stop being ridiculous with all this silence crap. Charles.

So why don't try it agian?
I haven't seen anybody asking about such discussion.
Nor Firaxis responding about such suggestion.


Anyway,
trolling doesn't help, it just drives them away.



Also,
having balancer.BICs between patches could make things more interesting.

	01-02-2002 02:13									#160
	Put an end to popups!

...
or maybe these forums are just to crowded for such thing (to much noise)

Maybe someting as Civ3-Firaxis mailing list?

	01-02-2002 02:13									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Argos65987 Every game I've ever beta-tested had and NDA attached. We were even warned that no matter how bad the forums ever got we were not to say anything. It doesn't matter if you "buy it", Charles, it is the truth.

"It doesn't matter if you buy it" -- did you all see that? You're damn rights it matters if I "buy it" -- I'm not going to roll over and let some game company or any other company trample me with policy and chicken sh_t marketing ploys just because they don't wanna use resources to fix their mistakes. In reality the company is 100% responsible for customer satisfaction. Ofcoarse there is the occasional tyrant out there who doesn't care about the customer, but those types of business' usually have trillions of dollars and lawyers in their pocket. I doubt very much that a small game company can get away with it. But we'll see -- let the games begin.

quote: Are you for real! I bet when a cop stops you for speeding you yell at him that your taxes pay his salary, so he better go get you a cup of coffee.

No, I usually accept the consequences of my actions. However there was this one time when a cop arrested me for a crime I didn't commit, and with overwhelming evidence and a good lawyer, I took him to court and won. The moral is: just because you think Firaxis has the right to hide behind policy, and ignore it's consumers -- doesn't mean they'll get away with it. And when the truth comes out, you're whole gripe to me will be a big pointless naive remark.

Charles.

	01-02-2002 02:19									#162
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quote: Originally posted by player1 ... or maybe these forums are just to crowded for such thing (to much noise) Maybe someting as Civ3-Firaxis mailing list?

That's what I'm trying to explain to you, we've tried everything in the book to get through to them. They responded either vaguely or with sarcasm, it's no use. Believe me, if you thought of a way to communicate with them, we've already tried it.

Charles.

	01-02-2002 02:19									#163
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It's not a gripe. NDA's exist. They are a fact, whether you think it's fair or not, like it or not. It just is. And by the statement that it doesn't matter whether you "buy it" does not refer to a monetary transaction, it refers to whether you accept a fact, that being that NDAs exist, and some people believe that when they sign a paper saying the will do something or refarin from doing something, they follow through with their promise.

The cop thing was a joke, lighten up Mr. Farley

	01-02-2002 02:20									#164
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"Furthermore I think all threads with the subject 'where is the patch?' should be closed until Firaxis anounces something. Just my opinion, otherwise continue pointless bickering."

I disagree. Many people are simply coming only to check if there has been news of a patch. If I check back in a couple weeks, I may have missed some relevant information. I am happy there are always "where's the patch" threads. If there are none I will start one myself.

	01-02-2002 02:20									#165
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Pssst....Yin and others, from an 'old' game called Kingdoms to Civ + CivII,I've always loved the tbs game best. I and a few Civ mad friends have just had our best 'civ' type game yet! its kinda off topic but as there seems to be alot of apathy around with Civ3 i just wanted to share this small crumb of 'civ' comfort. It was a LAN multiplayer game of CTP2
No really! I got the courage together to try one of the Mods(Med mod) and many hours later the verdict was complete-decent diplomacy and combat had been enjoyed - those Mod guys are hero's and even if i never buy another Activision game again, at least they left the modders with an option, and me and my mates with a game we can play untill Civ4 is released

	01-02-2002 02:38									#166
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Argos65987 It's not a gripe. NDA's exist. They are a fact, whether you think it's fair or not, like it or not. It just is. And by the statement that it doesn't matter whether you "buy it" does not refer to a monetary transaction, it refers to whether you accept a fact, that being that NDAs exist, and some people believe that when they sign a paper saying the will do something or refarin from doing something, they follow through with their promise.

As I said before, and I hope this is the last time -- NDA's and justifiable silence within game development contracts has nothing to do with PR or customer satisfaction, the customer has a sh_t load of rights when it comes to a product they've already purchased, and I'm more than certain that we're acting within those rights. Btw, who are you and why do we care?

quote: The cop thing was a joke, lighten up Mr. Farley

I'm affraid it's a true story, why don't you grow up.

Charles.

	01-02-2002 02:47									#167
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesUFarley ...Btw, who are you and why do we care? I'm affraid it's a true story, why don't you grow up. Charles.

Very mature. My saying about telling the cop to get you coffee was a joke. If you don't get the joke, oh well. Whether your story about you and the cop are true or not, I don't care. Why don't you hire your high priced lawyers to force Firaxis to answer you?

	01-02-2002 03:20									#168
	Keep the objective in mind - what furthers it? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by CharlesUFarley Yeah I was ignored until I mentioned money and profits, Dan couldn't resist throwing in his two cents. Charles.

Hmmm, my guess is that they were less worried about what YOU were thinking, and more worried that silence would be considered confirmation by some of the younger or more easily confused board participants.

Your posts are well-crafted and thoughtful; therefore potentially influential. You come from a different set of starting assumptions than I do though - no news flash there.

Companies never "owe" their customer anything but what is promised in sales materials or in contracts. If they choose not to please all their customers, that is their choice and their risk. If they choose to make a product at one level of "quality" versus another, that is their choice and their risk.

We as customers can want more attention, or a better product, but we have no right to either. We only have a right to what they promised us to get our money, and that is based on what they actually SAID, not based on what we hoped they meant.

I applaud all calls on Firaxis to release a new patch containing valuable updates. IMHO, unceasing complaining and attacks are not going to further that goal. I think that constructive suggestions, statements of relative priority, or attempts at developing a consensus of customer input on a particular topic would be much better. I fear that intense complaining will quite possibly induce a smaller rushed patch, reducing the chance that game-enhancing additions will be included. No company can afford an endless stream of free enhancements, so the more that are included in this next patch the better. I'd rather wait a little longer for great patch, then see a lesser patch more quickly. The next patch may be the last patch afterall. Just my two scents. ("Eeeeew", and "light a match" )

	01-02-2002 04:02									#169
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Actually, I just thought Charles' comment was really funny.

Dan

	01-02-2002 04:17									#170
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quote: Originally posted by player1 SO I PROPOSE: Let's Firaxis make one nice bic file called balance_fix_beta1.bic, and distibute it here on Apolyton. Then some players will play with that "upgrade", even seperate tournament could be made that way. Then people should comment new balance issuses on appropriate thread. Then using plyers FEEDBACK, Firaxis could make balance_fix_beta2.bic and etc... Until, new patch become released with last balance_fix_betaX.bic as default rules. Isn't that much faster and more productive. (its like some sort of public beta testing)

eeer there are already user-made and user-tested mods that change the rules(units stats, goverments, etc). everyone can download them and use them if he doesnt like the current settings.

this system as fast and productive as it can get. involving firaxis into would probably make things slowers...

	01-02-2002 04:23									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Archaetus Mark: Give us somewhere to find the answers.

when there is something important, it's posted in the news

quote: Firaxis: Answer the questions you can and nothing else. Giving us the run around by providing hints to answers to questions that can't be answered causes nothing but grief.

i thought that's what they were trying to do?

	01-02-2002 04:28									#172
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG eeer there are already user-made and user-tested mods that change the rules(units stats, goverments, etc). everyone can download them and use them if he doesnt like the current settings. this system as fast and productive as it can get. involving firaxis into would probably make things slowers...

But, I am talking about Firaxis-made MODs, wich should be some sort of beta-tesing rules. (final version in patch)

Slow, but quicker then getting new patches. (and we could have something to talk about instead of trolling)
In fact I think it can speed up patches (from game-balance point)


And nobody would play tournament by using Civ3-files MODs.

It's not how much someone like or not some setting, it's about STANDARDISATION.
So you can discuss about Civ, and know that people are playeing same game (not some modif.)

	01-02-2002 04:33									#173
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Anyway it's Firaxis statement that game needs rebalancing.
Unit stats thread in Strategy forum.

So I think that such system I described would make time needed to balance things out quicker.

That way we won't be just passsive player, then active by making suggestion.

Anyway, there isn't anymore much to say in that thead in startegy forums, so we need some sort of update to discuss about.

	01-02-2002 04:35									#174
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quote: Originally posted by player1 That way we won't be just passsive player, then active by making suggestion.

What's even better, since all these thing would be doable in editor there won't be impossibile or strange suggestions.

Only pure balance issues.

	01-02-2002 04:44									#175
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by kimmygibler Mouse - "If FIRAXIS said that something was to be included in the patch and the patch didn't have that change after all when it was released, you can bet your last kidney that the Apolyton forum would have a dozen threads complaining about the omissions inside a day." This argument is idiotic. Why would they care about complaint threads?

I didn't say they would care about complaint threads, merely that they would proliferate quickly if something promised was omitted.

Human kidneys are worth thousands on the black market and you can make easy money if you can find someone gullible enough to take up your bet (j/k)

	01-02-2002 04:58									#176
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by child of Thor Pssst....Yin and others, from an 'old' game called Kingdoms to Civ + CivII,I've always loved the tbs game best. I and a few Civ mad friends have just had our best 'civ' type game yet! its kinda off topic but as there seems to be alot of apathy around with Civ3 i just wanted to share this small crumb of 'civ' comfort. It was a LAN multiplayer game of CTP2 No really! I got the courage together to try one of the Mods(Med mod) and many hours later the verdict was complete-decent diplomacy and combat had been enjoyed - those Mod guys are hero's and even if i never buy another Activision game again, at least they left the modders with an option, and me and my mates with a game we can play untill Civ4 is released

Lucutis, myself, and others have been singing praises for the moded version of CTP2 but no one seems to be all that interested in listening. It is a pitty because they're missing out on a great game that has several features Civ3 should have included (like MP, unit stacking, and a well thought out combat system).

	01-02-2002 05:08									#177
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Agreed, CTP2 even in it's abandoned state is overall more enjoyable than Civ3...

Venger

	01-02-2002 06:44									#178
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Even in its abandoned state? I don't know, I think the ai was too brutally idiotic. However with mods, I agree that it is better than civ3 is right now. (which is why I have re-installed it)

	01-02-2002 06:54									#179
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quote: Originally posted by FrantzX Other game companies don't give notice of what's in a patch until the patch is released or just before. Why should Firaxis be any different?

Apparently, no one has an answer.

	01-02-2002 07:15									#180
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Thor: Thanks for the heads up. Glad you enjoyed CTP2.