23-01-2002 15:04									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Criticising Civ for not having a WWII scenario is like criticising a dog for not being a cat.

But the Cat is much better...like a Civ3 with a WWII scenario!

	23-01-2002 15:43									#62
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Criticising Civ for not having a WWII scenario is like criticising a dog for not being a cat.

That's right. Civ is a game about history. That whole WWII thing never happened.

[...adjusts tin foil in left ear...]

	23-01-2002 19:02									#63
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quote: That's right. Civ is a game about history. That whole WWII thing never happened.

Strawman argument.

...

(No Libertarian, I'm not going to explain why it's a strawman argument ... since you never explain why you believe other people's arguments are invalid anyway, and since you'd only reply with your usual form of argument by repeated assertion, I don't see the point in wasting my breath. Go ahead and offer up your sychophantic witty retort to score points with the penut gallery of yin26 and co though, don't stop on my behalf ).

	24-01-2002 03:16									#64
	Remove this text

Whats the use in arguing? Most of you people are blind to reason anyways. Positive threads are ruined by people coming in and trying to look "intelligent" by having a smartass remark for everything and insulting a perfectly good game.

They need the thread option for the creator to close down their own thread. If they have this option where is it?

	24-01-2002 06:57									#65
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Oh my. Venom and hate? Whence does the venom and hate originate? Maybe with the people who hate the game and post incessantly to that effect. And those who belittle others who like the game. Where does it start DaShi?

Actually it started with those who liked the game, but hated those who didn't. The first complaints were rather tame and fair, but were met with extreme resistance. Now they can't take what they dish out. Frankly, some people take this game too seriously. Hell, I was attacked for making a few jokes about the game. Now I'm in some stupid debate with children.

quote: Yin taken more heat? I think he has dished it out in full measure to what he has received in return. Just my opinion, not a mathematical study. I don't think anybody ever flamed him for what he attempted to contribute to civ3 during it's development.

Again, Yin's only arguments were about the game and Firaxis. He made very clear what he saw was the problem and avoided childish insults. However, those who like the game only retorted with flames and "troll" remarks. I don't blame him for getting a little fed up with it. I guess these people can't defend the game they love, so they have to insult the people to who criticize it.

quote: Frightening Fanaticism? Isn't the negative aspect of fanaticism the part where that with which you do not agree becomes the enemy? Maybe like the game, or the people who like the game. I personally do not see a problem with behaviour bordering on the fanatical if it is directed in a positive, constructive direction. Was Mother Theresa a menace? The problem is when it is negative and destructive. Just my opinion.

I'm only complaining about the negative fanaticism. See above.

quote: On the subject of destructive fanaticism, the people who like the game are capable of it too. When they (we) flame in response to criticism we descend to the negative. Then the critics flame, then the fans flame, and then the ... What's the point?

Exactly my point. If someone criticizes a game you like, point out its good points or walk away and play the game you like. Not everyone is going to like it, and you should respect that opinion.

quote: I found that once some of the critics and some of the fans (myself included) dropped the hatchet(s), I started to have more fun on these boards. I gained more insights. And I've actually been able to engage in some constructive conversations, even with *gasp* Yin. Did you know that Lib can be quite funny? No, you wouldn't if all you want to do is hate him.

I've had no problems with Lib. He's been on both sides and understands the problem. Hell, I've even listened to you!

quote: The bottom line is that when the people who do not like the game go negative, they invite more negative. When the people who like the game go negative, we invite MUCH more negative. Such is the nature of fanaticism, on both sides.

So it is wrong to not like the game. Or maybe we should just say, "Isn't it great how terrible it is not be able to move stacked units . The actual difference comes when people start attacking other people. You can attack any game you want for all I care. I like Deus Ex. You can call it a piece of garbage, but I won't attack you for that.

quote: I do have to admit though, that I would have preferred if all the hatchets could have been buried, IN YINs BACK. Just kidding, sortta. Salve

I just like to have a little fun. I'm disappointed with CivIII. I was looking forward to the game. I was hoping that Firaxis would learn from their mistakes in SMAC in PR and QA. I like to make a few jibes about the game and Firaxis. You like to make a few jibes at Yin. All in good friendly fun. But I make sure to never cross a line. And I never attack a fellow poster unless provoked. Unfortunately, a lot of the children here need to chill and get over themselves.

	24-01-2002 16:03									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

A bit of history...

I think some of the people might not understand that, at one time, I was a staunch Firaxis defender. That changed when, to my great embarrassment, I opened a thread for the sole purpose of proving to the whiners that Firaxis will respond to people who have shown them respect. (That would have been me, for instance.) I quickly became a laughingstock as Firaxis left me hanging to dry. I could say "just be patient" to Yin only so many times. To his credit, Yin was kind and gave me every out to save face.

Once I had converted, and expressed my outrage at the treatment I had received, a Firaxian finally responded. He blamed me. That's right. Me. I hadn't turned on my private messaging or displayed my e-mail. Double whammy.

Since that time, I've offered olive branches that the fanboys have stomped on like swine stomping pearls. They've never wanted to see any reconciliation between former fans and Firaxis. After all, they would lose their perceived high ground. They're like Pharisees, jealous of the successes of others.

I cannot imagine what Firaxis might do now to earn my respect. Certainly, an apology would be a start. But I've lost my naive expectation of anything other than the status quo, i.e., being summarily ignored.

	24-01-2002 17:38									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian I think some of the people might not understand that, at one time, I was a staunch Firaxis defender. That changed when, to my great embarrassment, I opened a thread for the sole purpose of proving to the whiners that Firaxis will respond to people who have shown them respect.

hmmm how many times must one clarify to you that this forum is not the official firaxis civ3 support forum? this is a fan forum, replies by developers is not something to be expected

firaxians who come here, do so in order to read players' feedback, not to replace infogrames' support line...

	24-01-2002 18:49									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian I quickly became a laughingstock as Firaxis left me hanging to dry. He blamed me. That's right. Me. I hadn't turned on my private messaging or displayed my e-mail. Double whammy. I cannot imagine what Firaxis might do now to earn my respect. Certainly, an apology would be a start.

You are referring to this thread?

This seems to have become an ego thing for you, Lib. Is there any real point in stalking Dan and making snide remarks when he posts? Do you really think Firaxis maintains a big chart keeping track of Apolyton supporters and enemies? Get over yourself, man! Saying good things in a few threads about the game doesn't mean that Firaxis will come galloping to your support when you ask them to. They have other things to do.

The idea that Firaxis somehow owes you an apology is mind-boggling.

	24-01-2002 18:58									#69
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No, oh enlightened one. Not that thread. My name is not ShaggyRA.

	24-01-2002 19:19									#70
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Lib, there is something that puzzles me... You were a Firaxis' supporter until all that "no response" incident; I suppose you liked Civ3 then. Did you?

There seems to be four types of players around here... 1) Those who dislike Civ3 completely, starting when they played their first game; 2) Those that liked the game for the first three weeks and then "realized how bad it is"; 3) Those who like the game as it is now, but still think that Civ3 could be much improved; and 4) Those who love the game as it is, period.

I would say that I am roughly included in number 3 above, but what about you, Lib? Unless you think that these generalizations tend to be "restrictive" (which they are, BTW) and prefer to create your own category...

	24-01-2002 19:42									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Alexnm:

First, I'd like to thank you for your civility, and your restraint from casting me as a one-dimensional caricature. I'm not sure I can pigeonhole myself into one of your categories, but I'm most likely somewhere between (or within) 2 and 3.

Someone got it closest to right when he conjectured that I am like a lover scorned. Some say that I overestimate my own importance, and that, because I am a customer, I believe I deserve special treatment. Others say that I underestimate my own importance, and that, because I am given to blunt expository, I am causing Firaxis to stay away. But I'm neither one. I'm just a customer who is disappointed that he has been disrespected despite that he has good ideas to offer.

I have one single categorical complaint about Civ3 — the interface, i.e., the mechanics by which the player is connected to the game. That covers such things as group movement, civilopedia availability, unit activation sequencing, and so on. The careful reader will observe that I have never criticized the AI or the combat algorithms. In fact, even now I continue to praise Soren for his remarkable work.

I can live with knowing that my ideas are either liked or disliked. I have a hard time living with the notion that my ideas do not even merit acknowledgment.

	25-01-2002 01:34									#72
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Crybaby.

	25-01-2002 01:55									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Libertarian No, oh enlightened one. Not that thread. My name is not ShaggyRA.

That's right a$$wipe!

	25-01-2002 02:47									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Shaggy, please try to get your mind off my ass.

	25-01-2002 03:34									#76
	Re: Civ3 is the best game I have ever owned! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by TheHobbit I know I forgot a lot of the positive sides of the game so please post and list what you LIKE about the game.

(hope the quote thingy works, i'm not used to it..)

I really like the diplomacy options/trade deals and stuff in this version of Civ, the tech options are pretty cool too, and seeing a coal resource up for grabs in no-mans-land and tring to get to it first and then keeping it is great fun too...just a few of my favourite things at the moment.

	25-01-2002 06:20									#77
	Full PM-box? Change here!

****gyRA, Libertarian, take your issues outside
to help you out, your posting ability has been removed for a week
see you in february