22-01-2002 23:52									#1
	No project MP game? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The "favorite project" thread in the General forum has got me thinking... Would anyone be interested in an MP game where secret projects are disabled? With the (possible?) exception of the Voice/Ascent. I think it would be pretty cool, and would take the emphasis of the game away from which projects you build. Instead, you'd really have to concentrate on the more basic aspects of the game - units, facilities, SE, diplomacy. You wouldn't have to worry about the EG, the HSA, or the CBA being over-powered, etc.
Maybe no random events, and no pod scattering. Or maybe use both. Maybe 4 or 5 players on a large random map. Anybody interested? Got any other ideas? Let me know what you think. Maybe we could get someone to set up and moderate the game... (hint, hint)

	23-01-2002 00:11									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Heah vitaminj,
Sure, sounds interesting! I'll be the Gaians, if you want me.

D

	23-01-2002 00:11									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

This sounds like fun. Count me in.

I can probably track down a CMN to set up the game for us, too.

	23-01-2002 05:00									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Cool y'all. What do you think about pods and random events? I'd like to reach a consensus for game settings, etc. I'd like to try an MP game with random events and without pods for once, but if you object, tell me. Also, does 5 players (assuming we can get them) on a large random map sound ok? You know how random maps and starts can be, but I think it's a cool part of the game. Maybe 30-50% ocean, average cloud/erosion/fungus?
I think we can use the honor system for SPs, just don't build any. But what about victory conditions?
So tell me what you want, and we can iron it out. The only thing is, I've never set up an MP game myself before. And I'd rather have someone who's not in the game do it... Qantaga, if you could find us a cmn that would be cool.
Anyone else wants to play, or be cmn, let us know!

And Qantaga what faction would you want?

	23-01-2002 05:04									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would be interested in joining but I would like to try CMN for the first time and if you have the patience whilst I set something up then that would be my preference. Let me know!

	23-01-2002 05:11									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Random events are no big deal to me one way or another, however I really would like to have pods in the game, especially if there are no SP's. Otherwise, whatever everyone else wants is fine with me.

D

	23-01-2002 09:14									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I have no major preferences for the game. I will be happy with anything you guys want. I really like the idea of building no SPs. And, as vitamin j says, it will be rather easy to patrol since all you need is a quick peek in the F5 screen.

I personally like the idea of no pods, too (mainly because every other MP I play has pods and this would be something new), but since Darsnan seems to want them pretty strongly, I would have no problem with having them.

Random Events are fine with me and we should be able to use all victory conditions, if only the Voice and Ascent are allowed to be built. Also, we need to decide if we want to allow a co-op victory or not. It might be more fun without it, but I can live with it either way.

I will vote whole-heartedly for SITS as CMN. I know SITS to be a very good player and a most reliable gentlemen. I'm sure he will do a great job setting the game up for us and serving as CMN. I think it will be worth it for us to give him a little time to set us up fairly. It really can be a huge disappointment if you find that the random map has placed your HQ just eight tiles away from another HQ (as happened to me in another random game not too long ago).

Five players should be fine as long as we all agree to commit to at least one turn a day (with the occasional real-life intrusions, of course).

As for my faction, I will be happy to wait until all other players have chosen before deciding.

	23-01-2002 10:48									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

SITS:
Thanks for offering, and we accept! It may just be a three player game, unless we get a couple more hits. That would be fine with me, but I think one or two more would be cool. We've got time - take as long as you like. I agree with Qantaga that random starts is probably not the best idea. But in a four or five player game with cooperative victory enabled, it could be as much an advantage as not...

Well, damn, Darsnan. I guess I know now why you like the Gaians - they (and the Cult) are the rulers of the Quest for the Holy Grail! (aka the alien artifact ) Could I get you to let it slide this time? Every MP game I'm in has pods on, and I'd really like the change of pace. No AAs (each potentially worth hundreds or thousands of research points), no battle ogres, no earthquakes, no fungal towers right next to your starting location. I don't see how no SPs makes pods more or less important...

Random events will be on, at any rate. I look forward to suffering an asteroid strike, since I'll be so far ahead of everyone on the charts...

If we end up with three players total, we should definitely not have co-op victory on.

More later...

	23-01-2002 12:05									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

SITS:

It's possible when seting up the game to disable all the SPs bar the Voice and the Ascent. e-mail me if you want a walk-thru on how to:

linfrew@aol.com

If there are to be AI you might ewant to let them build SPs - soem of them will derive a decent benefit from them - but prolly not overpoweringly so - and just use the Honor system for the human players not to.

G.

	23-01-2002 15:31									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Thanks everyone for your kind words. I've emailed Googlie for advice about setting it up. If you can decide on the format of the game then I can get started. It might be an idea to go out and actively recruit people from the games you are currently in. Let me know.

	23-01-2002 16:51									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by vitamin j SITS: Well, damn, Darsnan. I guess I know now why you like the Gaians - they (and the Cult) are the rulers of the Quest for the Holy Grail! (aka the alien artifact ) Could I get you to let it slide this time?

The Political element of the Gaian High Council would like to state that inquiries as to our reasons for wanting pods will not be answered: you can draw your own conclusions, and we will let you do that.
However, for the sake of this game: if the majority of players for each game do not want pods, then, because the Gaian High Council has a deep affinity for the democratic process, then we will abide by the majority's vote. Our vote in this remains the same: we would like pods.


D

	23-01-2002 19:21									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

As it stands, there's one vote for pods and one against... I really don't want to pull a "pods 'cause I say so" thing, but I really don't want to start another game with them, either. If we don't get any more players, or we do and they vote for pods, I'll withdraw from this one. I'm sorry, guys, but my idea was for something of a change from the "standard" MP set up.

I'll post in the game threads I'm in and see if I can get anyone else for this one...

	23-01-2002 19:25									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

There seems to be two votes for no pods and one vote for. VJ and Q voting against...

	23-01-2002 19:42									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If this is the only impasse to starting the game, then I withdraw my objection: no pods it is.
Just take it easy on us poor defenseless Gaians, OK?

D

	23-01-2002 19:44									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you want one more player, I'm interested. I prefer Uni, Morgan or PK

	23-01-2002 20:58									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Thank you, Darsnan. I don't think the Gaians need any slack from anyone... I know they're my favorite.

Paul: Cool. Glad to have you. I think you've got whichever faction you want... (Look out, y'all...)

Do you think we should just go with 4 players? I thought one more might liven-up the diplomacy a little, but if someone doesn't show up soon, I guess we'll just go with it.

How does everyone feel about AI? I think Googlie's suggestion about letting "them" build projects is interesting. I also think it would be a roundabout way of letting the human players have projects - by capturing them. If it's all the same to you, I'd like to leave the AI out of this one. 4 or 5 humans is plenty for a large map.

I still can't decide which faction I want. Somebody else decide and cut down on the choices...

	23-01-2002 21:03									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If you allow a point from a foreign nitpicker...

I didn't know that the option to disable SPs in scenario building would allow the Transcendence Projects - that's just sensible after all, to let you mix that option with Transcendence Victory enabled.

I'd like to point you out a detail if you choose to rely on honor system tho (as per G's AI consideration).

You know that crawlers can be cashed at full mineral value only in prototypes and *projects*.
Otherwise they can be disbanded at half their value in any other item just like any other unit.
You know that when switching production, the first 10 minerals do not get halved...

Imagine that you have a base where you could not carry over minerals for economic reasons or whatever...
Imagine that you need to disband something in that base to help rushing something you just realised you gotta build now (that way you can get those damned first 10 minerals and pay the normal hurry prices)

assume 0 Industry for simplicity
- if you disband the crawler into the item to be produced, you'd get only 15 minerals from it
- if you begin to build a project, then cash the crawler in it, you get 30 minerals. When you switch to the desired item, you only halve the exceeding 20, fully retaining the first 10: that is, you get 20 minerals instead of 15 from your crawler. This could mean being able to rush in that turn the item you wanted, or not. And anyway, with any SE setting, you'd get 5 more minerals from your crawler with this trick (if you start without accumulated ones...)

This is of course a very minor issue, and I let you to decide wheterh you feel the need to address it in your own pbem custom rulings.

Of course, I hope you agree that this trick is all performed using perfectly legal game mechanisms, thus no sane player should dream to forbid it
My nitpick only originated from the fact that you chose to forbid the building of an item from your pbem, but that not-producible item could be used as "temporary buffer" for a convenient trick...
Notwithstanding that even in your case using that same trick with *prototypes* has to be perfectly legal (problem is, it's RARE to have unprototyped designs available...).

I leave you in the hands of the expert Googlie, and enjoy your pbem (btw, it's gonna be C or X?)

___
PS:
the SP problem could be anyway addressed even if you allow the AIs:
just rule that if you "happen" to conquer an AI base containing a Project, you are FORCED to immediately obliterate it, suffering all the sanctions consequences and the like! That powerful deterrent could make the AIs a bit tougher to bite - poisonous morsels...

Last edited by MariOne on 23-01-2002 at 21:14

	23-01-2002 23:12									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

MariOne as usual, dropping insane amounts of SMAC wisdom on us all...

I wasn't aware of the mineral trick you described. It's just another unfortunate example of the many screwy things in this game. Since it can't be effectively policed, and is available to all, we really have no choice but to just live with it. And there is still the consideration that you did spend 30 mins to get that crawler.

I really like your idea concerning AI SPs! I'm still generally opposed to having AI in this game - they are usually nothing more than a nice bonus for the human that finds them first...

	23-01-2002 23:29									#19
	Count me in... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

i hope i'm not too late to join in on this game...it sounds very interesting.

please let me know.

cheers,

brian

IM me at psybermagus2323@hotmail.com or email to psybermagus@earthlink.net

	24-01-2002 00:15									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

All right, 5 players it is. We have:

Darsnan
Qantaga
Paul
Psybermagus
and myself, vitamin j

So far, only Darsnan has chosen a faction, the Gaians.
Paul would like Uni, Morgan, or PKs.
I'm still thinking about it.
Let's leave out the aliens...
No AI factions.

I've assumed SMAX is ok for everyone. I would prefer it.

SITS will CMN.

The game will be on a large map, average everything. I mentioned 30-50% ocean coverage, but if anyone objects, speak up.

I guess we'll use the Apolyton tournament rules. Discuss?

No Secret Projects
Pods off
Random events on
victory conditions?

Anything else we haven't mentioned...

	24-01-2002 00:33									#21
	new game... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

this will be PBEM?

i prefer SMAX as well. i'd be happy playing Consciousness. Otherwise, I'll take Cha Dawn's tribe, or the Drones, in that order.

i like huge maps, and don't mind so much ocean... pods off is fine, too, and i would also prefer blind research, if possible.

i think that about covers it for me. i look forward to playing.

btw, i was wondering if we couldn't set up a three-day gaming marathon over the President's Day weekend. that's a great opportunity for TCP/IP gaming, if anyone else is up for it. let me know what you think about it...

-PSY

	24-01-2002 01:05									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes, this will be pbem...

The 30-50% ocean coverage means there'll be more land, not more ocean. And it's a large map, not huge. Figures the Cyborgs would be into blind research... Maybe not this time, ok Psyber?

My brief experience with TCP/IP games wasn't good. In fact, it sucked. I don't think I'll be doing that again...

I guess I'm going with the Data Angels, then.

	24-01-2002 01:41									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

TCP/IP will probably be a bad idea, because it would be impossible to find a time when we can all be online, especially with players from different timezones.

As for victory conditions, I'm assuming that transcendance is allowed. Should cooperative victory be allowed or just solo victory?

Other settings are all ok for me.

	24-01-2002 02:07									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I vote for co-op victory. With 5 players, I think it's reasonable.

	24-01-2002 02:36									#25
	victory types Suffering from ads?

co-op victory is good with me. you'll see my name on the ballot, and i hope i can count on your vote

i'm sorry to hear your TCP/IP experience was so horrible. i had quite a few bad experiences, myself, but also quite a few really awesome experiences, as well. when it works, it's great, but when it fails, it's miserable! live connections with ICQ really helped to keep us in the loop during disconnects and reboots and all the horrors imaginable when more than one computer start talking to each other! anyway, i'm open to the idea if anyone else fancies it at any point...

-Psy

	24-01-2002 02:39									#26
	one more thing... Get a bigger avatar today!

one more thing...

i won't be in until late tonight, so if you start passing turns around, try to throw me near the bottom of the list...

btw, what advantage over their opponents would the Cyborgs have to gain from blind research? is it akin to the Cult operating on a planet dense in native lifeforms?

	24-01-2002 03:08									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

IMO, because of the 'Borg (and Uni) research bonus, blind research has a disproportionately (sp?) smaller effect on those factions...

It may be a little while yet before we get the turns going. Hope you're in no hurry.

	24-01-2002 15:30									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

vitamin j is right, we will want to give SITS a few days to set up a nice scenario for us.

Paul, I am also under the assumption that Transcendence is allowed.

As for co-op, I usually like it turned off in a game like this. It requires that you be a little more cautious with your alliances. However, I am glad to go with the majority. It looks like vitamin j and Psybermagus are for it, so let's see what Darsnan and Paul think about it.

It looks like we have the following factions:

vitamin j - Data Angels
Darsnan - Gaians
Paul - University
Psybermagus - Cyborgs

Edit to change my originally posted faction choice. I have never played Morgan in an MP game, so I would like to try them in this game.

Last edited by Qantaga on 24-01-2002 at 18:27

	24-01-2002 19:26									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I don't know, I'm re-thinking the co-op victory thing. I have yet to get that far in an MP game. I was just thinking that without it, you know that eventually you must turn on your pact-mates...

	24-01-2002 19:48									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It seems to be coming along nicely! If you can all agree on the map then I can start working on it today whilst I wait for Googlie to tell me about setting up the game...