24-01-2002 20:06									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

As far as settings are concerned - whatever makes everyone happy is good for me. This is going to be a very challenging game for me, and it should give me some new insights and strategies that I can employ in the future!
However, a little help in the beginning wouldn't hurt, either: Heah SITS, if per chance I start out with a mindworm unit in this game, I'm sure you'll find yourself a few EC's richer....

D

	25-01-2002 04:50									#32
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SITS:

I think we've agreed on the map, but I could be wrong...

I suggested:

Large map
30-50% ocean coverage
average clouds/erosion/native life
transcend difficulty

As far as rules:

pods off
random events on
blind research off
unity survey off --- I would like to discuss the "on" option...
look first on
spoils of war, tech stag, etc. off

Anything else?

	25-01-2002 19:39									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

vitamin j, your map choices look good.

As I see it, we still have a few things to iron out before SITS can finalize the map for us:

1. Co-op victory? So far, it is 2-1 for with vitamin j perhaps rethinking his vote and Darsnan and Paul undecided.

2. Will it be just human players or will we have two AI factions to round out the game. I believe vitamin j stated that he would prefer no AI factions in this game. I can agree to that, but I guess we should give the others a chance to respond if they feel strongly about having AI in the game.

3. vitamin j's unity survey "on" request? I usually like to have the survey off, but it might be a new experience to have it on. Again, if anyone feels strongly against it, now's the time to speak up.

4. Shall we ask SITS to provide us with a couple of extra scouts and colony pods to get us off to a quicker start?

Also, SITS, if Googlie can walk you through turning off all SPs, except the Voice and the Ascent, that would be great. However, don't worry about it too much. We can always use the honor system to not build any projects if it is too much trouble. Since, we do want to allow a Transcendence victory, we will need to have the Voice and the Ascent active.

-------
Here are some things we can decide independent of SITS' map setup.

I am assuming we will abide by the Apolyton Tournament Rules for this game, but there are two issues worth discussing:

1. Stockpile Energy. This is a bug in the game, but if everyone is aware of it going in, it can be used to help manage the build queues and to provide a little extra cash for everyone in the game. I have no personal preference about this, as long as we agree yea or nay before we start.

2. Commlink communications. I feel pretty strongly that you should not be allowed to communicate with anyone unless you have obtained their commlink legitimately through in-game means, but I will go with the majority.

	25-01-2002 19:50									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just a few ideas...

If you are going to allow co-op victory (not sure I would) then have a rule that you can't have three or four factions joining together against one or two. It happened in a game I'm in with three against one and it was a tad unfair.

I was messing around with the editor and there was an option for a flat map and since there are a number of unique options in this game then you might want to consider this.

Hopefully Googlie and I will be getting together over the weekend so if you can sort out all the details tonight then we will be able to start quite soon. Cheers!

	25-01-2002 20:03									#35
	Full PM-box? Change here!

1. I agree with SITS on the co-op issue: I vote no - makes things more Machiavelian!

2. As far as AI is concerned: their cannon fodder (usually!) - don't care either way.

3. Survey off.

4. Extra Stuff: HE** Yes!!! (and remember what I said about a few EC's floating your, SITS....)

5. Stockpile energy "bug": don't care.

6. Commlink: I like pre-contact communication, if only to start establishing personalities in the game a little earlier than otherwise. Not a sticking point with me, otherwise.

7. Pods on.

Those are my votes. Also, I will be out of town until Sunday 5pm-ish est. FYI in case this much anticipated game gets underway before I get back (if so, maybe you want to put me last in turn rotation).

Cheers, and see you Sunday!

D

	25-01-2002 20:36									#36
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I don't think the order matters too much as it is only Paul that is in a different time zone so as long as we make sure he is first or last then it should turn well...

	25-01-2002 20:37									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

okay, here are my thoughts on game set-up:

1. co-op victory doesn't matter to me...I abstain on this one...as for factions ganging up on each other, i suppose that's the very spirit of this winning option...i don't think anyone here is into curtailing our game through this option simply out of pleasure...let's say those three factions who ganed up on the other two were all much less powerful and could see their demise coming at the hands of the other two factions...to paraphrase Santiago, survival is ultimately what is at stake. will we even use this victory option? whose to say... transcendance gets you more points, and in the end, all the toys are yours and you don't have to share with the other faction leaders...

2. No AI. Why bother? they're easy pickings for the faction closest to them, and their tech-sharing is so random and really isn't based on the actual politics involving live players...CLUELESS ROBOTS, so keep 'em out.

3. Unity Survey OFF...it doesn't matter, anyway...we're all generally familiar with the map of planet, and isn't pod scattering OFF too?

4. Yes yes yes extra units, pods, please...since i'm the borg, you should give me TWO pods, cause we're so frigid...but seriously, is there going to be a rule set down on who gets what units at start?

5. Secret Projects...don't go through all the work of finding out how to turn them off...we just won't build them (and that means not throwing them in production queue, either!) if we have no AI, that solves the problem of controling their production/conquering their bases with SPs... just don't build em, folks.

6. What is the deal with the Stockpile queue? Why is it impossible to add that to the queue? It seems to me you should be able to do so, since you can in single player mode. I'm not sure I understand the logic. Would someone elucidate. Thanks.

7. NO COMMUNICATION UNTIL WE BUMP UGLIES. Let's stick to the spirit of the game...being stranded and alone for a little bit (if we're lucky, anyway...)

8. The flat map thing...what's the advantage there? Does that mean no terrain differences? Elevation is flat? Or just the graphics? Since the graphics help in determining elevation without having to look at each square individually, why turn off the graphics? i'm not sure i see the advantage to it (aside from "merely doing something different for a change"....you're starting to sound like Zakharov, who will do something simply because he can, regardless of the ethical consequences...

FINALLY, one last question, not specific to this game, hopefully, but worth discussing...I came across www.networknode.org last night, and saw their custom factions. have any of you taken a look at these? would you ever want to play a game with them? also, i found instructions there on customizing factions myself. i experimented last night with Domai, giving him as many +8 social factors as possible...what a gas! anyway, are there ways to tell if someone playing an MP game has modified his faction illegally?

i'm sure there are myriad ways to cheat... hopefully no one will...

cheers,

Psy

	25-01-2002 20:41									#38
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Psybermagus 3. Unity Survey OFF...it doesn't matter, anyway...we're all generally familiar with the map of planet, and isn't pod scattering OFF too? Psy

I was wondering if anyone was going to catch this. Heah, you can't blame a Guy(an) for tryan, can ya?

	25-01-2002 20:52									#39
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Psybermagus okay, here are my thoughts on game set-up: 8. The flat map thing...what's the advantage there? Does that mean no terrain differences? Elevation is flat? Or just the graphics? Since the graphics help in determining elevation without having to look at each square individually, why turn off the graphics? i'm not sure i see the advantage to it (aside from "merely doing something different for a change"....you're starting to sound like Zakharov, who will do something simply because he can, regardless of the ethical consequences... Psy

My understanding of the Flat Map option (and I might be wrong) is that it doesn't wrap around which would be different.

I understood we were using a modified random map but I certainly don't mind using the Map of Planet.

The problem with extra units is balancing it up between factions. You need to decide what you all want.

	25-01-2002 21:10									#40
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1. Coop: don't care
2. No AI
3. Survey: don't care
4. Extra Stuff: don't care
5. Stockpile energy "bug": don't care.
6. Commlink: No contact before meeting the faction or building the EG or trading their commlink or election for governor

	25-01-2002 21:13									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

SITS, you are correct, we do want a large, random map. The exploration is half the fun.

As far as extra units, I don't think we want to unbalance anything. I was thinking that you could just give us all our faction's normal starting units, techs and credits, but then add two extra colony pods and two extra scout patrols for each of us. We don't want to fool around with anything more elaborate. That will just allow us to get a couple of extra bases up quickly.

	25-01-2002 21:20									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK, it looks like we have a consensus on our issues:

1. Co-op victory is off.
2. No AI factions.
3. Unity Survey off. (And yes, Pod Scattering is off, too).
4. Every faction gets their normal starting units, but SITS gives us each 2 extra Colony Pods and 2 extra Scout Patrols.
5. Stockpile Energy will be allowed in the build queue after units.
6. No communication will be allowed until you legitimately obtain the commlink in-game.

Thanks for agreeing to set this up, SITS. Take your time and let us know if you need anything else from us.

(vitamin j, sorry to post these before you even had a chance to respond to my previous list, but I think I have accurately reflected the consensus of the group).

Of course, this is just my interpretation of all of your posts, so please feel free to correct any of these if I have recorded your intentions incorrectly.

	25-01-2002 21:21									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'd rather not play a flat map: we're changing several large variables in this game already, and to be able to effectively implement any new strategies we learn from this game, we need to be able to discern the roots of that new knowledge. Too many variables renders new data useless because it cannot be verifiably traced to its specific root cause.


D

	25-01-2002 21:25									#44
	Tired of ads?

oh, random map is cool, too... i didn't realize we were going to go to that length, but if so, awesome. i'm sick of playing the same map all the time (knowing just where the Monsoon Jungle is before actually finding it isn't the kind of knowledge you want the Borg to have! yes, let's have a totally random map. SITS, you're not actually playing, though, right?

ah, Flat Map, as in "the world is flat, not a globe".... i get it now...that WOULD be interesting... and very advantageous for the factions that land on either side (don't have to watch their backs...) do you think that would be a little unfair advantage to those factions? i suppose it's worth a try... i'm game.

	25-01-2002 21:30									#45
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

No, I'm not playing.

I'm off to work soon so it would be nice to get in in the morning if there was a clear list of factions, options etc so I can make sure all is implimented.

	25-01-2002 21:34									#46
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Darsnan, since you started this thread, you can be the one to put all our options into one coherent list (and, this time, no sneaky business, Guy(an)!! )

er, that's my vote, anyway...unless you're already gone and won't be back until Sunday, in which case i rescind my vote...hee hee

also, based on the sound argument of my good colleague Darsnan regarding the number of new variables we should introduce to this game and the threat too many variables pose to the usefulness of the resultant data, I change my vote on the Flat Map issue to NO. perhaps another time... (i'll regret it, I know, cause you can bet my faction will be one to land on the edge of the map...)

	25-01-2002 21:49									#47
	Remove this text

Actually, the starting of the thread should be credited to vitamin j (and what a good idea this is!).

I have a few minutes, so I will put the list of options together. Again, please correct anything you believe I have recorded incorrectly:

Factions:

vitamin j - Data Angels
Darsnan - Gaians
Paul - University
Psybermagus - Cyborgs
Qantaga - Morgan

SITS you can set this up in any order. As you said, you will want to place Paul either first or last in the turn order, but it looks like the rest of us are in the eastern US.

Game Settings:

Large, Random Map
30-50% Ocean
Average Erosion, Life Forms, Cloud Cover
Transcend Difficulty
Cooperative Victory: Off
All other victory conditions: On
Look First: On
Tech Stag: Off
Spoils of War: Off
Blind Research: Off
Intense Rivalry: Off
No Unity Survey: On (Map not visible)
No Unity Scattering: On (pods only at landing sites)
Bell Curve: On (Random Events allowed)
Time Warp: Off
Iron Man: On
Randomize factions personalities and agendas: Off

Other Settings:
-No AI factions
-2 extra Colony Pods and Scout Patrols each (in addition to normal faction starting units, techs, credits)

Thanks again, SITS!

Last edited by Qantaga on 25-01-2002 at 22:58

	25-01-2002 22:52									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I Agree to Q's notes above (and thanx for organizing them, Q! .
As far as Psy's note above about being sneaky: its more like wily, as you will see on Planet (they don't call me "The Fungal Fox" for nothing! ).
I'm going off air shortly, so if there's any more details that need to be hashed out (you know, like "Pods On") then whatever is decided by the group is fine with me.
See you Sunday!

D

	26-01-2002 02:17									#49
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Wow, I missed a lot! Thanks Qantaga for putting it all together.

I think SITS should have everything he needs to set the game up.

We should use the Apolyton pbem rules, though I agree to allowing the stockpile energy thing. Everyone can use it, and more cash makes more action.

I just suggested Unity survey on because it's usually off. It is nice if you have some idea where to explore, and what your relative position is. Off is fine with me, and if anyone would complain to SITS about their starting location, they'll at least have to wait a while...

Just to be sure, we're NOT using a flat map. We ARE using a normal, wrapping map.

	28-01-2002 21:48									#50
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Googlie talked me through the process so I hope to have it done today and maybe another half a day testing it.

	28-01-2002 23:54									#51
	Inflate your Upload Space

SITS, that's good news. We are in no rush, so take your time and send it on out whenever you're comfortable with it. Thanks again for doing this for us.

I really need to get in there and play with the scenario editor myself, it just seems so overwhelming whenever I open it up.

	29-01-2002 00:10									#52
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Qantaga - NP, CMNing is something I've wanted to do for awhile. I've got the transcript of Googlie talking me through it, I'm sure he won't mind if I pass it on to you - I found it a great help.

In meanwhile could people post their email addresses here or send it to me privately to sits07@yahoo.co.uk if you don't want it to be public...

	29-01-2002 00:18									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

SITS, I would love a copy of Googlie's walkthrough (editing out anything to do with this particular setup, of course).

You already have my e-mail, but I'll send you a preferred password for this game.

	29-01-2002 00:53									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

My email is paulvdbelt@hetnet.nl. But I think you already had it from AXT033.

	29-01-2002 01:42									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Copy of script sent to Q

G.

	29-01-2002 02:37									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

vitaminj31@hotmail.com

Thanks again, SITS and Googlie.

If everyone in the game would post their email here, it would be easier for me. That way I can enter your addresses into my book at hotmail, so my inbox protector doesn't put them in my bulk mail. Also, if you normally use multiple addresses, I need them all...

I really miss my icrazy.com account! It was kinda bare-bones, but I got no spam there.

Last edited by vitamin j on 29-01-2002 at 02:47

	29-01-2002 03:13									#57
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Mine is: Qantaga@aol.com

	29-01-2002 03:19									#58
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

mine is dnandal@twcny.rr.com

	29-01-2002 03:26									#59
	Increase Your PM Length

Thanks, people.

Everyone should check out the Consensus on Cheating thread in General/Help/Strat. For this game I think we should use/abide by the list Googlie posted from the Forum Wars games. There are some notable differences from the standard Apolyton rules, but I like them better. I'm still unclear about the Council thing, though. Read 'em and tell me what you think.

	29-01-2002 07:21									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi all!

Game up and running now and first turn sent to vitamin j

The turn thread can be found here.

Enjoy!