23-01-2002 22:47									#1
	Comparing Civ III to Other Games Put an end to popups!

Hi all. I don't want to delineate problems with this game - I think they have been detailed by numerous people. There are so many great ideas, but the whole thing seems like it was released 6 months too early.

I must admit, I'm not a gamer... the only games I ever play are Civ related, first Civ, then Civ II, SMAC, and now Civ III. Thus, I'm thinking of expanding into similar games.

I wanted advice from players who play a lot of strategy. I understand this genre seems to have moved from turn-based to real-time. I am curious if players can compare and contrast Civ III to the following other games, so I can think about what to buy next:

Empire Earth
Europa Universalis III
Age of Kings

Advice on other turn-based would be swell too.

Thanks,

Aaron

	23-01-2002 23:30									#2
	Re: Comparing Civ III to Other Games Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by aschatz Hi all. I don't want to delineate problems with this game - I think they have been detailed by numerous people. There are so many great ideas, but the whole thing seems like it was released 6 months too early. I must admit, I'm not a gamer... the only games I ever play are Civ related, first Civ, then Civ II, SMAC, and now Civ III. Thus, I'm thinking of expanding into similar games. I wanted advice from players who play a lot of strategy. I understand this genre seems to have moved from turn-based to real-time. I am curious if players can compare and contrast Civ III to the following other games, so I can think about what to buy next: Empire Earth Europa Universalis III Age of Kings Advice on other turn-based would be swell too. Thanks, Aaron

You should add the Command & Conquer series, by Westwood, to that list. It's strictly battle based, no building of an empire, but there's a lot of strategy involved. There's also a large online community that you can play head to head with. Very good games IMO.

	24-01-2002 01:02									#3
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RUN, don't walk, to get EUII. Never played EE. The others are shallow.

check out: www.golemlabs.com

	24-01-2002 01:06									#4
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If you're into fantasy turn based strategy, Disciples II is looking to be really really good. The demo's out. 103MB download or something like that... Couldn't hurt to try. Unless you're doing 56k...

	24-01-2002 01:18									#5
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Let's try this again.

I am curious if players can compare and contrast these games. How are are they different from Civ III. What is better, what is worse.

Thanks.

Aaron

	24-01-2002 01:40									#6
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Pfft... You're turning a message board experience into actual work.

	24-01-2002 01:45									#7
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I can tell you about EUII. It's a good game, but you never know all the rules (and they are not published). So you will do a lot of "beta testing" with that one.

By comparison, the CivIII rules are well documented.

	24-01-2002 02:36									#8
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quote: Originally posted by aschatz Let's try this again. I am curious if players can compare and contrast these games. How are are they different from Civ III. What is better, what is worse. Thanks. Aaron

Why don't you search around to some of the game review sites, or the home site of the games you mentioned? That would probably give you a better idea as to whether you'd like the game than getting some subjective analysis. You could probably find some demos to try out as well. Then you'd know first hand.

	24-01-2002 02:40									#9
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Hmmm. I did do that... but the problem with game review sites is that they play the games a little bit and then write a review. The only review of Civ III that is at all reflective of the problems of the game is the Wargamer one. I bought the game after all those rave reviews only to discover none of them mentioned the game's problems, such as the nonexistant ability to mod and make scenarios, the fact that a number of items from Civ II are gone, the fact that the corruption prevents large empires, even though large empires are required for higher scores, etc. etc.

So I trust gamers more than review sites.

Aaron

	24-01-2002 02:56									#10
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A wise man you are, Aaron. Welcome to Apolyton.

	24-01-2002 02:57									#11
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quote: Originally posted by aschatz Hmmm. I did do that... but the problem with game review sites is that they play the games a little bit and then write a review. The only review of Civ III that is at all reflective of the problems of the game is the Wargamer one. I bought the game after all those rave reviews only to discover none of them mentioned the game's problems, such as the nonexistant ability to mod and make scenarios, the fact that a number of items from Civ II are gone, the fact that the corruption prevents large empires, even though large empires are required for higher scores, etc. etc. So I trust gamers more than review sites. Aaron

A good person to ask for comparisons would be Velociryx. A gather he's the resident strategy expert and really seems to know a good game when he plays one. He's probably the one who could give you the most informative analysis. I'm not sure whether he's played the games you've mentioned, though I suspect he has. He's a strategy game junkie by the sounds of it.

	24-01-2002 07:49									#12
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I like playing Rebellion by LucasArts. Not too many people like this game, but I do... a lot! If you get this game, i suggest you find the program RebEd on the internet, and with that you can edit that game moreso then Civ3's editor, and its free too! I think Rebellion was worth the $20.

	24-01-2002 08:19									#13
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Never played EU so I can't say.

Empire Earth and AoK are very close to the same thing so i'll combine those two together. The biggest difference between those games and Civ3 is they are "real time" and Civ3 is turn based. I found EE to be basically a game of constant battling with building and resource collect as only a complement to the war effort. There are no real negotiations with other empires. And advancing to the next era is a mostly a function of gathering resources. For the way I play (and for the time I have to play) I prefer the slow Civ turn based style of play. There are many more mouse clicks in RTS games and they need alot more constant attention. Star Wars Galactic Empires is just like Aok but set in the Star Wars universe.

Other games of this sort that I would recommend looking into is Star Wars Rebellion (already mentioned) and Star Trek: Birth of the Federation. ST:BOTF is a very underrated game. It does a great job with minor civs, simutaneous multiplayer moves, and strategic and tactical battles. The interface varies by which race you chose to play and each race has unique qualities and units. I highly recomend this game especially as you can pick it up cheap.

It all comes down to turn based or real time. I have found that most RTS games are similar and most turn based games are similar.

For my money any one of the Civ games is superior to any of the others I have tried, but your mileage may vary.

	24-01-2002 08:38									#14
	Re: Comparing Civ III to Other Games Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by aschatz There are so many great ideas, but the whole thing seems like it was released 6 months too early.

I much prefer playing the game now rather than waiting. In six months they can release an upgrade. I'll play that too.

	24-01-2002 08:53									#15
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I've played all the games you listed (well, EU1 instead of 2). I was at one point a rather competitive AoK player until I got too busy. I didn't play EE too much and for the same reason: Too busy.

First and foremost: Do you like real-time strategy? You are on a TBS forum, after all. I can say that the same thrill of founding stuff and exploring are common to both genres, but after that superior tactics and multi-tasking are the order of the RTS day. For my money, AoK is still the more easily accessible game.

In the TBS relm, Civ3 is essentially the same 10 year-old Civ with some new clothes. If that doesn't bother you, go ahead and play it. But if you want something (IMO) far more challenging and true to history, put your money down on EU2 without hesitation. Just be prepared to get past the learning curve. I hated EU1 until I gave a second and third try. And the game can sometimes feel more like a history lesson than a thrill ride.

Overall, Civ3 is just a simple game. Not much to tax your brain. A kind of expensive screen saver.

	24-01-2002 15:19									#16
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If you've played the Civ series, than I would also recommend the Age of Empires series as well. The games are top notch quality and there is a ton of campaigns and scenarios for them. There is just something special seeing Eygptian chariots rumbling across the desert.

	24-01-2002 15:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Overall, Civ3 is just a simple game. Not much to tax your brain. A kind of expensive screen saver.

Charles.

	24-01-2002 18:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesUFarley Charles.

I don't like yams. Should I hang out in the yam forum and tell the little old ladies trading yam recipes that they are deluding themselves and are "religiously loyal" to a poor excuse of a vegetable?


As the philosopher said:
I yam what I yam, and that's all that I yam.

	24-01-2002 19:47									#19
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I have a mixed view of RTS games (and suspect that I may have be too old to adapt to their pace ). The best one I have seen, and the only one I ever finished, was Starcraft. I've played EE a bit, it is very similar to AoE (no surprise, the lead designer is the same). It has its appeal, but really has very little in common with a TBS game like Civ, which is a much more complex game.

I've been trying to learn EU2 the last 10 days or so. It has a very steep learning curve, unfortunately abetted by a poor turorial and manual. (The manual is good on history and game concepts, poor on actually how to play the game--though I have heard it is much improved from EU1). Although the box bills EU2 as a real time game (ahh, marketing), it is much more akin to a game like Civ or Imperialism--you can pause the game, take as many actions as you like and then let time pass until the next event that needs your attention.

I do not have enough experience to really comment on EU2, though it seems extremely interesting. (Caveat--I majored in European history in college, hehe). It requires possibly more micromanagement than Civ, although of a different sort, and is actually slower paced despite the real time billing.

	24-01-2002 20:48									#20
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The really nice feature about EU-EU2 is that it is different enough from the basic civ-style TBS game to give a player a sense of playing something different, but it does have a TBS feel to it due to the pause feature in it.

It actually is closer in feel to 'Pharaoh' in that regard.

Yes, the learning curve is steep in that game, and there could be better documentation for how all the game concepts work together, but at the same time, it has a very rich and deep feel to it. The official EU2 Forums is a good place for help, and spending some time there helps immensely in grasping the basic concepts - if you have the time and the game, its a worthwhile investment to get the most out of EU2.

I got both civ3 and EU2 for Christmas and have yet to have the desire to try civ3 - thanks to everyone here (Yin, Libertarian) for their honest perspective of civ3.

Eventually I will get around to trying it, and I may be suprised by civ3, but for the moment, I'm playing EU2.

	24-01-2002 22:13									#21
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In my opinion, the TBS genre has more capacity to deliver a better strategy, but currently the RTS genre is outstripping it in that regard.

The decisions in a game like Empire Earth appear, at least to me, to be more strategically important than the ones in a TBS. It's actually possible to mount a come from behind win with a bit of luck and some careful management in most RTS games. in most TBS games, once you get behind you usually just keep on falling further and further behind. In other words, the RTS is more likely to keep you interested until the end.

Possibly one reason RTS doesn't let the leader run away with it is because as you get bigger, you've got more things to manage. In a TBS that's fine, you just take more time. In a RTS, you don't have more time, so you tend to get sloppy which gives the other player(s) a chance to catch up.

There are two other aspects I think are good about RTS - the real time nature tests not only your decision making skills but also your ability to think quickly on your feet, and also you really have to prioritise - you can't micromanage everything, so you have to decide what's most in need of your attention.

Ultimately I think TBS will catch up in offering this kind of experience, and it certainly has some advantages RTS does not - firstly, you can much more easily take a quick break from a TBS, and secondly it doesn't favour a player with quick reflexes to click buttons.

It's basically a style thing though - some TBS players hate RTS, some RTS players hate TBS, and others like both. You'll have to try a few games to decide where you sit (assuming you don't already know). I wouldn't bother with AOK personally, as in my opinion Empire Earth has everything it offers and then more.

And if you're looking at coming attractions, then MOO3 certainly looks interesting, but time will tell.

	24-01-2002 23:46									#22
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quote: Originally posted by CharlesUFarley Charles.

So this is your idea of being constructive and not getting in the way is it?

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the biggest hypocrite of all?

	25-01-2002 00:55									#23
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Thanks all. Keep the comments coming.

Aaron

	25-01-2002 01:10									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Willem So this is your idea of being constructive and not getting in the way is it? Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the biggest hypocrite of all?

Good point. Guilty that time.

Charles.

	25-01-2002 03:29									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Everyone probably already knows what I'm gonna say but I'm saying it anyway

Aschatz,
Have you considerd the CtP series? It's just like Civ only without Sid Here and here are some fairly decent threads that discuss the differences between Civ3 and CtP2 (and why CtP2 is so much better than Civ3, or the other way around - depending on who you listen to).

	05-02-2002 06:58									#26
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When you buy EE/AoK you go for something completely different: instantantly rewarding gameplay, easy learning curve, fairly nice graphics, action paced, quick thinking, tactical focus, limited historical realism, multiplay. Believe me, a lot of fun but it's more about quick response than deep thinking.

EU II is much more comparable to Civ III although it plays entirely different. The game is instantly frustrating because overwhelming and poorly documented (still a 100 pages though).
You need at least 2 days of full gameplay to figure out what the heck you are doing. If you make it through those 2 days, congratulations! It's open sesame because a treasure of unsurpassed historical gameplay reveals to you.
Only then you will start to appreciate:
- The historical realism and accuracte modelling. You will actually find yourself developping a interest in history and looking stuff up on the internet.
- Endless replayabilty. Over 100 countries (and simultanuous AI's, imagine that) to be played in a dozen scenario's is enough to complety ruin your social life.
- The very deep and complex level of strategy and thinking involved. Did I mention deep?
- The clean and intuitive interface providing a very solid gameplay.
- The nummers of adjustable options and parameters at your serve. For instance with all the diplomatic options you can make Henry Kissinger look like a boyscout.
- The excellent game support and community which is besides a great information source also a guarantee that the game is constantly improved with every patch.

Find out for yourself. You can also check the Civ 3 vs EU 2 thread.