28-01-2002 21:06									#31
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In any multicultural society the absence of Ids will be an automatic arrest warrent for black people. There is no evidence at all that Ids prevent terrorism or crime - criminals and terrorists after all have access to counterfeit documents and there are very few documents impervious to decent enough forgery that a flatfoot wouldn't be fooled. All that happens is that ordinary citizens get bothered when you introduce Id cards and generally the burden falls on the poorest and most ethnic sections of society.

ID cards suck.

	28-01-2002 23:07									#32
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Sadly right ! Be non common is always suspicious for the average of policmen. They don't like the right to the difference, these is lefties thing for them...

	29-01-2002 00:47									#33
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i've got just my military ID and a drivers liscense for photo ID's. both of those i've got no problem with. as for a national ID system . . . . ehhhh, blah.

	29-01-2002 02:10									#34
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ID in Canada is usually 'valid photo ID' (i.e. Driver's License) + SIN (social 'insurance' number)

The driver's license is supposed to be more difficult to forge, but where there's a will there's a way...my grandfather has been living under an assumed identity for the last 25 years to avoid income taxes.

My father doesn't seem to officially exist (although he has a Canadian passport under a different name).

I have no plans to make money from alcohol, cigarettes, or grass, so I don't have any need to disguise my identity from Revenue Canada. That's why I'm the first from my family to 'make it' into university.

	29-01-2002 22:00									#35
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I don’t know why, but I just couldn’t access Apolyton during the week-end. Everything else was OK.

Snapcase –

quote: What's wrong with a non-compulsory ID card that the police can not demand to see but that nevertheless can be used for all the functions described above? In the UK there isn't one- it's a drivers' licence (which non-drivers don't have), a passport (bulky to lug around) or nothing.

So, if you don’t drive a car nor travel outside your country you have nothing to prouve who you are.

Sprayber –

quote: I would be in favor of a National Id if it woud take the place of all the other forms of id we have to haul with us when dealing with the government. But it wouldn't. It would merely add another id to my growing collection in my wallet.

The national ID show that you are a citizen of this country and actually it the only truly indentification card. All the other so-called IDs are actually permits : driver license show your right to drive a car; colleges IDs show your right to enter in the campus and borow books from college library; military IDs show your right of acces in military instalations etc.

quote: He should just take my word for it.

Why? Did he knew you personally?

El Awrence
Documento Nacional de Identidad – It’s seems like the spanish for National Indentification Card
Cedula de Identidad – your passport for Mercosur
Driver's License – it’s just for drivers
Libreta de Enrolamiento – this is your “free from draft”? (I used the spanish-romanian resemblance to get at that conclusion)

paiktis22 –

quote: I have never been stopped by cops in my life. And I walk after 4 o'clock in the night for big distances all the time in central Athens.

As you said, police don’t stop everybody all the time.

Seeker –

quote: My father doesn't seem to officially exist.

In Romania first 8 years of school are free and mandatory. But you can go to a school if you don’t have a birth certificate and you can’t obtain a birth certificate if your parents don’t have IDs. There are more thoushands of gypsies in this situation.
Also when you are hired in certain jobs or in your first one, you have to bring to the firm a copy of your criminal record (“cazier” in romanian), elibarated by police.

	29-01-2002 22:21									#36
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The fact is Mihai that your mindset is conditioned by the effects of years of communist dictatorship. In the UK you don't need ID in normal life. You don't need to provide anything other then educational certificates to get a job and unless you are planning to travel you don't need a passport or other evidence of citizenship.

Now in the ex-communist world you need to be registered with the Police/Uvir where you live. You need to carry an ID Card/Internal passport; you can't legally move to certain towns without a propiska and why on god's earth do you need to show a birth certificate to go to school? As for a certificate from the police to get a job - that's plain stupid. Police can easily be bribed and any such certificate would have no probitive value whatsoever.

I know which world I would prefer to be in.

	30-01-2002 11:26									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Gasmaske The fact is Mihai that your mindset is conditioned by the effects of years of communist dictatorship.

I thought at that too. If I would need ID only in my relationship with the police I might have other opinions.
But when you want to sold your house or ger some cash from your account, how do you prove that is your house/account?

	30-01-2002 15:09									#38
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Most of us don't own our houses outright but have mortages. The building society hold deeds for the property and these prove your ownership. As for getting cash from my bank - I just put my cash card into a cash machine. Thats all the ID you need. Alternatively I can write a cheque and get cash for that.

If I need a lot of money I can ring the bank and arrange to withdraw the money from my bank. To do this I do need ID but thats just to protect me from being fleeced.

	30-01-2002 15:09									#39
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"Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA"

I have no problem with carrying around a National ID card. I already carry an Alaska State ID and Driver's License, and how much does a 1mm thick, 2x3 card weigh?

Steele

	30-01-2002 15:20									#40
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quote: Originally posted by steelehc "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA" I have no problem with carrying around a National ID card. I already carry an Alaska State ID and Driver's License, and how much does a 1mm thick, 2x3 card weigh? Steele

Did you read the thread or just go foir akneejerk reaction. I'll repeat my earlier post for you.

quote: In any multicultural society the absence of Ids will be an automatic arrest warrent for black people. There is no evidence at all that Ids prevent terrorism or crime - criminals and terrorists after all have access to counterfeit documents and there are very few documents impervious to decent enough forgery that a flatfoot wouldn't be fooled. All that happens is that ordinary citizens get bothered when you introduce ID cards and generally the burden falls on the poorest and most ethnic sections of society.

Does this help to explain why ID Cards are a bad idea?

	30-01-2002 17:08									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Gasmaske If I need a lot of money I can ring the bank and arrange to withdraw the money from my bank. To do this I do need ID but thats just to protect me from being fleeced.

So, there are situations when you need an ID.

	30-01-2002 17:34									#42
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Yes, but you don't need to carry it at all times and it's voluntary to get it. I don't have to open a bank account or get a passport or get a driving license if I don't want to.

Mostly I don't need any ID only on a very few occasions.

	30-01-2002 18:29									#43
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What I mean is that our national ID is a good for everything ID. There are enough scams anyway, I just have the filing that there will be much more without an ID.

I am in lack of ideas, but I have one : when you cash a cheque how do you prove that you are the owner of the account. A signature is much easier to conterfit than an ID.

	30-01-2002 20:36									#44
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You have a cheque card that authorises transactions up to £100. If you need to spend more than that, most places take it on trust or you give them your address and they can chase you if the cheque bounces.

	31-01-2002 10:36									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Gasmaske You have a cheque card that authorises transactions up to £100. If you need to spend more than that, most places take it on trust or you give them your address and they can chase you if the cheque bounces.

I want to cash a $10,000 cheque. I am a nice well dressed guy and my adress is Nowhere street no. 1

	31-01-2002 16:02									#46
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Well if you set up a bank account you must have had some kind of ID so you could show that. Maybe it's a driving license, maybe it's a passport. And that's only for your protection to stop someone stealing your money, not for the state to keep tabs on you.

Point is that although you might need it for some things you don't need to carry it around with you all the time. Police can't stop you in the street, demand to see your ID and if you don't have any arrest you just because of that. That, really, is the only reason to have a national ID card and it's not a good reason. It just means minorities get stopped and searched even more often than they already do.

	31-01-2002 17:33									#47
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Darn straight.

	31-01-2002 19:54									#48
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MikeH - Just a thought : how do you track down illegal imigrants?

Edit : depista (rom) = track down (engl). I was in a harry and forgot that english doesn't resemble with romanian like france does.

Last edited by Mihai on 01-02-2002 at 11:03

	31-01-2002 19:56									#49
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depistate?

	31-01-2002 21:36									#50
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Deport? Disperse? Destroy?

	01-02-2002 21:51									#51
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I corrected.

Another thought : when you want a driver license or a passport, what papers do you need?

	01-02-2002 22:07									#52
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Your birth certificate and the signature of a "professional" who has known you for two years to confirm your ID.

In some circumstances you may also need to provide your parents' birth & wedding certificates or certificates of naturalisation to obtain a UK passport - normally if your or your parents are not UK born, or where they have obtained citizenship by means other than birth. (Please don't ask me to go into the rules for UK citizenship - its boring and its not fun to regurgitate).

	01-02-2002 23:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Gasmaske the signature of a "professional" who has known you for two years to confirm your ID.

That I like it!
Never heard of something like that before.

	01-02-2002 23:19									#54
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National IDs can lead to less beaurocracy if for most things you just need your ID and nothing else.

	01-02-2002 23:52									#55
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Hmmm.

ID's are necessary. No doubt about that. They offer certain protections in your business and financial dealings (requiring ID's prevents Joe Somebody from getting a Visa Charge Card in my name and running up a big-a$$ bill for me to pay. So, there's no denying the value of ID's, HOWEVER....

Those kinds of ID's are the ones you don't have to carry around with you 24/7.

In the end, compulsory ID's are about control.

Who are you? Why are you here? Where are you going?

And once you start requiring a compulsory ID be carried anytime you leave your house, then where does it stop?

Short answer...it won't.

Here is, in my mind, a fairly "natural progression" that compulsory ID's would take:

1) Hey! It'd be awesome if we had this one, unified, national ID that everyone had to carry at all times (and we could issue similar ID's to everyone entering this country--GREAT way to track the movements of everyone! If you've got nothing to hide, it's no biggie! TRUST US! It's for your own good! :: Dubya in the background saying: "If we don't do this, the terrorists win....":: ) Failure to produce your ID on demand would result in detainment until you could be "properly identified."

2) OH! You know, with all the technological advances available, we could include a chip on "THE CARD" which would contain your entire medical history! Yes! And that way, if anything happened to you, the doctors would be able to just...POOF! Pull up everything about you! (what you're allergic to, last cholesterol count, blood type, all that jazz)...good stuff!

3) Hmmm...well, since we have this unified card now, this would be a good required ID to use when applying for credit. In fact, when you apply for credit, what we'll do is add a magentic stripe to the back of "THE CARD" and you can just use it to buy stuff! (cos you DID remember to bring it with you...didn't you?)

4) Ahhh ha! This card has alllll the informationn potential employers need to help them make "informed hiring decsions." Potential employees will henceforth be required to surrender their card so that we (THE COMPANY) can check your background....you know, the usual stuff, look over your credit report, check out your spending habits, see if you're a smoker....you said no on your application, but according to your medical history....why are you lying to us, Mr. Hartpence? What ELSE might you be hiding? You strike us as a "dangerous man."....

***Two AM....On foot, on the way to the convenience store near my townhouse....lights flash, cop approaches***

Officer: "What are you doing out at this time of night?"

Me: "Well...as if it's any of your business, I'm going up to grab a beer and a pack of smokes."

Officer: "I don't like your attitude, punk. Let's see some ID."

(Produces ID....waits while the cop runs it through the computer....some of my neighbors drive by--also night owls, which is one of the reasons we get along--looking worried for me).

Officer: "Says here the last credit purchase you made was almost a month ago....nobody goes that long without buying something....you must be using cash" (cop looks VERY suspicious)

Me: "I confess, officer...I committed the "crime" of using cash cos I didn't like the idea of just any a$$hole--not directed at YOU, of course (smiling innocently) to be able to see everything I've ever bought."

Cop: "Well...why not? Are you HIDING something?"

Me: "No...it's just none of your business."

Cop: "That's very suspicious....you dissenters make me sick!"

Yeah....Sadly, I can see that all too vividly....


-=Vel=-

	02-02-2002 02:22									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Mihai That I like it! Never heard of something like that before.

Its just a safeguard against fraud. the professional needs to be some like a Police Officer, a Civil Servant, a Doctor, an Accountant etc etc etc. In most cases its just to confirm the likeness of the photo. The passport agency do run checks but I won't go into that.

As far as IDs helping you detect illegal immigrants. I can't comment as its a little too close to home (working for the government and all).

And Velociryx has hit the nail firmly on the head.

	02-02-2002 05:52									#57
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I would prefer a single National ID card compared to the current system of dozens of cards needed, on the condition that YOU as the owner of the card would have control of what information that card gives out, even to the police.

I currently have a drivers lisence (the main form of id), 2 bank cards, medical card, 2 video store cards (from the same store, one for both locations) as well as other miscellaneous ones. How much easier would it be to only have 1 card?? If say someone stole my wallet, it would be a pain (and costly) to get replacements for all those cards, and to stop those other cards from being used by whoever had them now.

With just 1 smart card, it would be fairly easy to replace. Getting the information back onto it would still be as much of a problem as replacing cards currently, granted, but would be a lot cheaper.
One distinct advantage of the single card though would be that whoever stole it wouldnt be able to access any of the information contained on the card, as each section would be password-protected like bank cards with PINs.

So for Vels example:
Officer: "Wheres your ID??"

You hand him the ID

Officer: "Well, the name and address you gave me match what it says here, and the photo also matches what you look like. Since you have no criminal record and I have no access to any other information contained on your card, you are free to go..."

You: (out of police's hearing) "Bastard"


If ownership and access to the information was controlled soley by YOU, then there would be nothing to fear by using a single card any more than you would fear the current system. Companies, banks, whoever, would only be able to access the information that YOU allowed them to.

	02-02-2002 06:00									#58
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Mandatory identifiction is a poor excuse to crack down on otherwise law-abding "illegal" immigrants.

Any competent terrorist would simply forge one.

	02-02-2002 06:08									#59
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I agree, Skanky, and I liked your re-working of my skit!

Sadly, the government doesn't agree....

I fear once that ball starts rolling, we'll quickly find it out of our hands and control....

And Amen Ramo! Gosh it feels good to be on the same side of the fence with you! I like your posts and style!

-=Vel=-

	02-02-2002 06:12									#60
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Also, by using smart cards for an ID, forging could be reduced as the information would be the important bit of the ID, not the physical appearance of the ID card.

Disclaimer:
If the American Govt ever came out with a National ID, there would be no way in hell I'd ever use it (excluding that fact im not in America)
Such a card would probably deem more of your information 'necessary to be publically available' and corporations for example would probably be allowed access to your spending history. Also, I would guarantee that back-doors would be included to allow the Govt/FBI/CIA access to everything on your card without the need of a password. In short, your private information would not be private.

For a card such as the one I envisioned to come about, it would most likely come from Eurasia. Their information policy is to put the individual before the corporation.

LOL Vel - I posted this disclaimer before I even read your post *bg*