26-01-2002 11:43									#1
	Do we need IDs? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In Romania and Hungary (I am sure about that) and perhaps in the rest of ex-communist states, every person who is at least 14 years old must have an ID card. In Romania the ID contains : name, date of birth, foto, adress, CNP (Numerical Personal Code - an 12 digits number unic for every romanian).

I know that was a similar thread a time ago, but I have a problem to understand how in same country people manage without an ID. In Romania you need your ID in a lot of situation : when you register in a school/university, when you make a bussines, when you pick up a package from mail, when you sign for a petition.
The part that seems to dislike to those to oppose the IDs - been ckeck by police - isn't happen too often. You have to present your ID together with your drive license on road check or if you wander on the street at night (not that common in Romania). The road police have the right to make random check. I hapend once to me - I presented my ID, drive license, and car talon. The policeman check the papers (actually the plastics ), took a short look at the car and all took only 2 minutes. The policeman was polite and he didn't even carried a gun.

I know that some people say that this is a atentat at liberties, but for me is a (very) small price to pay for security.

	26-01-2002 11:46									#2
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We get by with Drivers Licenses. You didn't really need ID for anything under 14 years old (Learners) or 16 (real), and a Birth Certificate and/or Passport usually sufficed.

I'm not opposed to a national ID card system though, as long as it doesn't cost too much.

	26-01-2002 11:52									#3
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In Argentina we have like 4/5 different IDs... bloody government makes you pay hand over fist for them too.

	26-01-2002 11:56									#4
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In the USA it seems driver's license is needed most of the time, with birth certificate and/or social security (9 digit number) for everything else.

	26-01-2002 12:07									#5
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quote: or if you wander on the street at night

I really don't feel like giving the cops the right to stop me and check my ID because I want to go for a midnight walk.

Right now we have plenty of pieces of ID; it's just that you're not required to show them to the guvmint except in very specific circumstances. For the cops to stop you and compel you to show them some ID requires that you either be driving a car, or that they have probable cause of some kind.

	26-01-2002 12:14									#6
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we have ID. The police theoretically can ask you for it if they have propable cause. It never happens. (unless you give them the middle finger or something).

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 26-01-2002 at 12:29

	26-01-2002 12:36									#7
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence In Argentina we have like 4/5 different IDs... bloody government makes you pay hand over fist for them too.

4-5? Can you exemplify?

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse For the cops to stop you and compel you to show them some ID requires that you either be driving a car, or that they have probable cause of some kind

When you wander on an empty street at 2 AM you are at least suspect - this is the probable cause.

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The police theoretically can ask you for it if they have propable cause. It never happens. (unless you give them the middle finger or something).

In this case in Romania they will ask your ID after they arrest you (if there are other people around) or don't ask at all (but you'll get a few stick in the head )

	26-01-2002 12:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Mihai When you wander on an empty street at 2 AM you are at least suspect - this is the probable cause.

Hmm.
I sometimes go out at 1, 2, or 3AM for some fresh air. And sometimes to smoke some stuff too. Maybe you're right about the probable cause.

	26-01-2002 12:46									#9
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Mihai,
Do people steal either your identity card or the number to use for crimes?

	26-01-2002 12:46									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Mihai In this case in Romania they will ask your ID after they arrest you (if there are other people around) or don't ask at all (but you'll get a few stick in the head )

Yeah I exagerate. It is generally unadvisable to give the middle finger to the cops.

Unless you are on a march, protest whatever. There it seems to be obligatory to do so (for some people at least - not me )

	26-01-2002 12:55									#11
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There's a couple funny things about Social Security numbers (United States). It's 'officially' only meant for dealing with the government, and only for Social Securtiy and other taxes at that; you are not supposed to be handing it out to anyone. In spite of that, everyone uses the SSN as a sort of universal identification--for everything from credit cards and bank loans to the local video rental place.

The card itself has to be the most easily forged, being only a piece of white unlaminated cardstock with the monochromatic blue SS symbol on it, and your name and SSN printed over that in what appears to be the courier font. In spite of this, its a difficult card to replace if you lose it--you are required to present either your birth certificate, or passport and drivers license; copies won't do, it must be the originals, even if done by mail.

	26-01-2002 12:56									#12
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quote: Originally posted by cia Mihai, Do people steal either your identity card or the number to use for crimes?

There is your foto on the ID and usually you have to show it, not just tell the CNP. It isn't like the credit cards in USA, where you can tell the number at the phone.

quote: Unless you are on a march, protest whatever

Yeap. Anyway, for some reason, the romanians protestors don't have that habit.

	26-01-2002 13:05									#13
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There is a clear issue with ID counterfeiting etc.

In the EU you can travel anywahere you want just with your ID, you don't need a passport. (except for Britain I think because it has not signed the Shengen Treaty).

But since there are so many different ID forms all over Europe it is better to have your passport with you in order not to wait long.

In the near future there will be a unified EU ID. That way there will be no mix up. And they will be very difficult to counterfeit. (because they can be used for traveling all around Europe too)

	26-01-2002 13:09									#14
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Here in Arizona, USA they either just steal you ID and cut in their own picture, or they can get an ID made at a swap market for $20 dollars.

	26-01-2002 13:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by cia Here in Arizona, USA they either just steal you ID and cut in their own picture, or they can get an ID made at a swap market for $20 dollars.

The romanian ID is made completly from plastic - your foto imprimated. I don't know how hard are to conterfit them, but I don't heard of too many cases.

	26-01-2002 13:27									#16
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quote: When you wander on an empty street at 2 AM you are at least suspect - this is the probable cause

Not here it isn't. Maybe if you're wearing a ski mask and generally match the description of someone who's been breaking into houses in that neighbourhood. Otherwise they have no business stopping you for using public property in a peaceful manner at any time of the day or night.

	26-01-2002 13:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not here it isn't. Maybe if you're wearing a ski mask and generally match the description of someone who's been breaking into houses in that neighbourhood. Otherwise they have no business stopping you for using public property in a peaceful manner at any time of the day or night.

In Romania there are few to none those to use to walk in the middle of the night. In principle you are right, but isn't like the police stop and search anyone who walk on the streets at night. It's just that they have the right to do so. Actually they can legitimate you at day too, but that happen just in raids.

	26-01-2002 13:43									#18
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In Israel, if you're older than 16 and go without your identity card you can be arrested... Of course that only one percent of the population and one percent of the police know about this law.

	26-01-2002 13:57									#19
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Here is the same. If you are over 18 years old and found without an ID card, the police brings you down to a station until a friend of yours come to rescue you, or that you're found to be an illegal immigrant.

On the other hand, every policeman here knows this law

	26-01-2002 19:38									#20
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Mihai: What's wrong with a non-compulsory ID card that the police can not demand to see but that nevertheless can be used for all the functions described above? In the UK there isn't one- it's a drivers' licence (which non-drivers don't have), a passport (bulky to lug around) or nothing.

	26-01-2002 19:47									#21
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We don't need no stinking ids

wait a minute. We have more than our share of ids here. America has all forms of ids. Some mean nothing, and some mean a lot. Some business require Ids. Most Colleges have photo ids. You have your drivers liscense. I have my Military Id. Sometimes you are asked for at least two forms of ids. We are id'ed to death here somtimes.

During the cold war I heard so many people be proud of the fact that in America you could drive from one end of the country to the other without having to show your "papers". Now I can't rent a movie without dragging out my Hastings or Hollywood video renter card

I would be in favor of a National Id if it woud take the place of all the other forms of id we have to haul with us when dealing with the government. But it wouldn't. It would merely add another id to my growing collection in my wallet.

Oh, and about cops stopping people for just walking at night. Well never underestimate the actions of a bored police officer waiting for something to do. I was walking from a friends house a few years ago(she lived three blocks down the street and I didn't want to drive) and as I was walking towards my apartment, a cop car turned on its lights and pulled up next to me. (first time being pulled over while walking) And he started asking me all kinds of questions about what I was doing and asked to see my drivers liscense. Of course you could see my apartment from where we were at. I wanted to make a joke about me being white and this isn't supposed to happen to me but better judgement prevailed. Anyway, the point is it was a wast of time. He obviously didn't have anything better to do. In a way I was annoyed because I was just walking along the street and not hurting anyone. Sometimes we Americans get indignant about things like that. It took about 10 minutes to get things straight, but it was 10 minutes that the government had taken from me. I just didn't see the need for him to run my name through his computer to see if I had any warrents or was a viloent criminal. I knew that I was a fine upstanding man. He should just take my word for it. But in the end, there was no great harm done except that maybe a myth had been broken. The myth that any person can just be minding their own business and still be suspect. I wonder what in his mind presented probable cause that I was up to no good?

	26-01-2002 21:59									#22
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quote: we have ID. The police theoretically can ask you for it if they have propable cause. It never happens. (unless you give them the middle finger or something).

It happens all the time. You have to show them your ID, or'they can pick you off the street and hold you until they verify your identity. If you look weird, it will happen to you all the time.

I've had my ID checked once by armed policemen, when i was on vacation. I was the only senior in my group and the only one carrying an ID and I was the only one checked. They were looking for illegal immigrants and they were satisfied hearing us speak greek. One immigrant who failed to provide his ID was arrested and handcuffed.

Quite a few acquaintances of mine have been found with no ID and have been hauled to the police station to have their criminal records checked, in various occasions.

	26-01-2002 22:32									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Mihai 4-5? Can you exemplify?

Documento Nacional de Identidad (this is the big one)
Cedula de Identidad (this one the police does for you, it isn't a requirement, but it's common for Mercosur so it makes travel easier within Mercosur: ergo you get it. Apart from that, you don't want to walk around with the previous one in your pocket)
Driver's License (only worth anything to drive in theory)
Some people also have Libreta Civica (for women) or Libreta de Enrolamiento (for men) but this was done away with some time ago, but some people still have them.

	27-01-2002 01:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber He obviously didn't have anything better to do. In a way I was annoyed because I was just walking along the street and not hurting anyone. Sometimes we Americans get indignant about things like that.

Of course Sprayber are you jocking? I too would be pissed off big time if he stopped me like that.

Axi, Sprayber

What exactly constitues propable cause? Having purple hair 30 cm up your head while wearing a T-shirt that writes 666 is not propable cause. If that was the case all of the heavy-metal population of Athens would be harrased!

Do we know what propable cause is? (I admit it is a bit fuzzy to me)

I have never been stopped by cops in my life. And I walk after 4 o'clock in the night for big distances all the time in central Athens. (I prefere walking that taking transport, cars or taxis if its under 2 kms )

I've walked pasted stationed riot police, police cars etc right between them without any problem. But I guess I'm a typical greek lad so I don't present a «target».

About immigrands, yes they stop them all the time. With all the rampant illigal immigrantion from the Balkans and the East to Greece I agree with that.

I don't think it's a violation of human rights. It's reality. We have a problem with illegal aliens. We can't have a 100% closed borders, many will succeed in entering. So the checks are necessairy. As long as there is NO police overstepping its bounderies I don't think it's lamentable. And if they have green cards the check only takes a minute.

The police in Greece is sweathearts compared with western Europe. There if you violate the law and give any trouble they have the right to beat you senseless and no court is going to uphold your point of view.

Here you can start reasoning with the cop and if you are not provockative you can even get away for minor infrictions of law (such as not wearing a helmet on a motorcycle or doing a small violation of road guidelines with your car for example)

In general Greek cops are much more «forgiving» than in western Europe and much more polite. In general.

	28-01-2002 16:39									#25
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In france, Ids aren't mandatory. But you must be able to prove your identity.

Since the bloody terrorist act at the beginning of the 90', we are in alert state 'vigipirate'.

Since the destruction of the twin tower, we are on state 'vigipirate' reenforced.

So now you have walk with your IDs. Policemen & official milice could stop you and control your IDs without specific reason (If they don't like your face ...).

But in france it's easy to not be controlled : be well dressed, be white and you can travell in France with guns, drugs & bombs without any problems.

My girlfriend is from North-Africa. I travelled by plan in november with her. I was normally checked at the airport. But my girlfriend was carefully checked (her luggage, not her ).
One time, they were checking one of my packs because they believed that it was one of her packs. When I said to the guardians that it was my pack (and when they saw my white french cute face) they stop checking it.

I could have been a new converted terro, and the plane would have been blowed up.

Bravo

	28-01-2002 19:14									#26
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I dont like the ID's

People are trying to get them in the USA to help fight terrorism. Obvouisly...the terrorists werent citizen's. So, it a pretty redundant and moronic political solution.


In Europe it might make sense. Considering the cross border commerce. Then you would have to make a continental database. It might help.

	28-01-2002 19:30									#27
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Absolutely we need IDS. He's done far better than I ever expected him to when he was elected leader of the Conservative Party, and hopefully he'll continue with his good work.

	28-01-2002 20:22									#28
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An irritating number of persons I have encounted could not remmeber who the hell they were without and ID.

	28-01-2002 20:34									#29
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No mandatory ID cards here, but you can get one if you want. Police can demand you prove your identity on justified suspicion (I usually have my driving license with me just in case, and for most other ID-related stuff).

	28-01-2002 21:00									#30
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I usually carry 2-3 IDs. My Uni one, which is required for my meals and entry into my dorm, my driver's license for various things including writing checks, and a bad fake over 21 ID