28-01-2002 19:59									#1
	The Ancient Times mod - Help Wanted Tired of ads?

*Attention* the same thread shall be started in the "Civilizations" forum - Mods please be so kind and let the double be until we get things rolling (or not) and then you can close it down. Thank you.

I was thinking of an interesting modification for Civ3. A all-ancient mediteranean (and surrounding, like middle east-fertile crescent) mod. It would be rather interesting and also very fond to those who like the ancient civilizations.

But... it's a biggie. Actually not one I could carry on, since my time (devoted to anything but my work and my wife) is quite limited. So, I am looking for people who like this idea and care to join an effort to actually make a workable Ancient Times mod.

There are numerous issues - which civilizations to include, work on cities, leaders, heros and then the big one about the artwork... huh, so many things to do...

But we could work with some of the included civs (Greeks, Roman, Babylonian, Egypt, India and Persian are there, with some flaws but nothing that can't be corrected - as Indias leader of course should change) and add more by ourselves.

Like... ok, let's see. A good line-up for the ancient med/middle east would be:

- Rome
- Greece
- Egypt
- Babylon
- Persia
- India
- Karthago (and/or Phoenicia)
- Celts
- Hebrew
- Skythes
- Gauls (yes, they are Celts too...)
- Nubians
- Assyrian
- Hittites
- Ethiopians
- Etruscii

More suggestions: Illyrians, Thracians, Ionian Greeks, Italian Greeks, Medes, Parthians, Macedonian Greeks, Molloses - there are hundreds of civs we could use.

Alright, I am trying to lure some people into this project. If you like it, post here and we can discuss it.

Thanks

Rosacrux

Last edited by Rosacrux on 28-01-2002 at 20:04

	28-01-2002 22:01									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Cool idea!

Will you add new techs / ages as well?

Some ideas for ages:
Prehistoric / Copper Age / Stone Age
Bronze Age
Iron Age
Roman Times

...or you could use only Greek ages:
Dark Age
Archaic Age
Classical Age
Hellenistic Period

Any thoughts...?

PS: I'll think of some techs later...

EDIT: Oh, btw, here's a list of ancient units I made some time ago:

Unit -- stats (two numbers with a "-" between them means that it could be either) -- Prerequiste -- Prereq. resources -- (if it is drafted)
Light Infantry, 1/1/2-1, Nil, none
Bowmen 2/1/1-2, Warrior Code
Archers 3/1/1-2, Archery
Peasant Militia 1/2/1-2, Farming, +none (drafted)
Militia Spearman 2/3/2-3, Copper, +copper (drafted)
Long Spearmen 2/4/2-3, Iron Weapons, +iron (drafted)
Sickle Swordsmen 3/1/2-3, Warrior Code, +copper
Short Swordsmen 4/2/1-4, Military Tactics, +copper, +tin
Legionnaires 6/3/1-5, Iron Weapons, +iron
Chariots 3/1/4-3, The Wheel, +horses
Scythed Chariots 4/1/4-4, The Wheel, +horses, +copper
Scout Cavalry 0/1/6-2, Horseback Riding, +horses
Light Cavalry 2/2/5-4, Horseback Riding, +horses
Heavy Cavalry 6/3/3-5, Horse Barding, +horses, +copper, +tin
Cataphracts 8/3/3-6, Horse Tactics, +horses, +iron
Horse Archers 6/2/5-4, Horse Archery, +horses

Ram 0/0/2, 2/1/1, Warrior Code
Scorpion/Ballista 5/0/1, Mathematics
Catapult 0/0/1, 4/2/2, Mathematics
Armored Scorpion/Ballista 5/2/1, Siege Warfare, +iron
Mangonel 0/0/1, 6/2/2, Siege Warfare
Siege Tower (tr. 1 inf.) 0/3/1, 3/1/2, Siege Warfare
Onager 0/0/1, 8/2/3, Ballistics

Straw Boat 0/0/3, Nil, none
Sail (tr. 1 unit) 0/1/4, The Sail, +cloth, +wood
Pentekonter (tr. 1 unit) 1/1/5, Map Making, +cloth, +wood
Bireme (tr. 2 units) 2/2/7, The Naval Ram, +cloth, +wood, +copper
Trireme (tr. 3 units) 3/2/9, Naval Architecture, +cloth, +wood, +copper
Quinquireme (tr. 4 units) 4/3/12, Seafaring, +cloth, +wood, +copper, +tin
Dromon (tr. 3 units) 4/3/14, 3/1/1, Naval Tactics, +cloth, +wood, +iron
Fireship 3/2/8, 6/1/1, Greek Fire, +cloth, +wood, +iron
Caravel (tr. 6 units) 4/2/16, Star Navigation, +cloth, +wood

Last edited by hetairoi22 on 04-02-2002 at 18:35

	28-01-2002 22:19									#3
	Way to go! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Good one, hetairoi22 (I can see by your nick that you are indeed interested into the ancient era).

Yes, the unit list looks good and if more people can get into this discussion, it could work out quite well. I won't comment on specifics now, because it's too early, but we have something in hand here.

Also, about the ages, I guess we should use something more wider than the Greek eras [allthough I would be absolutely thrilled to make a "Ancient Greeks" mod... but since all but few greek states were cities (save Macedonia and the Hellenistic Kingdoms) I think we 'll have some hard time finding city lists, not to mention UUs for all...]

The first list sounds good, but we'd have to change the Roman Ages into something else, since the Romans shall be in the game. Any other ideas? Keep them coming

	29-01-2002 00:39									#4
	Re: Way to go! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Rosacrux Good one, hetairoi22 (I can see by your nick that you are indeed interested into the ancient era).

Yeah, I am! And I presume that you are too...?

quote: Originally posted by Rosacrux Yes, the unit list looks good and if more people can get into this discussion, it could work out quite well. I won't comment on specifics now, because it's too early, but we have something in hand here.

I'm glad you like 'em! Hmm, I like making ideas more than making mods, lol, so I hope we can make this idea into somethin'!

quote: Originally posted by Rosacrux Also, about the ages, I guess we should use something more wider than the Greek eras [allthough I would be absolutely thrilled to make a "Ancient Greeks" mod... but since all but few greek states were cities (save Macedonia and the Hellenistic Kingdoms) I think we 'll have some hard time finding city lists, not to mention UUs for all...]

Yeah, cool but tough... I think it would be better to make a scenario...but since we can't...

quote: Originally posted by Rosacrux The first list sounds good, but we'd have to change the Roman Ages into something else, since the Romans shall be in the game. Any other ideas? Keep them coming

Hmm, what 'bout this settup?

Prehistoric Age
Bronze Age
Early Iron Age
Late Iron Age

How exactly had you pictured the time-frame? 2000 BC - 300 AD ?

	29-01-2002 01:46									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Some more thoughts:

I think that the Macedonian Greeks should definetly be in, perhaps instead of the Etruscans (which doesn't have a very unique unit). The Macedonians could have the Hetairoi (first heavy cavalry) or Phalangites.

The Greeks could then be the Mycanaeans or the Minoans, so that they wouldn't start so near the Macedonians. If we made a huge map Crete could be fairly large so that the Minoans would have a chance of flurishing (that is if we can set starting possitions...)

My $0.02...

	29-01-2002 03:05									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

hetairoi: The civs to include are also being discussed in the Civ3-Civilizations Forum.
Yes, an Etruscan UU will be difficult to find, but to make a hellenocentric game can't be the answer. Etruscan culture, though in its later period almost a greek cultural province, should have a place in an ancient mod. Not only for their influence on the romans but also for being a unique urban society with a (very)unique language with much influence at its peak.

What a shame that we can't make a greek scenario though, that'd be nice. Even in Civ2 I wasn't satisfied for no one seemed to care to include Sicily and lower Italy in ANY Greece map...

	29-01-2002 11:59									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yes, I see your concern... but, if the mod is to take place on a specific map, how do we stop nearby civs to conquer each other early on ? Like the Etrucans and the Romans, Macedonians and Greeks, Egyptians and Nubians...

If it isn't going to be on a pre-made map this isn't a problem of course.

Yeah, I know it isn't a good idea to remove the Etruscans, but I so want the Macedonians to be there as well. They _were_ very important, no?

	29-01-2002 16:52									#8
	About civs Full PM-box? Change here!

Hetairoi22

I would also like the Macedonian Greeks to be included - eventhough being a Greek myself I insist into the Greek-ness of the Macedonian civilization - because it would greatly serve gameplay and diversity - imagine hoplites and mac. phalanx or hetairoi cavalry?

But ...there is something that bugs me. About the map. I think we could start this off without any particular map in mind (because in any fair map of the region that is dictated by the civs we are using, we'd have to pair some of those very close: Greeks/Macedonian/Minoan and Roman/Etruscan as well as Babylonian/Assyrian and others).

so maybe we could just eliminate that annoyance by starting off without any specific game map in mind. Later, when Infogreed releases the add-on with the scenario builder, we can use those civs we make here to create some pretty interesting scenarios.

BTW I think it would be more appropriate (?) to discuss the civs we include plus their leaders, attributes, UUs over at the "Civilizations" forum and save this conversation for the eras (the new list of hetairoi22 looks good. any objections, anyone?) techs, wonders and general units.

	29-01-2002 19:34									#9
	Re: Re: Way to go! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by hetairoi22 Prehistoric Age Bronze Age Early Iron Age Late Iron Age

In the CtP2 MedMod we used the term Classical Age to indicate 'Roman' times, so maybe have only one Iron Age and rename the last age to Classical Age? Other than that, it sounds good to me...

Starting without maps sounds excellent to me, exactly what I would (and more or less already did) assume...

	29-01-2002 19:44									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think we can keep the combined Locutus-hetairoi22 idea on the eras, so if someone does not have any strong objections, we go with this:

- Prehistoric age
- Bronze age
- Iron age
- Classical age

With those in mind, the timeframe should be set... hhmm.. let's see, a start at 2000 BC or something like that and an end at ...the fall of Rome? Or the establishment of Constantinople? Ideas about that?

OK, I am taking suggestions for the tech-tree too. Hetairoi22 if you can post your tech tree (the one you based your units on) we could start discussing it and see where it leads us.

	29-01-2002 20:20									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Here's my (quite unfinished) techtree edited a little to fit with the units (no, I didn't make them together or on the same time...):

Tech. Prerequisite 1. Prerequisite 2. Leads to….
Tool Making. Nil. Nil. Archery, The Plow, Bronze Smelting.

Alphabet. Nil. Nil. Writing, Map Making, Mathematics.

Copper (1st mil. tech). Tool Making. Nil. Bronze Smelting.

Bargaining/Commerce/ Bartering. Nil. Nil. Currency, Potter’s Wheel, Vertical Loom/Commercial Textile Production.

Ceremonial Burial. Nil. Nil. Mysticism.

Pottery. Nil. Nil. Potter’s Wheel, Iron Forging.

The Sail. Nil. Nil. Map Making.

Mathematics. Alphabet. Nil. Siege Warfare, Astronomy, Education.

Agriculture (Farming). Nil. Nil. The Plow.

Animal Husbandry. Nil. Nil. Chariots.

Textiles. Nil. Nil. Vertical Loom.

The Wheel. Nil. Nil. Chariots, Potter’s Wheel.

Rubble Structures. Nil. Nil. Masonry.

Potter’s Wheel. The Wheel/ Pottery. Bargaining. Seafaring.

Map Making. Alphabet. The Sail. The Naval Ram.

Mysticism. Ceremonial Burial. Nil. Philosophy, Polytheism, Astronomy.

The Plow. Agriculture. Tool Making. Crop Rotation.

(The )Naval Ram(ming). Map Making. ?. Naval Architecture.

Masonry. Rubble Structures. The Wheel. Construction, Siege Warfare.

Warrior Code. Nil. Nil. Archery, Monarchy.

Naval Architecture. Mathematics (?). (The )Naval Ram(ming). Seafaring.

Writing. Alphabet. Nil. Code of Laws.

Code of Laws. Writing. Nil. Literacy, Monarchy.

Bronze Smelting. Tool Making. Copper. Iron Forging.

Siege Warfare. Masonry. Mathematics. Ballistics, Naval Tactics.

Vertical Loom/ Commercial Textile Production. Textiles. Bargaining/Commerce/ Bartering. ?.

Horseback Riding. Chariots. Nil. Mounted Tactics.

Archery. Warrior Code. Tool Making. Horseback Archery, Feudalism.

Crop Rotation. The Plow. Mysticism. ?.

(Iron) Forging. Bronze Smelting. Pottery. Bridge Building, Metallurgy.

Moldboard Plow. Iron Forging. The Plow. ?.

Monarchy. Code of Laws. Warrior Code. Feudalism.

Iron Weapons. Iron Forging. Warrior Code.
Chariots. Animal Husbandry. The Wheel. Mounted Tactics.

Literacy. Code of Laws. Nil. Philosophy.

Astronomy. Mysticism. Mathematics. Physics.

Mounted Tactics. Horseback Riding. Warrior Code. Horse Archery, Chivalry.

Horse Archery. Mounted Tactics. Archery. ?.

Horse Barding. Mounted Tactics. Iron Weapons. Chivalry.

Feudalism. Monarchy. Archery. Chivalry (Ballistics).

Seafaring. Naval Architecture. Potter’s Wheel. Star Navigation, Naval Tactics.

Astronomy (Astrology). Mysticism. Mathematics. Star Navigation.

Naval Tactics. Seafaring. Siege Warfare (?). Greek Fire.

Star Navigation. Seafaring. Astronomy. ?.

Philosophy. Literacy. Mysticism. Ethics, Education.

Education. Philosophy. Mathematics. Physics, Greek Fire.

Greek Fire. Naval Tactics. Education. ?.

Chivalry. Horse Barding. Feudalism.Leadership.

Physics. Education. Star Navigation. Gunpowder, Metallurgy, Ballistics.

(If it is to messy, I can upload a Word-file (*.doc))

EDIT: I already did. Next post

EDIT2: I have seperated: tech. preq1. preq2. leads to.

SO f.x.

Chivalry. Code of Laws (?). Legislature / Peace Pacts. Castles, rockthrowing

Means that the Tech in question is "Chivalry". Its first prerequiste, "Code of Laws" is very uncertain and up for discussion. Chivalry's second prerequiste is "Legislature" OR "Peace Pacts" (I'm not sure which one to choose). Chivalry Leads to "Castles" AND "Rockthrowing".

Comments are welcome!

Last edited by hetairoi22 on 04-02-2002 at 01:45

	29-01-2002 20:22									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here's the doc file (Word 2000):

Attachment: ancienttechs.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	29-01-2002 20:51									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Rosacrux With those in mind, the timeframe should be set... hhmm.. let's see, a start at 2000 BC or something like that and an end at ...the fall of Rome? Or the establishment of Constantinople? Ideas about that?

The oldest of the civilizations currently being discussed in the other thread all started around 3000 BC (Egypt, Harappan, Sumer, Minoan), so that would be a logical starting point. A good endyear would indeed be around the time of the fall of Rome, around 500 AD...

	29-01-2002 23:28									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with Locutus here about the starting point of the mod, about the end: what about the arab conquests, more precisely the conquest of Syria (~660) to mark the end?

	29-01-2002 23:53									#15
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I agree with Locutus here about the starting point of the mod, about the end: what about the arab conquests, more precisely the conquest of Syria (~660) to mark the end?

If so, I think that there must be one more age... the Arabs don't really fit into the Classical Age... Maybe the Age of Conquest (Arab conquest, Barbarian conquests in Europe...) or the Dark Age...

I like the idea, BUT is it now really Ancient? More like medieval...

Personally I think the mod should stop around 400...

Any thoughts?

	30-01-2002 00:31									#16
	Eras Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

My take is that we should stick to the "official" end of the ancient world - and for most historians that would be the fall of Rome to the Goths.

Wernazuma I can see your point about the conquest-era final point, but that would set us out of the "classical antiquity". But again, we are open on discussion here. My vote goes with the fall of Rome. Others?

	30-01-2002 01:34									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, I think the fall of Rome 410 is already an obvious consequence of the happenings in the "western part" of antiquity which was already corrupted for quite a time then. But when we make an antiquity mod, we should not fall into a "western european" centrism. We can't avoid to be somewhat eurocentric, but we shouldn't focus especially on the "more barbarian" area of antiquity. The east had a longer tradition, both regarding origins and they kept the tradition much longer. OK, I agree, we can't continue until the fall of Constantinople, that's way to exagerated. But a cut mark for the ancient east were the arab conquests which conquered many lands that, until then, stood in a lasting tradition of greek-roman culture. With losing Egypt and Syria the Eastern Roman Empire lost much of its core territory, the Sassanids were conquered about the same time, so the persian tradition was heavily cut.

My conclusion is that the Arab conquests in the end had an impact on "the end of Antiquity" equally or even higher than the so called Völkerwanderung, and as it was ocurring later, it should also be the end of the mod. Just my own 2 cents...

	31-01-2002 01:40									#18
	Re: Eras Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Rosacrux Wernazuma I can see your point about the conquest-era final point, but that would set us out of the "classical antiquity". But again, we are open on discussion here. My vote goes with the fall of Rome. Others?

Personally I like 500 AD because it's a nice round number but if you must have a specific point in real history, I think (apart from the fall of Rome, which is nice too) 630 AD would be a nice year. The Muslim Arabs were really a Medieval civilization, they don't fit in the Ancient age. Their conquests directly or indirectly affacted almost all of Eurasia and Africa, so taking the starting point of their conquests (630 AD) as the starting point of Medieval times (and thus the endpoint of this mod) would be fitting. Also, it was in this year that Khavad II died, which plunged Sassanid Persia into anarchy. The dynasty managed to struggle on for another 10-20 years, devouring about a dozen different leaders and suffering from innumerable rebellions and indepence movements, but it was as good as lost in 630 already. Also, 630 AD is the year in which the Chinese started to invade Central Asia, something which also radically changed the geopolitical landscape of the eastern part of this modpack.

	04-02-2002 18:34									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I have edited my techtree post. It's easier on the eyes now!

BTW, I think that the Classical Age should come BEFORE the Iron Age. I (at least) se Classical as purely Greek...

Just my $0.02...

	04-02-2002 19:05									#20
	I am back! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey all!

Sorry for my absence in the past few days but I have experienced an accident (my computer went *KABOOM* because of some darn power ups and downs and I am still on the run to get the parts to assemble a new one - only my video card, my floppy drive and my sound card survived the blast) and I couldn't do any work at home - I couldn't even play civ3

So, I am still connecting from work and so I won't be online for most of the time.

So, on the subject. I think hetairoi22 that the Iron Age started off pretty early (like 1000 BC) in some parts of the ancient world, so we'd be in trouble if we were to put the classical age before it.

Usually - hence the Graeco-Roman references - the Classical age is thought to span beyond the ancient Greek world well into the Roman era.

Instead of "Classical" what could we use?

Also, since most of you seem to prefare the Arabic conquest end instead of the fall of Rome, it's ok with me.

What we have ready:

- Eras
Prehistoric
Bronze
Iron
Classical (?)

- Start: 3000 BC
- End: 630 AD

I am taking a closer look into hetairoi22's tech tree, to evaluate it. I'd be happy if you could do the same and propose changes/additions etc.

Till later

	04-02-2002 19:22									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Great ideas!

Let us think of what modern Civ 3 features that could be inserted into the ancient age.

Factory - Workshop
Hydro Plant - Water Mill
Mass Transit - Sewers
Recycling Plant - Dump

Leonardo - Archimedes
Magellan - The Odyssey

Intelligence Agency, Military Academy, Battlefield Medicine - same
Pentagon - House of Nobles
Air units - Long-range siege weapons? Birds? Balloons?
Nukes - Plague?
Space ship - Voyage to the New World?

Strategic resources:
Horses, Camels, Elephants, Timber, Copper, Tin, Iron, Shrine

We should have camel and elephant units!

	04-02-2002 19:34									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sorry 'bout the computer Rosacrux... Hope it works out alright!

Good ideas Optimizer!

We could also replace the improvements COMPETELY! Like start from scratch?

Hmm. Here's some ideas (mostly Greek, sorry ):

Scientific / Educational Improvements:
Academy (Institutians after Plato and his Academy .)Increases science

School (Scientific improvement in the Classical Age?)

Other:
Gymnasium (Greek schools for physical training)

Commercial:
Market (?) (Like market place. Come in the first age)

Market Place (?) (Improved Market. Comes later)

Acropolis (or Civic Center. Comes even later)

Forum (Latest commercial imp.)

Some Wonders:

Hanging Gardens
Parthenon
Pyramids
Pont du Gard
Forum Romanum

We would one Wonder whcih corresponds to each civ included in the mod.

I was searching on Google today for Inventions. THis is what I came up with. Take a look:

Chinese Inventions

Childrens Timeline (The first half should be a little interesting)

Enchantedlearning.com - Inventions

Museum of Ancient Inventions

Some more Chinese inventions

Last edited by hetairoi22 on 04-02-2002 at 19:42

	04-02-2002 19:51									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Optimizer Great ideas! Let us think of what modern Civ 3 features that could be inserted into the ancient age. Factory - Workshop Hydro Plant - Water Mill Mass Transit - Sewers Recycling Plant - Dump Leonardo - Archimedes Magellan - The Odyssey

Great ideas!

And one of my own:

Copernicus - Aristotle (or an other civ's scientist)

quote: Originally posted by Optimizer Intelligence Agency, Military Academy, Battlefield Medicine - same Pentagon - House of Nobles Air units - Long-range siege weapons? Birds? Balloons? Nukes - Plague? Space ship - Voyage to the New World? Strategic resources: Horses, Camels, Elephants, Timber, Copper, Tin, Iron, Shrine We should have camel and elephant units!

Yes we should!

IMHO I think that we should remove the Air Units... With Siege Engines we could just increase their range! Birds?? Hmm. Balloons. Did any of the ancient Mediteraenian / Middle Eastern cultures use those? I don't know... They could perhaps be on a long branch of the techtree which wouldn't be used for advancing to the next age... so you could choose them if you had a lot of science... Comments anyone?

Space ship = Voyage? How would you do that. It would be alittle wierd being sent to the Space ship screen, would it not? It could be used if you would overlook that screen of course... Comments?

PS: I like your other ideas a lot!

	04-02-2002 20:00									#24
	Great ideas! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

...but this project seems getting bigger and bigger with every post

Actually, a total rework of

- Units
- Tech tree
- wonders
- resources

seems to be "ek ton on ouk anev" (does anyone knows Greek here? ) for an ancient Modpack.

As for resources goes, I have thought it over (eventhough I should re-think it taking the units-techs into account) but I was pretty keen on those:

- Marble
- Horses
- Wood (timber)
- Tin
- Copper
- Iron
- Elephants (but... only for a single unit? OK, maybe two if we go for the "elephants"-"war elephants" distinction).
...and?

Dunno. Shrine doesn't look good to me (in what way is that a resource?) but there are also many others we could incorporate. OK, let's work resources

	04-02-2002 21:32									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Camels: Allow

Light Cameleers, Camel Riders, Heavy Cameleers

They could be "wheeled" (as set in the Civ3Edit) so that they wouldn't move in mountains / jungle, but they could have better defense (maybe attack?) than cavalry.

And Elephants, War Elephants, Armored War Elephants

Slower than camels and horses?

Just some thoughts...

	04-02-2002 22:00									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hers's some info that you may find useful in setting up units/tech tree/civilizations. (Used in CTP2 Cradle Mod) - at least it might provide useful for filling in the areas that have not been developed in this Mod.

Good Luck

Attachment: ancient.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	05-02-2002 20:57									#27
	Let's see... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

OK, I have fooled around a bit with the unit list by Hetairoi and came up with some additions, changes to the original etc. Not including the prerequisites, technologies or resources yet, we should polish the statistics and the actual list first, and then go into the details.

Here they are so we can discuss those. There is a certain lack of late-game super units (like Armor, Mech. Infantry, mod. Armor etc. in the basic Civ3 game) and I don’t know if this is bad for the game balance… I need some feedback. Also, I have placed the units in their respective upgrade lines, NOT taking into account (yet) the special units of each civ.

So, here we go:

Units

- Tribal Warrior 1/1/1 --> Short Swordsmen 3/2/1 --> Armoured Sw/men 5/3/2
- Spearmen 1/2/1 --> Long Spearmen 2/4/1 --> Phalanx 3/6/1 --> ?
- Scout Cavalry 1/1/3 --> Light Cav. 2/1/3 --> Heavy Cav. 6/2/3 --> Cataphracts 8/4/3
- Chariot 2/1/2 --> Scythed Chariot 4/1/2 --> Heavy Chariot 6/1/3
- Elephants 3/1/2 --> War Elephants 5/2/2 --> armoured war eles. 7/4/2
- Bowmen 2/1/1 --> Archers 3/1/1 --> Composite Archers 4/1/2
- Horse archers 3/1/2 --> Skythian Archers 4/1/3 --> ?
Javelin throwers 2/1/2 --> Peltastes 4/1/2 --> ?


Bombard units
Well… can we add the Ram as a bombard unit? Dunno, we surely change the whole concept here (adding for instance Siege Tower and/or Hellepolis is also a leap in the concept of “bombard unit”). Dunno… any thoughts? What about the statistics? A little more balanced than the original by Hetairoi22?

Ram
Scorpion/Ballista --> Armoured Scorpion/Ballista
Catapult --> Mangonel --> Onager
Siege Tower (tr. 1 inf.) --> Hellepolis (tr. 1 inf.)

Straw Boat 0/0/2
Sail (tr. 1 unit) 0/1/3
Pentekonter (tr. 2 unit) 1/1/4
Bireme (tr. 1 units) 2/2/5
Trireme (tr. 1 units) 4/2/6
Quinquireme (tr. 3 units) 6/3/8
Heavy war galley (tr. 1 unit) 7/3/10(2/1/1)
Dromon (tr. 3 units) 9/4/12, (4/1/1)
Fireship 6/2/8, (7/1/1)
Caravel (tr. 6 units) 4/2/12


Resources

OK, I guess we can stick to the luxuries the game already has (no need for them to change) and replace the in-game strategic resources with those :

Wood
Marble
Copper
Cloth
Horses
Iron
Elephants
Tin

Didn’t include Camels because I don’t think Camels would be neither accurate (most civs of the modpack never used them anyway) or distinctive from their horse/elephant counterparts, but I am open on discussion on this (as on everything).

Can we add more than 8 resources? How many is the limit? DAMMIT, I DON’T HAVE ACCES TO THE GAME RIGHT NOW, SO I CAN’T CHECK ANY IN-GAME FACT. If yes, what resources would you add?

Hexagonian

Thanks, I have taken a look in it and I've found some very interesting additions for us to work with. Too bad it spans beyond the era we are focusing... but it can help in our mod too

Last edited by Rosacrux on 05-02-2002 at 21:06

	05-02-2002 21:47									#28
	Ancient but not medieval? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I created a civ2 anceint to medi-eval scenario, modifying the entire game, I have alot of my notes at hand and am interested in joining the entaurage of folks doing this

The biggest problem I cam across was the lack of techs allowable but I was attampting to go from the very begginnings right up until the invention of gunpowder making the Knight obsolete. (in western society that is)

Some of my notes on techs might help out...

p.s. the game started with 4 cavemen(settlers) even though your first town cannot produce anything but Neanderthals until the first discovery, Neanderathals were basic combat troops.

Flint Axe: cavemen(settlers)
Fire: flint axe
Stone Working: flint axe
Elders: fire local tavern(library)
Spear: Fire & flint axe spearmen (troop) Cheiftains Hut (barracks)
Tool Age: spear & stone working cavemen
The Wheel: stone working
Metal working: tool age & elders
Bareback Riding: tool age horses

allthough I would add in a tech to allow the horse to be discovered before having a tech to actually ride the horses

Pottery: tool age & Basket Weavinggranary
Wood working: metal working
Farming: wood working & elders farmland
Archery: wood working archer
Bronze working: pottery & metal working Bronze AGE
Mysticism: Farming shrine(temple)
The Stockade: Archery & Farming
Basket Weaving: The Stockade & Pottery
Collar & Hub: Bronze Working & The Wheel Trade Carts
Ceremonial Burial: Mysticism & Bronze working temple (church)
Flaxen: Basket Weaving
Horse Drawn: Bareback riding & Collar & Hub chariot
Leather: Farming & Bronze working
Monarchy: Ceremonial Burial & The stockade monarchy(gov)
Heirachy: Ceremonial Burial & Elders
Trade: Collar & Hub & Basket Weaving
Currency: Trade & Monarchy market place
Geriarchy: Heirarchy & Monarchygeriarchy(gov)
Rope: Flaxen & Heirachy explorer
The Warrior: Leather & The Spear The Warrior
Phalanx: The Warrior & Bronze working phalanx

Theres Page one of my notes, when I get online next I'll type in the next page, and maybe when the editor and game is more complete, I'll redo my scenario and post it here, Hope this helps for now

	05-02-2002 22:03									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

wow Rosacrux! nice list!

I agree with your changes. Actually I made the units list a few months back so I didn't bother to balance them etc. I just had some spare time and made up some ideas.

On resources

What about a chemicals resource required for Fireship? Like sulphur or something?

I must admit a kinda agree with your choice of removing the camels ... though I kinda liked the idea from the start ... I thought that they could be used for variety, You know, give 'em different abilities etc... OTOH it would maybe be to much...

Could you tell me some of the ideas from Hexagonian's zip? I couldn't open the acrobat thingie...

Actually the "cloth" resource isn't really realistic, is it (I know, I know, I made it, but ). I later found out that sails were made of Hemp, which could replace the Cloth.

Some luxury ideas (if you deside to replace some of the old ones):
Linen (early cloth. Replace silk?)
Gold could be a luxury instead of a bonus tile...
Pottery ? could come visible with the "Pottery" tech...

A strat. resource could be stone, used to build large buildings? Walls, Palace, Fortresses ?

Just some random ideas...


On siege craft

I gave the Siege Towers a bombard value because they were sometimes armed with spearthrowers and catapult to throw over the wall. I though of them mainly for a protective unit for light infantry units. Place them on the same square and the tower would take the damage...

H22

Last edited by hetairoi22 on 05-02-2002 at 22:17

	05-02-2002 22:21									#30
	Re: Ancient but not medieval? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Bane Star I created a civ2 anceint to medi-eval scenario, modifying the entire game, I have alot of my notes at hand and am interested in joining the entaurage of folks doing this The biggest problem I cam across was the lack of techs allowable but I was attampting to go from the very begginnings right up until the invention of gunpowder making the Knight obsolete. (in western society that is) Some of my notes on techs might help out... p.s. the game started with 4 cavemen(settlers) even though your first town cannot produce anything but Neanderthals until the first discovery, Neanderathals were basic combat troops. Flint Axe: cavemen(settlers) Fire: flint axe Stone Working: flint axe Elders: fire local tavern(library) Spear: Fire & flint axe spearmen (troop) Cheiftains Hut (barracks) Tool Age: spear & stone working cavemen The Wheel: stone working Metal working: tool age & elders Bareback Riding: tool age horses allthough I would add in a tech to allow the horse to be discovered before having a tech to actually ride the horses Pottery: tool age & Basket Weavinggranary Wood working: metal working Farming: wood working & elders farmland Archery: wood working archer Bronze working: pottery & metal working Bronze AGE Mysticism: Farming shrine(temple) The Stockade: Archery & Farming Basket Weaving: The Stockade & Pottery Collar & Hub: Bronze Working & The Wheel Trade Carts Ceremonial Burial: Mysticism & Bronze working temple (church) Flaxen: Basket Weaving Horse Drawn: Bareback riding & Collar & Hub chariot Leather: Farming & Bronze working Monarchy: Ceremonial Burial & The stockade monarchy(gov) Heirachy: Ceremonial Burial & Elders Trade: Collar & Hub & Basket Weaving Currency: Trade & Monarchy market place Geriarchy: Heirarchy & Monarchygeriarchy(gov) Rope: Flaxen & Heirachy explorer The Warrior: Leather & The Spear The Warrior Phalanx: The Warrior & Bronze working phalanx Theres Page one of my notes, when I get online next I'll type in the next page, and maybe when the editor and game is more complete, I'll redo my scenario and post it here, Hope this helps for now

That's a good list Bane! I *think* it starts a little early for this mod. Not 100% sure what Rosacrux wants... Good ideas though! Looking forward to your next page!

I have some questions:
What's the Stockade?
What does The Warrior represent?
What is Geriachy?
What is Flaxen (I'm sure I should know this, but I live in Denmark and my English is degradeing day be day... )

Good work!