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Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS
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Been making my way though a backlog of games and found another gem. Disciples II is a TBS but one that unabashedly embraces uber-stacks. You have a similar company construction mechanism, a la Kohan, but the number of elements is capped based on the leader in the party (the more powerful they are, the less units you can carry). Your guys actually gain experience as well, which is where the city improvement comes in. Which buildings you construct determine what your units morph into once they've leveled. There is also some tactical combat akin to HOMM, but it's pretty limited because of reduced unit count and no movement. It's also pretty hard. It took me some time to beat the first mission, but to its credit, I enjoyed replaying it with different tactics and leaders.
Check it out!
Jeff
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jackshot
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I picked it up a couple of days ago and can't stop playing it.
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Pembleton
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Cyberspace
Apr 1999
time: 23:17
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Well I had a brief initial interest in the game but it faded quickly. I won't go into the details because I've already explained at length in the Strategy First forum.
On the other hand, the vast majority of the people who have played it love it, for what it's worth. I'm one of the small minority who is disappointed.
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:17
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I've been playing it the past day or so and am now restarting the first mission as I realized a number of things I was doing wrong. While it's too early to make final comments, I will say that I am enjoying the graphics and overall style of the game immensely. I also LOVE that (contrary to HoMM) since your number of units is so small and each plays such an important role that you simply can't afford to be foolish with your battles. So far at least, there seems to be a whole lot more strategy in this game, at least in a sort of 'chess like' way ... and I really, really like that.
The pace seems more deliberate that that in HoMM, but that could well be because I am just learning the game (never played D1). Perhaps the best thing I can say about it as that contrary to other games I have been playing lately, this one had me glued to my seat for about one continuous 3-hour stretch last night. In other words, it has that 'just one more turn' feeling that Civ3 certainly lacks.
If the gameplay pans out, combined with the awesome style overall, this game could really prove to be one of my favorites. And I look forward to going back and playing the saga from the other 3 perspectives. I'm playing as Empire on my first run.
By the way, I haven't noticed any bugs or strange slow downs or anything. Oh, I'm sure there will be some, but to have NONE after a few hours of focussed play is quite a nice change from other developers that think releasing $50 betas is standard practice.
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
I also LOVE that (contrary to HoMM) since your number of units is so small and each plays such an important role that you simply can't afford to be foolish with your battles. |
That's true. Still, since your units only gain experience from the bad old D&D way - from battles - you want to fight as many battles as you can.
quote:
Originally posted by yin26
So far at least, there seems to be a whole lot more strategy in this game, at least in a sort of 'chess like' way ... and I really, really like that. |
Not really.
***SPOILER WARNING***
I am speaking only from Diciples experience. The easiest way to win is to form a hammer group. Find the best character for your faction, then form a group with that. In the case of Empire (humans) this is the Archmage, so you form a group with the Archmage with some spellcasters in the back and fighters in the front. Another thing you'll need is the improvement that lets you heal in a town. So build that the first turn. And you're set.
Once you have a battlegroup, send the party out and kill something they can handle, if this involves capturing a town, so much the better. When a unit die in the process don't worry about it as long as you can win the battle. You can pay to have it revived in a town.
Once you capture a town, consider putting in some appropiate defense units. Upgrade a town if you have the spare cash.
Wait for your group to heal. Capture next town or kill next group of monsters. Repeat.
*** END OF SPOILER ***
quote:
Originally posted by yin26
The pace seems more deliberate that that in HoMM, but that could well be because I am just learning the game (never played D1). |
The AI is really stupid. Your opponent - if you're Empire then it's propably the demons, whatever they're called - always start a scenario with huge amount more stuff than you do. I always dislike games with such a design, since it shows only laziness on the side of the developer.
What's worse, when you get to play the demons the humans have a lot more stuff than you this time around. Just a little contradiction in there somewhere 
quote:
Originally posted by yin26
Perhaps the best thing I can say about it as that contrary to other games I have been playing lately, this one had me glued to my seat for about one continuous 3-hour stretch last night. In other words, it has that 'just one more turn' feeling that Civ3 certainly lacks. |
Granted, this is the case in the beginning. After you finish a couple more scenarios the game becomes a drag. All scenarios are MOTS (more of the same). What's worse is you got to grind through - literally - stack upon enemy stack. What's fun in the beginning becomes completely boring  
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SixArmedMan
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Toronto, Canada.
Jan 1970
time: 00:17
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It has an editor which lets you edit events for your scenarios!
Scenarios??? Events???? Wha'????
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Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS
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"The AI is really stupid. "
You can definitely trick the AI to bounce between two cities by defending one and not defending the other, then reverse. I'm still playing the second mission, which is getting pretty frustrating. Not only is it like a 8 hour affair (unless I'm doing something wrong, which I may be), but I just ran into the undead faction, who are invulnerable to my attacks! I really wish there was a list of the objectives required to win the game, since the 'briefing' is really more of a movie than anything else.
My favorite Empire pack was the knightish leader, with two archers and a squire. The multiple attack spellcasters were neat, but it seems really important against higher level enemies to be able to destroy the ranged units first. Since then, archers (and all their flavors) are my favorite units.
Jeff
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Urban Ranger
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Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS
"The AI is really stupid. "
You can definitely trick the AI to bounce between two cities by defending one and not defending the other, then reverse. |
I have seen other, even stupider things. For example, the computer players have a tendency to attack netural monsters. I don't know if there are any in D2, but there are many of them in the original, blocking roads or guarding treasures.
Anyway, the CPs tend to send waves after waves of stacks to take on these neutral monsters, even if they keep getting slaughtered.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS
I'm still playing the second mission, which is getting pretty frustrating. Not only is it like a 8 hour affair (unless I'm doing something wrong, which I may be), but I just ran into the undead faction, who are invulnerable to my attacks! |
How so? the undeads weren't anything special as far as I can tell. The werewolf unit, IIRC, is invulnerable to physical attacks. Yet another good reason to use the Archmage.  Besides, you want a leader who can use the many artifacts that are lying around.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS
I really wish there was a list of the objectives required to win the game, since the 'briefing' is really more of a movie than anything else. |
Usually, the objective is to wipe out the other side. You can't go wrong with that  Seriously, usually it's either convert a certain percentage of the land or to capture a certain town. I think there's a menu option that tells you what the objective is.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS
My favorite Empire pack was the knightish leader, with two archers and a squire. The multiple attack spellcasters were neat, but it seems really important against higher level enemies to be able to destroy the ranged units first. Since then, archers (and all their flavors) are my favorite units. |
Archers are good against spellcasters, but my experience is you don't need more than one. I use my archers against enemy archers to preserve my own spellcasters. Enemy spellcasters can usually be taken out by your spellcasters since they are low on hit points. Also, since the Werewolf unit is immune to physical damages you will need magic - and lots of it - against the undeads.
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jackshot
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I've been impressed with the units, everything is useful. The scripting language is interesting, maybe still a bit primitive but a big change from D1. Another change from D1 is allowing the units to advance past their max upgrade, it works well and cuts down on all the creature swapping you had to do in the first version. You now want to keep the stack together.
I'm knee deep into the undead saga; I've got a Nosferatu with a necromancer, a deathdragon, and a dark lord - I rack up 150+ HP on each square on the board every turn, not to mention the dark lord who whacks some front row big guy for another 100. Of course bring death immunity to the party and watch my guys all run away... 
I think they have a winner here. The biggest complaints I've heard so far center around the limited nature of the system, but IMO the simplicity is deceiving. Under the hood, the creature/leaders all seem modeled well and advance well, and the way all the elements (spells, weapons/attack, combined arms) so easily add up to a neat system - that doesn't make you go through drivers ed first - is no mean feat.
They are definitely trying for the TBS/RPG hybrid, some of the little scripted events look a lot like something from Bioware if you squint and let your cat distract you while they happen.
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:17
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I just completed my first quest (leaving the saga for later). Some things I learned is that I needed to power up ONE group, plants rods ASAP, and actively seek the enemy's power stack early (and it seems the comp is not as good at doing the above, so you have an advantage early). I had the enemy hemmed in (on his very doorstep) within some 20 turns, after which I just powered up a bit more before finishing him off. Call it a TBS rush. 
Still, I find the pacing to be a challenge, as has already been pointed out. You really need to settle in for a good, long haul if you want to complete anything in one sitting. The thing that makes it worth it, though, are the wonderful production values and some solid strategy elements. For example, do you try to pick off the enemy group on its way to sell some treasure (and thereby really hamper his ability to produce more units) or do you retreat back, power up and not risk losing your best units?
Lots of little decisions like that keeping you on your toes. I noticed they even tried to keep the game somewhat interesting by having pirates show up. While that was a nice touch the first few times (since I wanted to bring over a spy across the map but lost him to pirates), it really doesn't add too much of a meaningful challenge and only serves to draw out the inevitable. Of course, my game was a bit lopsided, so I can see how these neutral bands can really throw a wrench in the works.
Man, the graphics are just awesome! That's not what a strategy game should be based on, of course, but when I saw my stone golem for the first time, I really felt that I *earned* seeing him in his brutal splendor.
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Pembleton
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Cyberspace
Apr 1999
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
I just completed my first quest (leaving the saga for later). Some things I learned is that I needed to power up ONE group, plants rods ASAP, and actively seek the enemy's power stack early (and it seems the comp is not as good at doing the above, so you have an advantage early).
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One group: something that is still *behind* HOMM in gameplay "technology". From what I understand, and it makes sense from the design, HOMM4 will no longer feature the "superhero" or in D2, "superparty" strategy. From 1 to 3, the general strategy 95% of the time was to produce one superhero and the other heroes were defenders/errand runners.
Rods: it depends on the locations of the mines and if it's worth spending 450 gold early (300 for unit + 150 for rod) or to wait 2-3 turns to get the mine "indirectly". In one game there was a town right above my capital that I didn't take right away in my first game. Instead, I planted a rod south of my capital immediately (well it took a day's worth of movement).
In the second, by accident I decided to clear the path to the town north of the capital first, and noticed that the spread of "control" from my capital increased much faster, and the mine to the south was under the capital's influence in about a day anyway, thus saving 450 gold. You get +50 gold per day from a mine, so in essence, you "lose" 350 gold by not waiting the 2 days.
If the town to the north isn't taken, it took much longer to have the mine to the south under control. I noticed this, because I also tried to take a different mine farther to the east first to see what effect that would have on the early game.
I'm still not sure how this functions precisely in how the computer calculates rate of player control, but I've stopped playing the game, so I don't think I will be investigating the matter any further.
As a further side note, in my trips to the SF forum, and elsewhere, I have heard absolutely no mention of any bugs or crashes so far. SF decided to delay the game a *long* time, as I believe it was supposed to be released sometime last summer, and that has paid off (hello, Firaxis?). Of course, my issues with the game are very specific and detailed, and I won't go into them here.
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02-02-2002 23:42
or 'less Culture'; instead, the question is: What Culture does your nation have?)
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