05-02-2002 06:37									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune O no, it isnīt. Brezinski (Carterīs security advisor) bragged about that the CIA livened things up in Afghanistan even before the Soviet intervention. They wanted to lure the Soviets into a military adventure, so they armed all kinds of misfits, including the guys that later became the Taliban.

How long ago was this? 15 years? 20? Next you'll be complaining about how we armed the Chinese during World War II.

	05-02-2002 06:38									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Mhm.And who is going to pay for it in the end?

An increased economy will result in more taxes being paid - because more money is being made. That is how it will be paid for.

	05-02-2002 06:41									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit I'm not saying that they are out to get you, but if they're a peace-loving liberal democracy, I'm the King of f***ing England.

Whatever they are, itīs not my problem. Thatīs the meaning of 'self-government', after all.
***
And donīt tell me Iran is going to start a war any time soon. As a threat to international safety, the US outclasses Iran by a wide margin.

	05-02-2002 06:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Whatever they are, itīs not my problem. Thatīs the meaning of 'self-government', after all. *** And donīt tell me Iran is going to start a war any time soon. As a threat to international safety, the US outclasses Iran by a wide margin.

Define, please, safety.

	05-02-2002 06:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit I want to see the connection between the Mujaheddin and the Taliban. To the best of my knowledge, the Taliban was from Pakistan, and they came after the end of the Soviet involvement.

The connection is the Pakistan secret service, which is a department of the CIA for all practical purposes, and you know it.

	05-02-2002 06:44									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune The connection is the Pakistan secret service, which is a department of the CIA for all practical purposes, and you know it.

This makes irrelevant your earlier comment about whatshisname and the luring the Soviets and all that. Make up your mind.

	05-02-2002 06:44									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit An increased economy will result in more taxes being paid - because more money is being made. That is how it will be paid for.

No money is being made with unproductive expenses. This theory of yours is called 'Voodoo economy'.

	05-02-2002 06:46									#38
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants How long ago was this? 15 years? 20? Next you'll be complaining about how we armed the Chinese during World War II.

Iīm not complaining. Iīm just saying the Taliban is your problem. They are a result of US policy, so donīt expect us Euros to pay through our noses for getting rid of them.

	05-02-2002 06:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Define, please, safety.

Define define.

	05-02-2002 06:48									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune No money is being made with unproductive expenses. This theory of yours is called 'Voodoo economy'.

This "theory of mine" was pioneered by John Maynard Keynes.

	05-02-2002 06:51									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Define define.

Define. To tell me the meaning of a certain word or term.
Now define safety.

	05-02-2002 06:53									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit This makes irrelevant your earlier comment about whatshisname and the luring the Soviets and all that. Make up your mind.

The CIA first sponsored Islamic Fanatics in general, and later the Pakistani secret service, itself CIA-sponsored, created the Taliban in particular. Like Frankensteinīs monster, they turned against their masters. But my sympathies with Frankenstein are limited.

	05-02-2002 06:55									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune The CIA first sponsored Islamic Fanatics in general, and later the Pakistani secret service, itself CIA-sponsored, created the Taliban in particular. Like Frankensteinīs monster, they turned against their masters. But my sympathies with Frankenstein are limited.

Now you're just bullshitting.

If the CIA supported the Mujaheddin to get at the Soviets, why did they supprot the Taliban? Evin the CIA needs motives.

	05-02-2002 06:59									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Define. To tell me the meaning of a certain word or term. Now define safety.

Main Entry: 1safe·ty
Pronunciation: 'sAf-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural safeties
Etymology: Middle English saufte, from Middle French sauveté, from Old French, from sauve, feminine of sauf safe
Date: 14th century
1 : the condition of being safe from undergoing or causing hurt, injury, or loss
(Webster)

I donīt expect any injury from Iran, but I fear loss of money (or even troops ) if the US succeed in drawing us into a needless and immoral conflict with a nation such as Iran.

	05-02-2002 07:01									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit If the CIA supported the Mujaheddin to get at the Soviets, why did they supprot the Taliban? Evin the CIA needs motives.

For quite the same reason they support the regimes in Kuwait and Saudi-Arabia (which are more oppressive than Iran, btw.).

	05-02-2002 07:03									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune For quite the same reason they support the regimes in Kuwait and Saudi-Arabia (which are more oppressive than Iran, btw.).

which is...

	05-02-2002 07:03									#47
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The Taliban are from the era after U.S. involvement in Afghanistan. Their (new) weapons came from Pakistan via China for the most part, though a large percentage of their arsenal was captured from the many armed parties in Afghanistan. The only somewhat shameful connection between the U.S. government and the Taliban was very early on (around 1996-97 IIRC) when the U.S. tried to negotiate with the Taliban who de facto controlled most of Afghanistan. Even this was done for practical and humanitarian reasons and never progressed nearly far enough for the U.S. to recognize the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan. As the Taliban made their true nature more known to the U.S. even these types of contacts were limited to arranging aid shipments.

	05-02-2002 07:10									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune 1 : the condition of being safe from undergoing or causing hurt, injury, or loss (Webster)

And let's count the number of people whom the US has helped achieve said condition:

-Western Europe
-Women of Afghanistan
-Its population
-People of Kuwait
-To some extent, Eastern Europe by ending the Cold War
-S. Korea
-Helped S. African blacks through sanctions

Infact, just about the only people whom they haven't

Now let's count the people from whom the US took this condition:

-Vietnam
-They've hurt some Iraqis and Cubans through sanctions
-Terrorists

In fact, the US is certainly less of a threat to world safety than your crappy country, what with the xenophobic right wing and all of Austria's past actions...

	05-02-2002 07:32									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Their (new) weapons came from Pakistan ...

True. But you forget the fact that the Pakis canīt cough without the US telling them to do so.

	05-02-2002 07:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit And let's count the number of people whom the US has helped achieve said condition: ... -Its population...

Does that include the approx. 2000 civilian bombing victims?

quote: -People of Kuwait

Who will be eternally thankful that their oppressive medieval Emir has been given back to them. Sure. When did you say will there be free elections in Kuwait? 2.250?

quote: In fact, the US is certainly less of a threat to world safety than your crappy country, what with the xenophobic right wing and all of Austria's past actions...

Talk about nationalist stereotypes! With people like you, it may be excusable if a few Austrians get xenophobic.

	05-02-2002 08:20									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit And let's count the number of people whom the US has helped achieve said condition: -Western Europe -Women of Afghanistan -Its population -People of Kuwait -To some extent, Eastern Europe by ending the Cold War -S. Korea -Helped S. African blacks through sanctions Infact, just about the only people whom they haven't Now let's count the people from whom the US took this condition: -Vietnam -They've hurt some Iraqis and Cubans through sanctions -Terrorists

several 100.000 (if not even 1.000.000) innocent civilians were killed by us troops and bombers after ww2. no other country started that many wars during this time. do you really think this is something us-people should be proud of? and actually most of the examples you mentioned are simply ridiculous (and wrong).

western europe: ok, I live in Berlin and I think I can mainly agree to this point. fair enough.

Women of Afghanistan: some of them were killed by US-bombs. the survivors were freed from a terror regime. most probably they now will be handed over to another terror regime. and if this one will be an US-friendly terror regime the US wonīt care about the afghan peopleīs safety at all. itīs always the same.

Its population: see above

People of Kuwait: yeah, the rich people of Kuwait maybe. those who have the cheap oil. you forget to mention the fact that the kuwait goverment surpressed the kuwait people. the gulf war didnīt change anything for their situation. this war had nothing to do with humanity or such. it was all about oil. Iīm surprised you donīt know this.

To some extent, Eastern Europe by ending the Cold War: from my knowledge Gorbatchov wasnīt a US-President or did I miss something?

S. Korea: cool! and what about N. Korea? and what do you think about the fact that right in the moment north and south korea coming closer and a reunification is in sight, president (by accident) bush is talking about declaring war to north korea?

Helped S. African blacks through sanctions: actually I donīt think youīre right here. but even if you are, when will they ever help the N. American blacks?

They've hurt some Iraqis (...) through sanctions: yep. and they killed 100.000 Iraqis....through bombs. now define safety.

quote: In fact, the US is certainly less of a threat to world safety than your crappy country, what with the xenophobic right wing and all of Austria's past actions...

no comment needed here

	05-02-2002 08:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by oedo several 100.000 (if not even 1.000.000) innocent civilians were killed by us troops and bombers after ww2. no other country started that many wars during this time. do you really think this is something us-people should be proud of? and actually most of the examples you mentioned are simply ridiculous (and wrong).

So now you're saying you'd rather NOT have the Americans in WWII.

quote: Women of Afghanistan: some of them were killed by US-bombs. the survivors were freed from a terror regime. most probably they now will be handed over to another terror regime. and if this one will be an US-friendly terror regime the US wonīt care about the afghan peopleīs safety at all. itīs always the same.

Um, I'm sorry, but if you were to ask a woman of Afghanistan, I think you'd get a different response.

quote: Its population:

From agression, invasion, and they kept the peace.

quote: People of Kuwait: yeah, the rich people of Kuwait maybe. those who have the cheap oil. you forget to mention the fact that the kuwait goverment surpressed the kuwait people. the gulf war didnīt change anything for their situation. this war had nothing to do with humanity or such. it was all about oil. Iīm surprised you donīt know this.

Rather be oppresed by Kuwaiti gov. than by Saddam.

quote: To some extent, Eastern Europe by ending the Cold War: from my knowledge Gorbatchov wasnīt a US-President or did I miss something?

If you're going to go say that the Americans didn't have a hand in ending Communism...

quote: S. Korea: cool! and what about N. Korea? and what do you think about the fact that right in the moment north and south korea coming closer and a reunification is in sight, president (by accident) bush is talking about declaring war to north korea?

If it weren't for the US, North Korea would be called Korea and South Korea would be called purged

quote: Helped S. African blacks through sanctions: actually I donīt think youīre right here. but even if you are, when will they ever help the N. American blacks?

Not helping someone is way differnet from hurting them. I'm not going to argue that slavery wasn't bad, but that iosn't exactly recent history...

quote: They've hurt some Iraqis (...) through sanctions: yep. and they killed 100.000 Iraqis....through bombs. now define safety.

I'm not sure about that number...?

quote: no comment needed here

Au contraire, I do believe there is. How does Austria answer for WW1? That makes it a threat to world peace! Let's accuse them of government conspiracy theories!

	05-02-2002 08:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Does that include the approx. 2000 civilian bombing victims?

Please explain.

quote: Who will be eternally thankful that their oppressive medieval Emir has been given back to them. Sure. When did you say will there be free elections in Kuwait? 2.250?

And the people of Iraq? No earlier than 2,251

quote: Talk about nationalist stereotypes! With people like you, it may be excusable if a few Austrians get xenophobic.

But if Austrians aren't responsible for their country's past actions, what makes you think that Americans are?

	05-02-2002 09:04									#54
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Come on, we are talking about present actions.

I hold no current Americans responsible for their aggression against Spain 100 years ago.

	05-02-2002 09:09									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit -They've hurt some Iraqis [snip] through sanctions

How have we hurt the Iraqis through sanctions? Especially when the people of northern Iraq who live under the same sactions live so much better than the people living under Sadam's direct rule.

	05-02-2002 09:12									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Come on, we are talking about present actions. I hold no current Americans responsible for their aggression against Spain 100 years ago.

In terms of present actions, the American gov. is keeping the world safe for their citizens, who voted them in. They are doing so by attacking people who threaten America. It won't cost 62 quintillion dollars 58 cents, or whatever that crackpot said it would cost. It will kill civilians, but not as many as would be killed were they not doing what they are now. Your exaggerated claims of 100,000 dead from bombings are, simply put, exaggerated.

	05-02-2002 09:14									#57
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How have we hurt the Iraqis through sanctions? Especially when the people of northern Iraq who live under the same sactions live so much better than the people living under Sadam's direct rule.

C'mon, appease the Eurocoms a little

Actually sanctions are probably not the best way of conducting foreign intervention; they worked in South Africa because South Africa was democratic - but otherwise, it's the people, not the dictators, who suffer.

	05-02-2002 09:16									#58
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quote: Women of Afghanistan: some of them were killed by US-bombs. the survivors were freed from a terror regime. most probably they now will be handed over to another terror regime. and if this one will be an US-friendly terror regime the US wonīt care about the afghan peopleīs safety at all. itīs always the same. Its population: see above

Now that's BS. We are actively trying to end the terror regimes in Afghanistan. We may not succeed, but we are better than you guys who haven't done anything and still do nitpicking on us.

quote: People of Kuwait: yeah, the rich people of Kuwait maybe. those who have the cheap oil. you forget to mention the fact that the kuwait goverment surpressed the kuwait people. the gulf war didnīt change anything for their situation. this war had nothing to do with humanity or such. it was all about oil. Iīm surprised you donīt know this.

Of course we don't want Saddam to become an oil monopoly, do you? To say Kuwaitis are not better off today than under Saddam only undermines your credibility.

quote: To some extent, Eastern Europe by ending the Cold War: from my knowledge Gorbatchov wasnīt a US-President or did I miss something?

Gorby is only half of the puzzle. Without us showing Soviets their limits East Berliners would still be enjoying long queues and Stasi informants.

quote: S. Korea: cool! and what about N. Korea? and what do you think about the fact that right in the moment north and south korea coming closer and a reunification is in sight, president (by accident) bush is talking about declaring war to north korea?

Before you BS about our involvement in Korea, why don't you ask what yin26 thinks. He is a South Korean after all and should be much much better informed than you.

quote: Helped S. African blacks through sanctions: actually I donīt think youīre right here. but even if you are, when will they ever help the N. American blacks?

By denying SA Apartheid regime our recognition, it will be only a matter of time before they cave in. Instead of accusing us of treating blacks badly, why don't you guys stop throwing firebombs into "Asylantenheime"? I would also like to see Asians being able to walk through Dresden without fearing being harassed by Skinheads.

As for our military killing people, we are only doing this kind of dirty work so you Euros can sit back and enjoy some peace.

	05-02-2002 09:22									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit In terms of present actions, the American gov. is keeping the world safe for their citizens, who voted them in.

Wonderful argument. Must remember that line for my next war of aggression. 'We are just keeping the world safe for our Military Domination'. Hilarious.

quote: They are doing so by attacking people who threaten America.

How is North Korea going to threaten America? Throw rice cakes?

quote: Your exaggerated claims of 100,000 dead from bombings are, simply put, exaggerated.

You are mixing it up. I claimed you killed 2.000 in Afghanistan. But their lives are worth less than Western lives, of course.

	05-02-2002 09:30									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune How is North Korea going to threaten America? Throw rice cakes?

Through it nuclear weapons research program, its long range missile tests, and its missile exports.