06-02-2002 22:45									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I too, like yin , zealot and others, consider SMAC & MoO2 as better TBS games when comes the time to enjoy the sole strategy gameplay compound. I've already said a few months ago how MoO3 has the best chances to revolutionize the genre next to Civ III, and I'm more confident than before - just to see how Quicksilver is dealing with the fans is the right thing ( what Firaxis never did ).

BUT where I must dissent is that... I still consider Civ III as a solid game with minor flaws as soon as I accept the lack of complexity. And it has a huge improvement over the named classics: much less over balancing at the advantage of the player in the ending part of the game. It's still somewhat tedious, but next to SMAC where Fusion Power+choppers+Transcend specialists gives an incredible exponential over power to the player, in Civ III we must stay alert with the lack of easy advantages to use.

	07-02-2002 00:14									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Bilas Heh.... Mark you know you were talking about him... as well as others... you quoted him for christ sake!

quoting someone doesnt mean that you disagree with him...

	07-02-2002 02:19									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

the reason ppl are so pissed with civ3 is not because it is so bad (though it is a meagre attempt at a stratagy game when compared to Europa Universalis). The reason we are all pissed is because it got our hopes up about being the modern version of Civ2, designed with the new comuter tech capabilities we didnt have in 1995, with better interation with the fan through the net. Civ3 by another name would have been accepted - never a classic. but for what we expect from a Civilization game, civ3 is very poor.

	07-02-2002 03:57									#34
	I especially liked the one... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

... That recommended going back to the classic MOO II! Talk about a sequel that blasted on the web. I had to stop surfing because the vitriol was so bad it was actually interfering with my ability to actually enjoy the game.

And the reviewers were obviously not payed enough when it was released. To this day I believe it would universally win the 'worst strategy sequel of all time award.'

I liked it, though I play more games of MOO than MOOII these days.

I also like the fact that Yin is quoting people who will be sure to blast MOOIII as soon as its released.

	07-02-2002 04:54									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by MarkG why do some people feel cheated though even if they played the game for a month?

In your opinion, I would get my value from a book merely by being able to read it? In other words, all books are equal, provided all the pages are there.

	07-02-2002 05:20									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: In your opinion, I would get my value from a book merely by being able to read it? In other words, all books are equal, provided all the pages are there.

Yes, you would get value from it. If you buy something, and it does what it says it will (in the case of a book, have words on the pages for you to read), then you've gotten value for your money - you haven't been cheated.

Of course, this doesn't mean all books are equal, some are better value than others.

	07-02-2002 05:24									#37
	Put an end to popups!

How is this thread different from all those other threads in the same vein? Repeated crits of the same points again and again and again...how worthwhile...

	07-02-2002 05:31									#38
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Contrary to how I am often pigeon-holed, I actually think that Civ3 can still be made into quite a good game. First will come the x-pack, which I won't buy because I refuse to buy the basic game. Then will come what will finally be considered the complete game with the Gold Edition.

My contention is that if the folks at Firaxis don't stare at the fluffy, b.s. reviews and comments by people who don't even understand the game and, instead, take the admittedly much more difficult route of seeking criticism: Then we might well see a Civ3 worth playing for a good long time to come.

However, to this point, Firaxis has showed very little interest in criticism. Therefore, I generally feel that even the Gold Edition will be a pile of garbage.

Too bad all you Yin-haters out there will have to wait for the Gold Edition before I decide whether to move on or not.

	07-02-2002 06:05									#39
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quote: Originally posted by OneInTen Yes, you would get value from it. If you buy something, and it does what it says it will (in the case of a book, have words on the pages for you to read), then you've gotten value for your money - you haven't been cheated. Of course, this doesn't mean all books are equal, some are better value than others.

If only there were more consumers like you. I'd go into business because it would be so damn easy!

	07-02-2002 07:05									#40
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by OneInTen Yes, you would get value from it. If you buy something, and it does what it says it will (in the case of a book, have words on the pages for you to read), then you've gotten value for your money - you haven't been cheated. Of course, this doesn't mean all books are equal, some are better value than others.

As you admit yourself in your last statement, there are, so to speak, returns on the investment of your entertainment dollar. And, keeping with the analogy, aggregate returns imply a standard expected return in the industry. So you may not be cheated in the sense of calling for restitution, but cheated in the sense of not receiving expected returns. Right?

	07-02-2002 07:21									#41
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quote: If only there were more consumers like you. I'd go into business because it would be so damn easy!

Hardly. I don't buy many things, mainly because I decide before spending my money whether I believe something will be worthwhile. If you spent your money on civ 3, it did what it said it was going to do, and you're still unsatisfied, I say cry me a river.

Geez, pirate the game first to see if it's worthwhile if you have to! Just don't whinge after you made a purchasing decision if that purchasing decision is in retrospect one you regret, not because the goods were defective, but your decision was defective.

quote: So you may not be cheated in the sense of calling for restitution, but cheated in the sense of not receiving expected returns. Right?

My expected return when buying a game is that it works as described. Therefore, if it works as desribed, I have not been cheated at all.

I don't buy games unless I have reasonable grounds to believe I'm going to like them. Apparently I'm alone in this.

And FWIW, I hardly think a months gameplay from a game is poor value. Even playing just 1 hour a night, that's 30 hours or so, which works out to be around $1.60US per hour. Much better value than going to the movies for example.

Games are disposable items, most people buy them, play them, and move on. Civ 3 fits that role nicely, why is that such a bad thing?

	07-02-2002 07:31									#42
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Well, in my case, I didn't buy the game and *still* feel disappointed. Any ideas? (...no, I didn't steal the game...I played it and returned it). On the financial side of things, though, I have nothing to complain about, of course, because I knew the game would bomb and didn't put my money into it.

	07-02-2002 07:38									#43
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As one of the people who started off singing the praises of Civ3 and later uninstalled it, I felt....almost compelled to respond here.

I would totally agree (and have said before) that it was worth the money spent, and, patches and re-work permitting, it has the ability to become a much better game than it currently is, BUT....

The fact is that the Civ-series was never about being a "disposable" type of computer game that "just" gave you your money's worth and a month or so of entertainment before you dropped it for the next cool thing to hit the shelves.

Were that the case, Civ2 and SMAC would have faded into obscurity a long time ago.

They have not because of the sheer replayability and the INSANE addictiveness of both titles.

Civ3 just doesn't have that. The conscious decision was made to turn it into a "light" version of the series, and in doing so, they took one of the longest-running, most popular, most often played series of computer games and turned it into a "flavor of the month" type game.

Nothing wrong with that per se....it's their game to do with what they will, and I'm sure they're laughing all the way to the bank, cos the fact is, it's sold a LOT of copies....It's just sad, in my eyes, to see such an outstanding line of games weakened so.



-=Vel=-

	07-02-2002 07:41									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is all she wrote.

(...Vel: Any hope that the Gold Edition might be good?)

	07-02-2002 07:50									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I always have hope, Brother Yin...always.

And, I can honestly say that despite my disappointment, I will line up to buy the Gold Edition when it's released (dropping another 40-50 bucks, or whatever it winds up being).

Among other things, I'm hoping that by the time the Gold Edition rolls around, the Editor will work at least as well as advertised on the LE box I have in front of me, some of the tedium will be gone from the mid- and late-game, and their (generally quite excellent) new game concepts are fleshed out and given the attention they truly deserve.

Oh, and I'm hoping that someone will teach the French-speaking folk of Infogreed that "Designer's Notes" and "A Note from the Designer" is not the same thing.

And....if it's not as good as I hope, I feel sure I'll get my money's worth out of the Gold Edition as well, and will work that much harder to ensure that my own tiny game company, and the product we produce, is the kind of game everyone here keeps looking for, but has not found yet....

-=Vel=-
PS: As to that! We've finished the design doc and architecture for the game and are beginning to piece together the first playable prototype! WhoooHoooo!

	07-02-2002 07:59									#46
	Tired of ads?

quote: Oh, and I'm hoping that someone will teach the French-speaking folk of Infogreed that "Designer's Notes" and "A Note from the Designer" is not the same thing.

LOL! Classic. Well, these days I find that I'm actually in the middle ground. The beta is worthless, the x-pack will only be an option for those with the beta, but the Gold Edition *might* be worthwhile considering that (assuming the editor --working one-- was released with the x-pack) the fans themselves might have fixed most of the problems.

Anyway, great news on your endeavor! How's the programming language learning going?

	07-02-2002 08:13									#47
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Thanks man....yeah....although the 'Designer's Notes' wasn't, in my mind a key feature in the LE, I have to admit when I saw the little leaflet that came with it I felt a bit like I had been subjected to the time honored "Bait and switch" tactic. Ah well....live and learn, I suppose....

As to that Gold Edition tho....I find myself ever-hopeful that it will be the release Civ3 should have been. I'm looking forward to trying it out, and perhaps, with a fully-functioning editor, getting back to work on the Mod-With-No-Name, which still has a great many ideas that can be implemented!

Things at Velocigames continue to amaze me. The crew that signed on with me is REALLY pumped up about the game, and that's such an addicting environment for me to be in the midst of. We hold frequent chat-room meetings (impractical for us to get together IRL, cos some of the folks who are helping me hail from as far off as the UK and Australia!). In all, we've got 8 Programmers, 2 Artists, and a variety of others helping out with getting the documentation put together professionally, fleshing out the history of Candle'Bre, backstory, family histories...all the good stuff!

The impromptu meetings are best of all though. We've started an informal policy of whenever anybody's lurking on the Candle'Bre forum, we'll sign into the chat room there and lurk while reading/posting. More than once, we've gathered half a dozen or so folks in the room (generally a mix of people active in the project and fans who just like to lurk and watch as it comes together). Every time we have a little impromptu meeting like that, I come away with at least one, and more often than not several new ideas. So far, the people watching the progress of the game have been every bit as jazzed up and excited about the project as the ones working on it....THAT's quite a rush! (and all that to say, if anyone reading here is interested in letting their voice be heard in terms of helping shape the flavor and design of the game in a real and meaningful way, don't hesitate to drop in on us! We're always in the market for new ideas, and LOVE to kick 'em around with people interested in the project!)

As to the learning of the programming end of it myself, I recently issued a "challenge" to our code team....some bits that may or may not ultimately get used in the game, but will be fun to play around with in the meantime....and, having recently purchased a "java for dummies" type book (spiffy CD included), I have decided to take up my own programming challenges as practice. LOL....now, I have no doubt in my mind that the real coders who do likewise will turn out MUCH better stuff than I do, but hey....I'm not afraid to get in there and give it a go!

And, btw Yin, your name came up in conversation at one of our meetings! The thinking is that if we can get your seal of approval on the game we release, then we're doing something way right....

-=Vel=-
(Velocigames)
The Renaissance Portal
* To get to Candle'Bre from the main page, click on the "discussion forums" link....you'll see it at the top o' the page!
{/shameless plug off!}

	07-02-2002 09:51									#48
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by yin26 However, to this point, Firaxis has showed very little interest in criticism.

of course you mean that "firaxis has not shown too much that they are interested in criticism"? cause i cant imagine how you could know what interests firaxis

so your assumptions about the future of civ3 are kind of baseless, dont you think?

	07-02-2002 10:25									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: And, btw Yin, your name came up in conversation at one of our meetings! The thinking is that if we can get your seal of approval on the game we release, then we're doing something way right....

LOL! I suppose it was something like: "And if that bastard Yin has anything good to say..." Well, it's all very exciting. I really do wish you the best of luck as I think you bring so much to the project!

Markos:

I'll forgive you since English is not your native language. When some says "X has shown no interest in Y," there is an implicit statement being made there. I'll let you figure it out.

	07-02-2002 10:55									#50
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 LOL! I suppose it was something like: "And if that bastard Yin has anything good to say..." Well, it's all very exciting. I really do wish you the best of luck as I think you bring so much to the project! Markos: I'll forgive you since English is not your native language. When some says "X has shown no interest in Y," there is an implicit statement being made there. I'll let you figure it out.

Well if you really want to be picky about grammar, it's supposed to be "...Firaxis has shown very little interest..."

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

	07-02-2002 11:00									#51
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Minor typo, which you'll note I fixed in the XY thing (miss that?). Meanwhile, Markos' massive troll goes nowhere...

	07-02-2002 11:09									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: The fact is that the Civ-series was never about being a "disposable" type of computer game that "just" gave you your money's worth and a month or so of entertainment before you dropped it for the next cool thing to hit the shelves.

I think the people here on these boards are in the minority of people who have played civ in this regard (this is from my own personal experience and from people I know IRL).

I could never really get into civ 2. It just didn't "grab me". SMAC I could at least see the potential of, and I probably would have played it heaps, if not for what was, to me, the inaccesably implemented sci-fi theme.

At least civ 3 was a game where I didn't feel like I was only loading it because I was supposed to like it. I actually played it because I wanted to and I enjoyed it.

I'm at the stage where I've had my fun and civ 3 takes a back seat and is nearly due to be cycled off my hard drive though I guess. Games do usually get at least one second run though.

I don't know, maybe you trying to explain to me why civ 3 had to be better than it is is pointless. I'll readily admit I don't get what you see in civ 2 or SMAC. You trying to explain it to me is probably akin to me trying to explain to a blind man what yellow is.

I like civ 3, but I didn't expect it to be great. I'm a fan of TBS, but I've never found one that's good enough to be "computer crack" or whatever people call it. It's kind of funny since I've mostly grown bored of all other genres that used to excite me (haven't picked up a new FPS in ages, I got Empire Earth anbd athough I can see it's an excellent game RTS just doesn't seem to do it for me anymore, etc). I think a really engaging TBS is what I really want, but I don't ever expect to find one, because I don't believe games can really be that good. Other people must have different standards or something, I don't know.

All in all, I'm struggling to understand what's wrong with a game being a throwaway entertainment item. I mean, if you like a movie, you're not going to watch it every day, you'll watch it a few times at first maybe and then every now and then. I treat games the same way ... play it through once or twice, and then pull it out every now and then if I like it.

Civ 3 lives up to that standard, so is it really a failure? It wasn't supposed to change my world, merely distract me from it for a few hours.

	07-02-2002 11:10									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Good idea. We can go there and say beware, Firaxis is a piece of crap without MarkG closing our threads.

I don't know about Firaxis, but the game is a piece of crap.

	07-02-2002 11:23									#54
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OneInTen: Have you tried Disciples 2? Not the end-all and be-all, but quite good if you don't mind scenarios lasting several hours. Overall, though, it oozes character.

	07-02-2002 11:33									#55
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I haven't seen disciples 2 yet in stores here in Australia, but I may check it out if and when it makes it here.

Frankly though, I think MOO3 holds the most hope, given that their IFP system, though I believe somewhat flawed in its implementation as described, is a huge step in the right direction.

Plus I hope it goes well for them because then they might make MOM2, and MOM is probably the game that's come closest to capturing my full attention.

	07-02-2002 13:20									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

F*uck, this is awful.

What the h*ll are you doin Yin? Why are you so committed to painting this game so negatively? Do you think Firaxis and Infogrames are listening to you anymore? Chr*st, I don't think Infogrames has any clue who any of us are. As for Firaxis, I think they are well past listening to you. And maybe well they should be. You don't build anything by trying to tear something else down.

Jimmytrick: I'm still here. I'm still playing. It's not a bad game. And it will be better, but not because of anything that rabid critics have to say.

God help us? We don't need that, we've got Yin. He can be more of a pestilence than God could ever devise (even when he's funny).

Salve

	07-02-2002 13:28									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by yin26 And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is all she wrote.

No Dad, the fat lady is only singing in your head. Have it looked at, it may go away.

Salve

	07-02-2002 13:46									#58
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If you really want to start another round, I'm ready. I thought you got past it a few days ago. The meds wear off?

By the way, for people who like to keep track of these things, here is another sterling example of how I am *not* attacking somebody until attacked. People like this joker above are a sterling example of what's wrong with society: I am criticising a game, a process, a company.

The best he can do? Personal attacks against me. It's a social disease, I tell you.

	07-02-2002 13:48									#59
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

No Yin. No meds involved.

But I thought you were past your mindless bashing of the game. Sorry if I was mistaken.

And ready any time you are. Dad.

Salve

	07-02-2002 13:51									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Read my edit above. If you are going to participate in a forum, learn some manners. Now go to your room without dinner.