08-02-2002 00:44									#91
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man The reason we are all pissed is because it got our hopes up about being the modern version of Civ2...for what we expect from a Civilization game, civ3 is very poor.

We????? WE????

Kindly speak for yourself. There is far too much "we" being tossed around by you grief players who have nothing better to do than try to gain the "right" to say to your chatroom buddies that "I singlehandedly torpedoed Civ3 and Firaxis!"

It's like tossing a stink bomb into a crowded theater and giggling as you run out the door. You are doing it simply because you can, because anybody can use the internet to say anything about anything, without consequences.

Having other things to do with my time, I don't come to this forum that often. But every time I'm here, it's the same people gnawing the same bone the same way. There's something very strange about that.

It's a computer game, people. If it's so important to you that the "defects" you imagine to be in it are consuming your every waking moment, then maybe it's time to seek help.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Hate Civ3? Don't play it.

And of course, when you guys finish developing your own computer games, instead of just rambling on about somebody else's, be sure to let me know so I can subject your work to a little gentle criticism...

	08-02-2002 01:50									#92
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'we' ment all the people (alot of ppl in fact) that had waited for a grand improvment on Civ2, which after 6 yrs starts to get old.

we got ****.

i dont play it. i am just here hoping they make it a proper Civ game.

	08-02-2002 01:54									#93
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man 'we' ment all the people (alot of ppl in fact) that had waited for a grand improvment on Civ2, which after 6 yrs starts to get old. we got ****. i dont play it. i am just here hoping they make it a proper Civ game.

And tell me exactly how you are helping to make a "proper Civ game". All your whining and complaining will only get you placed on ignore list. It has a negative effect. On everybody. You don't play it. You don't provide anything positve. No way that can be helpfull.

	08-02-2002 01:57									#94
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if us whiners are so bad, stop whining about us. you are just making the problem worse.

	08-02-2002 02:01									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat And then as soon as the programmers stopped posting, Activision officially abandoned the game, and said there would be no more patches, then Markos joined the ever-growing ranks of "CtP2-sucks" groupies.

yes, while at same time supporting the use(actually, direct copy) of such things as stacks, public works and slic in civ3....

	08-02-2002 02:06									#96
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man if us whiners are so bad, stop whining about us. you are just making the problem worse.

I honestly don't understand what you mean. This is a Civ3 site for Civ3 players. (You've already admitted you don't play) "We" don't mind honest criticism of the game. It's the repetiveness and the unfounded nature of most of the whiners "facts" that "we" object to.

You still didn't answer my question on how you are making the game better. I'll add a second one: how is calling you and people like you on the carpet to explain making things worse?

	08-02-2002 03:16									#97
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man if us whiners are so bad, stop whining about us. you are just making the problem worse.

Sometimes you critics don't leave anyone any choice. You jump into threads just so you can make some snide comment, or hurl an insult. Your comments appear everywhere, and frankly it gets rather tiresome. Why don't you just start your own thread and all of you can hang around bashing the game, and Firaxis, and leave everyone else alone?

If you have a beef with the game that's fine, and sometimes I even agree with you. But why does everyone need to know your opinions, all the time, every thread they go to? Does it accomplish anything? No. It only annoys the people that do enjoy the game, and though you may not like to admit it, there are a lot of them hanging around here.

	08-02-2002 04:06									#98
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i have learnt from life that the only way to make things better and to get wat you want is to make sure the ppl who can changes it here about it and listen.

this means ramming it down there throats till there sick of it, cos i seriously doubt they read the bad posts. they just wanna feel they made a game thats all nice and fluffy.


and i never said that people cant enjoy civ3, it just seems to me the majority of the people here dont. and that alota people. its like, i njoyed Cable Guy, and no one else did. some ppl can enjoy Civ3 for reasons i hate it.

and if all the bad negatives post bout civ3 so bad, make a new forerum: Civ3fluffy

	08-02-2002 04:21									#99
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man i have learnt from life that the only way to make things better and to get wat you want is to make sure the ppl who can changes it here about it and listen.

Correct... if they aren't aware of the "problem"...

quote: this means ramming it down there throats till there sick of it

In my 25 years in the business arena, I have learned that just the opposite is correct. If you piss people off, they are less likely to do what you want. A combination approach using information and logic (and a smile never hurts) is usually the most effective.

The only time it is correct to "ram it down their throats" is when nothing else works. At this point in time, there is evidence that they are working to solve the problems they can. So we are not yet at the point of no hope

	08-02-2002 04:27									#100
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it depends, profesional pissers off can get what they want cs they annoy the person so much that person just wants them to go away.



the amount of ppl i have appeased just to get rid of em

	08-02-2002 04:30									#101
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man i have learnt from life that the only way to make things better and to get wat you want is to make sure the ppl who can changes it here about it and listen. this means ramming it down there throats till there sick of it, cos i seriously doubt they read the bad posts. they just wanna feel they made a game thats all nice and fluffy.

Well that might work on other forums, but here they have an ignore list. And that attitude will just put your name on quite a number of them. So all you'd be doing would be flapping your lips in the wind. You should try that approach on some street corner somewhere and see how many people will actually pay attention to you. Not very many I'd wager.

quote: and i never said that people cant enjoy civ3, it just seems to me the majority of the people here dont. and that alota people.

Well sorry, but I've come to a different conclusion. And even most of the critics have the attitude that it's basically a good game that still needs work. And just for the record I happen to share that view. But at least I'm making the effort of trying to be constructive and helpful, instead of just trashing the game and Firaxis/Infogrames. And doing that sort of thing is bound to get you on their ignore list pretty damn quick.

	08-02-2002 04:40									#102
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man it depends, profesional pissers off can get what they want cs they annoy the person so much that person just wants them to go away.

People like that don't get very far with me I like to break them of that nasty habit. In most cases... I succeed. And when I don't, they still don't get what they want... Eventually they learn or lose

	08-02-2002 05:52									#103
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quote: and in the end you've practically destroyed your reputation(instead of civ3's sales numbers). soon we wont be saying "whiner" but "yiner"

Now THAT'S the spirit, Markos! You had me worried earlier with the slightly hurt response. Glad to know you can still troll with some dignity.

First, as regards my 'reputation,' I never came here to get a reputation, and I certainly won't leave if some people think my reputation is 'destroyed.' In fact, I find that entire line of reasoning to be very funny. I have been consistent from Day 1: I support the hell out of something when it appears that such support will make a difference, and then I criticise the hell out of something when it's being handled in the most inept manner. I've always been that way and always will be.

As to this whole 'whiners aren't helping anything' argument, we all know that's simply not true. Of course there are empty and mean whines that no doubt make it difficult for anybody at Firaxis to want to read and think about, but if you ask me:

When anybody from Firaxis pops onto the general forum here even for a moment and begins to read the mountains of criticism, even from people who initially supported the game but realized after more than 3 sessions that there are actually very serious problems...well, I can't help but think a dose of reality (yes, throw in the reader responses from Gamespot as opposed to the clueless 'professional' score) will make it VERY clear to the folks at Firaxis that the next patch or two will be critical.

Not nice additions. Not going the extra mile. CRITICAL to the game's success.

And frankly, if having a bunch of whiners here helps make that message clear, we are doing more to help Civ3 than entire fleets of blind fanboys who accept crap and, in fact, seemed to enjoy the flavor.

	08-02-2002 06:18									#104
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 And frankly, if having a bunch of whiners here helps make that message clear, we are doing more to help Civ3 than entire fleets of blind fanboys who accept crap and, in fact, seemed to enjoy the flavor.

You over estimate your influence on Firaxis...

	08-02-2002 06:21									#105
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So, more mod trolling? You guys in a league or something?

Did I say "my" influence? But, hey, if your argument is that Poly has no influence, I'm willing to buy that...

	08-02-2002 06:28									#106
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Did I say "my" influence?

But you did say "WE"...
And I seriously doubt that your "WE" is having ANY effect at all on what Firaxis is doing about Civ III

	08-02-2002 06:32									#107
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Then you are saying that Firaxis deliberately ignores criticism of the game, which, if true, means it is doomed. Hey, fine by me. I enjoy watching the spectacle either way.

	08-02-2002 06:39									#108
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From yin26's last long post:

"we all know"

There it is yet again! Bloody hell!

"mountains of criticism"

We all know [insert 5 paragraphs of sarcasm].

	08-02-2002 06:42									#109
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Yes, WE all DO know that if there were NO criticism of the game, the likelihood of it being patched in any significant way would be next to nil. This is common sense and you can't argue otherwise.

And WE also know that there IS a mountain of criticism regarding Civ3.

The above are simple truths.

See, you are confused. I never said "We all know the game sucks." Got the difference?

	08-02-2002 06:43									#110
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Then you are saying that Firaxis deliberately ignores criticism of the game,

I didn't say that... you did. I think that Firaxis has not ignored any of the concerns raised on these boards. I think they do ignore people who make personal attacks about them and their company...

There are some things that they will be able to "change"... and others, they won't be able to. By reading comments that they have made, I'm sure they are continuing to work to improve the game. I don't need them to respond personally to every little whine here to prove that they care or that they are in the process of doing something about it

	08-02-2002 06:45									#111
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Told.

	08-02-2002 06:46									#112
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How can you say Civ 3 is not successful? It has sold exceedingly well all over the world.

	08-02-2002 06:46									#113
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Ming: Thanks for repeating precisely what my post said. Bored today?

	08-02-2002 06:47									#114
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I didn't say Civ3 isn't commercially successful. I said it needs to be patched in some SIGNIFICANT ways if it is going to last past 2002.

	08-02-2002 06:49									#115
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Bored today?

uhhh... you are the one interpreting what other people are saying (and doing a bad job of it)... are you bored. Maybe you should load your pirate copy of Civ III again and play a game.

	08-02-2002 06:50									#116
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"Yes, WE all DO know that if there were NO criticism of the game, the likelihood of it being patched in any significant way would be next to nil. This is common sense and you can't argue otherwise. "

Bloody hell #2! If the above was what you had actually wrote then I probably wouldn't have argued with it. But that's NOT what you applied the "we all know" to!

You wrote: "As to this whole 'whiners aren't helping anything' argument, we all know that's simply not true."

I for one, agree that cirticism is helpfull... but most of what the self-proclaimed "critics" are spewing is better characterized as "whining."

Please, everybody, stop with the damned "we all knows", OK? The _only_ things they accomplish is:

1) Reaffirm the prejudices of those who already agree with you.
and
2) Tick me off.

Neither one is usefull.

	08-02-2002 06:54									#117
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Hey, it's not my problem how you mis-read perfectly clear English. Perhaps your problem stems from viewing 'whiners' in some odd category? To me, whiners are complainers. Some of them more helpful than others.

Work backwards from there to see the picture.

	08-02-2002 07:01									#118
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"And WE also know that there IS a mountain of criticism regarding Civ3.
The above are simple truths. "

Actually, I do think that "mountain of criticism" is debatable.
There's a mountain of something.... but _I_ think that the "something" is not "criticism" but rather "whining about the fact that Civ3 isn't simply an updated and expanded Civ2 or SMAC."

"See, you are confused. I never said "We all know the game sucks." Got the difference?"

_I'm_ confused? And when did I attribute that statement to you?

"Hey, it's not my problem how you mis-read perfectly clear English."

Please point out where I did so.

"To me, whiners are complainers."

So you make no distinction between them? We all know you should.

	08-02-2002 07:06									#119
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quote: Does anyone else remember Markos' unending support of CtP2 when it was released, defending Activision at every turn? And then as soon as the programmers stopped posting, Activision officially abandoned the game, and said there would be no more patches, then Markos joined the ever-growing ranks of "CtP2-sucks" groupies.

You mean he was supportive of the product until there was actually evidence that it wouldn't be improved?

Hmm, sounds strangely rational to me.

	08-02-2002 07:11									#120
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Tarquelne:

You seem like a reasonable guy. Part of the problem here is that the moment anybody criticises this game, they run the dangerous course of summarily being called a 'whiner.' Yes, I am well aware of the difference between those who go to great lengths to support their arguments and those who make pithy remarks seemingly just to stir up trouble. Yet, I have seen the broad 'whiner brush' paint both camps rather liberally.

Yet for the sake of your call for clarification, I will amend my post above by saying that I see "constructive and consistent" criticism to be good for Civ3. Now, to many people here, constructive and consistent are oxymorons...to which I would normally agree except to say that it is, therefore, Firaxis' job to keep us more informed as to what is going on.

Yet, they don't. Thus, the consistent complaint. And, therefore, the often mis-used term: "Whiner."