08-02-2002 08:24									#121
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

CRITICISM?

If Firaxis didn't charge me $44.95, plus $19.95 fort a strategy guide, I wouldn't complain.

If Firaxis was RESPONSIVE to the public, I would complain a lot less. But they remain smug, arrogant, and unresponsive.

If Firaxis didn't want criticism it should have told us there was no way to create scenarios in Civ III as there is in Civ II. What a rip-off that is!!

Firaxis also likely hires shills to defend their flawed product on the forums. Well, it isn't working. Most of us will be back playing Civ II by Summer, or earlier.

Put out a good product, and there will be no criticism.

Civ III

	08-02-2002 09:55									#122
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Encomium Most of us will be back playing Civ II by Summer, or earlier.

You go do that. Please. And take the ****ing horse you rode in on with you.

	08-02-2002 09:57									#123
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Now is the time when I praise the ignore feature.

Oh ignore
It's you I adore
Don't hit their butts
On their way out the door.

You're good for my blood pressure,
My nerves are now cool,
I don't have to read Ecomium
That's guy's a real tool.

WE ALL LOVE THE IGNORE FEATURE!

Oh, and welcome to the list, Andy.

	08-02-2002 10:36									#124
	Put an end to popups!

quote: You go do that. Please. And take the ****ing horse you rode in on with you.

Well, looking at the age of that f*cking horse, he rode on in on the same horse as you. So why don't you get on that f*cking horse, as well, and go along with him? Better yet, why don't you just ride off on that f*cking horse by yourself!? Don't worry, though, I won't even go into what you're going to do that poor horse once you're alone with it.

BtW, anybody at anytime is welcome to join in on a discussion...kind of just like what I did.

	08-02-2002 11:47									#125
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh yes, point to the amount of time someone's been on a forum, because that's obviously a good indicator of life the universe and everything.

Gee that Mark guy must always be right since he was the first here, huh?

	08-02-2002 12:42									#126
	Support Apolyton

Tarquelne,

I see that you specialise in absolutely pointless posts, so why don't you sit down and shut the **** up and the rest of us can get on with what the thread is about.

	08-02-2002 13:24									#127
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by OneInTen You go do that. Please. And take the ****ing horse you rode in on with you.

Good one!

	08-02-2002 15:44									#128
	About this "whiner" label. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Whiners complain about nothing, a splinter is the same as a broken arm to them. A Critic evaluates the good and the bad and sometimes he has to give a thumbs down. It's unfair to label someone a "whiner" if their criticism is justified.

Now I don't know where everyone fits on the love Civ III-hate Civ III line and I won't pretend to be able to read your mind and I don't do personal attacks...so I'll just be honest.

First, some background. I'm a God/Diety/El Supremo player in Civ/Civ2 and SMAC (or BRAC). I've paid and played Civ 3 for two-three weeks now.

It's not a lack of skill. I can handle AI cheating, adjusted to Culture and Resources (and can use them to my advantage now), and I accept defeat, flexibility is not the problem.

My point is pretty simple really - read through the criticism here...even the poll has people has 1 person feeling screwed for every happy 2 campers. If you added it those that felt the game was buggy or are still waiting for the big payoff then the fans that are thrilled with it are a minority.

It doesn't mean they are wrong but anyone that feels less than thrilled shouldn't have to apologize for it.

Yin got slammed for "we" statements. I think I'll be more conservative.

"Most" of us realize this isn't flawless software.
"Most" of us spent money on it.
"Most" of us know that Infogrames knew it was incomplete.
"Most" of us trusted them.
"Some" of us feel screwed because we did.

And even "Most" of us game veterans don't expect a perfect piece of software but don't expect real problems with it either.

Multiplayer/Editor
Believe it or not I don't care about these things.
I miss the little things - Wonder Movies (which SMAC had) and a much better interface (not the Visual Basic tiny button thing we have now).

A "few" (less than 50%) are thrilled with it. Good for you. Many of us might be thrilled with the finished game but that's not what we bought and expected. And for $50 deserved.

To be told to change things on my own is not a solution...it's the blame shifting attempt to weasel out of poor/no playtesting. And I seriously feel bad for some people here who had far worse game problems than mine or paid even more for the LE.

Different I can handle, hard I can adjust to, but I can't wait three minutes a turn. Are all the dozens of bug reports made up? And we could spend years questioning the wisdom of certain game design choices (notice my Civ 4 threads).

But "we" "whiners" feel screwed because we trusted the Sid Meier name and got a less than stellar production. If you love it, I'll say it again - good for you - but when others critize it ask yourself a question? Are the critics right?

Is 60% of the game good placement?
Is the game too linear?
Has it been streamlined too much?
Is the interface unattractive?
Are there lots of things you miss from Civ2 and SMAC?
Is the late game tedious?
Were obvious bugs and problems ignored to rush the game?
Did the patch fail to address most/all of the real problems?

Answer yes to any and Congradulations! You're a whiner too.

	08-02-2002 15:57									#129
	Re: About this "whiner" label. Increase the size of your Attachments

Is 60% of the game good placement? - yes
Is the game too linear? - no
Has it been streamlined too much? - yo/nes
Is the interface unattractive? yes
Are there lots of things you miss from Civ2 and SMAC? yes
Is the late game tedious? yes
Were obvious bugs and problems ignored to rush the game? yes
Did the patch fail to address most/all of the real problems? yes

quote: Answer yes to any and Congradulations! You're a whiner too.

No. Still playing the game. I just try to be honest.

	08-02-2002 16:20									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ironikinit Now is the time when I praise the ignore feature. Oh ignore It's you I adore Don't hit their butts On their way out the door. You're good for my blood pressure, My nerves are now cool, I don't have to read X That's guy's a real tool. WE ALL LOVE THE IGNORE FEATURE!

It's certainly getting to the point where that would be useful. Then the heavy critics can only see a forum full of bile and the happy Civvers will only see supportive posts. Everybody wins except the moderators who will still have to read it all

	08-02-2002 16:46									#131
	Re: About this "whiner" label. Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Roy H Smith My point is pretty simple really - read through the criticism here...even the poll has people has 1 person feeling screwed for every happy 2 campers. If you added it those that felt the game was buggy or are still waiting for the big payoff then the fans that are thrilled with it are a minority.

if that isnt an assumption, i dont know what is....

quote: A "few" (less than 50%) are thrilled with it.

1) perhaps i have a different understanding of english but "less than 50%" is not "few". "less than 50%" can be from "few" to "a large part" according to what exactly that "less than 50%" is(10%, 20%, 30%, 40%)
2) taking a fact(poll results) and then adding to it an assumption doesnt make a good argument imho

quote: To be told to change things on my own is not a solution...

it is, if you want a better game. those who followed this sollution are now enjoying a better game. people who will agree with you are left waiting for the next patch and post here in yet another whiners-fanboys thread. who's in a better position?

quote: Different I can handle, hard I can adjust to, but I can't wait three minutes a turn.

what kind of game have you've been playing? i've never had 3 minutes turns...

quote: If you love it, I'll say it again - good for you - but when others critize it ask yourself a question? Are the critics right?

not all things are black or white. not all things matter the same to all(example: you dont care about MP)

quote: Answer yes to any and Congradulations! You're a whiner too.

totally wrong definition!! it's one thing to criticise, to post your opinion. it's another to post it 30 times over and over again. THAT is a whiner...

	08-02-2002 16:53									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Cossack:

I've seen at least 2 other people now complain about overzelous use of "we"... and I see that _you_ didn't use it in your last post.... so maybe I do have a point, eh?

	08-02-2002 17:08									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MarkG yes, while at same time supporting the use(actually, direct copy) of such things as stacks, public works and slic in civ3....

Of course...

So let's work this backwards, to the game which actually has a chance of being the best.

Markos, what Civ3 features would you like to see in CtP2?

	08-02-2002 17:09									#134
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Now, to many people here, constructive and consistent are oxymorons...to which I would normally agree except to say that it is, therefore, Firaxis' job to keep us more informed as to what is going on. Yet, they don't. Thus, the consistent complaint. And, therefore, the often mis-used term: "Whiner."

when there is a set and announce policy of not announcing specific changes before a patch is ready to be released, as in our case, repeative posting of the same complaints/bug reports/etc DOES end up being whining no matter how constructive it might have been the first or the second time.

in our situation, firaxis' answer to complaints are patches. wait for the next patch, there is no need to repeat the same stuff over and over again. if the patch does not respond to your needs then simply walk away. you certainly have better things to do than wait for answers that arent coming....

	08-02-2002 17:13									#135
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

"It's unfair to label someone a "whiner" if their criticism is justified."

I agree with that... mostly. Or maybe I just want to be a little more specific. I think someone's a whiner if their criticism is out of proportion to the flaw(s) being criticized. Too many people seem far too _definite_ about Civ3's flaws - declaiming in very, very strong and absolute terms "features" that, as far as I can see, aren't disliked by most (many?) Civ3 players. Many people seem to equate "I don't like it." with "It's broken/buggy/bad/criminal negligence."

Or, really, maybe for me that's the essence of "whining" - failing to see that one's argument is that, an argument, not an obvious, forgone, we-all-agree-with-it conclusion.

"It doesn't mean they are wrong but anyone that feels less than thrilled shouldn't have to apologize for it."

That's certainly true - but, and I think this should be obvious, those who are pleased by the game shouldn't have to apologize for that, either. Or defend their "civ" credentials. I've seen the argument put forward that anyone enjoying Civ3 just doesn't, to paraphrase, know what they're talking about.

And I've seen the reverse argument too, of course.
There is, however, a similar, but not identical, argument that I believe can be validly leveled against many of those most critical of Civ3: Most of the "flaws" they criticise/complain/whine about are not really so much flaws, but rather _things that make Civ3 less of a direct sequal to Civ2 or SMAC._

I think it's fine to be disappointed that Civ3 doesn't follow the Civ2/SMAC design philosophy, but it isn't correct criticize Civ3 as a failed Civ2/SMAC. I think that's just as invalid as slamming Civ3 for not having EAX sound, running at 60fps or having configurable weapon hotkeys and reverse mouse-look as options.

"Mosts"

All those "mosts" look good to me. The only one I want to comment on is "most of us trusted Infogrammes."

True or not, I think it was foolish to trust the publisher, or (a related phenomena, I beleive) to swallow even one word of hype or trust any sort of "preview" or before-release statement from Info. or Firaxis.

"Different I can handle, hard I can adjust to, but I can't wait three minutes a turn."

That all sounds very reasonable to me. I think the "wait three min. a turn" is a very valid criticism of Civ3 - I'm very glad that you didn't say "we all can't wait three min. a turn."

"Are all the dozens of bug reports made up?"

Most (or at least many) games have a bonanza of bugs when released. I think it's very praisworthy when a game doesn't, but I'm not going to ding a game for having bugs. EXCEPT for Civ3's Air Support bug. That was a play-feature that was very obviously missing and had a fairly large impact on gameplay.

"And we could spend years questioning the wisdom of certain game design choices (notice my Civ 4 threads)."

I think that's different from whats being called "whining".

"Answer yes to any and Congradulations! You're a whiner too."

Oh, come on. The questions you asked were all interesting Socraticly
phrased criticisms, not whines. I'd enjoy discussing them.

	08-02-2002 17:15									#136
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Not good enough. How about a webpage updated more than once a month? How about including an FAQ instead of making off the cuff remarks in buried threads that then become legendary for starting rumors of might be, could be, were, etc.?

The fact of the matter is, Firaxis burned itself pre-release, stepped in its own crap shortly after release and is now proving itself Superior in the Idiocy Department by saying:

"Since we don't know how to communicate, we are just going to shutup ... but watch to buried hints and occasional smart-a** remarks from us in the meantime."

Yes, Markos. Brilliant.

	08-02-2002 17:15									#137
	Polls Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

These polls all have self-selecting respondents, right?
*We all know* how valid that makes them, right?

	08-02-2002 17:20									#138
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Of course...

glad you now remember(?)

quote: Markos, what Civ3 features would you like to see in CtP2?

- the way diplomacy negotiations are being done.
- ai's over-the-sea invasions and generally the whole ai
definately not the combat model (add this to the ctp2-2-civ3 list)
- right-click menus
- city interface(but not the city managment screen, ctp2 had more options)
- leaders and armies(even with the same combat/stacks model)
- culture model(of course)
- domination vistory

and some other stuff

satisfied?

	08-02-2002 17:26									#139
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Not good enough. How about a webpage updated more than once a month? How about including an FAQ instead of making off the cuff remarks in buried threads that then become legendary for starting rumors of might be, could be, were, etc.?

this has all been said before. you have got to have better things to do than repeat the same stuff over and over. or you're proving jeff morris right....

	08-02-2002 17:29									#140
	Put an end to popups!

Markos, one of THE most repetitive people here is you. And don't try the Jeff Morris troll on me. Leave that to the professional troller himself, whom, by the way, you asked NOT to troll with his pathetic article here anymore...remember?

	08-02-2002 17:37									#141
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Markos, one of THE most repetitive people here is you.

1) if i didnt own apolyton, i wouldnt be here that frequently
2) and if i didnt like civ3 and had stopped playing, i would be totally gone from the civ3 forums until the next patch
3) i certainly do not participate in all discussions like this, nor do i start any new ones

quote: And don't try the Jeff Morris troll on me.

95% of your posts these days are to complain about civ3 or firaxis isnt it?

quote: Leave that to the professional troller himself

a single thread does not make someone a proffesional....

	08-02-2002 17:41									#142
	Tired of ads?

Yeah, this place really would have sucked had Civ3 actually been a great game! Too bad deleting, closing, moving and trolling in complaint threads doesn't count toward fixing the game, eh Markos?

Then again, if you fixed it, the whole community would collapse for lack of anything to discuss.

	08-02-2002 17:46									#143
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Then again, if you fixed it, the whole community would collapse for lack of anything to discuss.

the "jeff morris law" doesnt have to apply to the entire community. in fact it doesnt. but it does certainly seem to apply to some people....

	08-02-2002 18:04									#144
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yep, I simply couldn't stand to be around here had the game been a huge success. You finally figured me out.

	08-02-2002 18:17									#145
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Yep, I simply couldn't stand to be around here had the game been a huge success.

that's not what the "jeff morris law" says. it says that people ("some people" according to me) love to complain. you seem to have become one of them

	08-02-2002 18:27									#146
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by TechWins BtW, anybody at anytime is welcome to join in on a discussion...kind of just like what I did.

Well there's the operative word, discussion. A one sided, rant in your face tirade doesn't quite fit into that definition in my books.

	08-02-2002 18:30									#147
	Got spare money?

quote: My final and most radical point is that the online gaming community, which most frequently identifies and evangelizes bugs, have strong interests in games not being 100 percent bug free. Let's say a title avoided major hardware conflicts and is produced by a company with the fiscal resources of Midas. The offering is highly anticipated and has a roll out of a quarter of a million units and 20 active fan sites eagerly digesting every bit of news. In this situation, the final product is actually an ending, and those who spent the last year or two following it are faced with saying goodbye to the friends they've made online and moving on to another title.

Markos, did you really think I'd let you just get away with being so blatantly wrong? Amazing how you come in here bemoaning people being repetitive and yet you force up this crap again. You just being silly?

	08-02-2002 18:31									#148
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Yeah, a Solid Gold Civ3 would have killed Apolyton.

Christ...

	08-02-2002 18:36									#149
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

"Markos, did you really think I'd let you just get away with being so blatantly wrong?"

What's he blatantly wrong about?

	08-02-2002 18:38									#150
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Markos, did you really think I'd let you just get away with being so blatantly wrong? Amazing how you come in here bemoaning people being repetitive and yet you force up this crap again. You just being silly?

i'm not bemoaning people or call them silly. nor am i using terms as "crap". please do the same.

again, i disagree that what jeff morris says applies to the whole community or apolyton. that doesnt mean it doesnt apply to some people....