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Tical_2000
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A true democracy sounds unnatural and strange. How could every person in a nation vote for every bill? Things would never get done. I think a true democracy would be less productive than a despotism. Can someone please explain to me the concept of social engineering so I can perhaps formulate my own opinions on it? Thanx.
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JamesJKirk
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Dixon, CA USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:12
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I think a "true" Marxist would only view the Soviet system as a dictatorship than any sort of socialist ideal. Socialism is economic control by the people, ie workers, not the government. "Marxism" was well warped into being a sort of catchall economic and political revolution by the end of the 19th century, whereas in reality, The workers of an industry would control that industry, and the entire of a society would have equal control over the political system. The Soviet system was I guess Socialist in an economic sense, but not in a real sense, since socialism implies equality and justice, which were limited. in the "true" sence, since "true" forms of govenrment seems to be the theme here. I suppose in a very broad sense, the stated goal of the USSR was to guide society into a classless system, and it dubbed itself socialist, but aside from the welfare state benefits, it was just a dictatorship. I would think Socialism government would be akin to Sweden, or other more moderate european democracies, still the difference lies in economics not politics. But what I wonder why would "Market" be the most advanced government? Should people strive toward cooperation rather than petty competition? Hasn't the Gilded Age taught you all anything?
Darkcloud- UK and Scandinavia are democracies, aside from health care, that UK economy isn't much more socialize that that of the US- the political systems are similar, although Europe tends to follow a parliamentary system, and the US has a presidential system. Big whoop, people still vote for representatives, etc etc. And I think it's established most gov't functions will be replaced by Social Engineering. Perhaps, maybe even hopefully, we can have a basic government shell and control the SE of that gov't. It would allow popular revolutions, while letting the player control the specifics.
Tical- Haven't you heard of the Athenian Democracy? It was a true democracy, sort of, all of the male citizens could vote on every bill, so it's been done, it would have to work in a small nation, unless it were done electronically how CTP suggests. Social Engineering is the ability of the player to select the type of economy, social structure, etc etc of a tribe, play SMAC doing it explains it better than me telling you.
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Christantine The Great
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Massachusetts
Jun 2000
time: 00:12
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With the internet a true (pure) democracy is possible. And I would like to point out an important fact. There are NO ACTUAL democracies functioning on this earth today! There are republics (France), democratic republics (U.S.A.), constitutional monarchies (U.K.), monarchies (Netherlands(?)), theocratic "republics" (Most Arab nations), dictatorships (Iraq), and communist dictatorships (China) but NO democracies. (Ok, I may have left out some governments but do you get the point?)
Socialism and Communism are not governments but economy models. They are usually enforced by dictatorships (Which should be on the list!)
I hope I'm not sounding too pushy.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Christantine The Great on 11-24-2000 01:33 AM
Socialism and Communism are not governments but economy models. They are usually enforced by dictatorships
I hope I'm not sounding too pushy.
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Not pushy, but still wrong IMHO.
Communism is a government type, ruled by a single political party that makes all the decisions, economic or otherwise. Because of this it can hardly have anything else but a planned economy, if it wants to function at all. However, other government types can also have a more-or-less planned economy.
Socialism is not a government, nor is it an economy model. It is an ideology that calls upon the (any) government to take care of all citizens, in contrast to "laissez fair". This encompasses economic factors (key industries controlled or directed by the government, so at least partly planned is mandatory) as well as social (welfare, healthcare, housing).
Both Democratic and Communistic governments are well capable of carrying out "socialist" policies.
The Netherlands do not have a Monarchy type of government, but a (rather socialistic) Democracy. Iraq is a Monarchy, like Jordan. Lybia is a dictatorship (Despotism), Egypt a Democracy. As far as I know there are no Arab Theocracies; Iran (non-Arab!) was one but is now in transition again.
The difference between a Democracy and a Republic is that is a Republic the few elect the few (like the Roman senate chose its own members), while in a Democracy (be it "pure" or representative) "everyone" has the right to vote and "anyone" can be elected.
------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited November 24, 2000).]
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Shogun Gunner
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Potomac Falls, Virginia
Oct 2000
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah on 11-24-2000 10:07 AM
Not pushy, but still wrong IMHO.
Communism is a government type, ruled by a single political party that makes all the decisions, economic or otherwise. Because of this it can hardly have anything else but a planned economy, if it wants to function at all. However, other government types can also have a more-or-less planned economy.
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Ribannah, it sounds like you are describing the reality of Communism - especially Soviet, not the true theory of Communism. In "pure" Communism, there is no planning, there is no government since the "worker's paradise" would be achieved. Very unrealistic and hard to represent in CIV. We may have to be content with a Communism government type based on the Soviet example.
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Stalker0
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There is so such thing as a real democracy, even the US is simply a republic. However, a democracy could theoretically be created through the internet and other kinds of technology like that. But since Civ already considers a difference between Republic and a US Republic (Civ's democracy) I don't think they'll change it.
I also like the SMAC social engineering concept. Then you can create welfare states, socialist republics and so forth
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Ralf
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Sweden
Mar 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud on 11-22-2000 06:05 PM
Market- *Most advanced form of Government
Tax Collecting- 100%
War- 60%
Infastructure- 75%
Happiness- 85%
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I dont know how long Civ-3 is supposed to stretch into the future, but generally i DONT think "Market" should be the most advanced form of government.
Its just too controversial. Like having Marxism/historical materialism as a base to build the economical mechanics behind the game. The game-designers of Civ-3 must avoid having such traditional "red" or conventional profit-worshiping choices as so-called "most advanced" governments.
Market economy is about economical dog-eat-dog ideals, that limps along because, at present, there isnt any believeable alternatives. But, for the next 100, 200 or even 500 years into the future? Please, dont give up hope...
To cheer you guys up, i give the following simile about our civilisations history and future:
The mid-winter (dec) is the darkest part of the year, but often not yet the coldest. By comparison, the late-winter period (feb) is gradually more brighten, but at the same time often the coldest month of the year.
Similarly, we aften talk about our medieval/ancient history as a morally "darker times", but also a time where people was much less cynical and jaded about believe-systems and ideals (= dec: yet not so "cold" times).
By comparision, our modern world, symbolises februari: We live in somewhat "brighter times" in some limited ways: We have education, medical and geriatric care, red cross, social work and material/technical conveniences, that all contributes to make our lives somewhat easier to live.
At the same time the modern man have found himself in much "colder times". Many modern people dont beleive in anything anymore. Not in a God and overal purpose, and not in any other beleive- or value-systems either.
Well, im maybe incredible naive here - but what comes after late-winter? Our civilization has perhaps not reach its coldest turning-point yet: Maybe there are temporary social and economical collapses, and even major wars along the way - i dont know.
But, does late-winters last forever an ever? Nope! 
Why not have a really wise, altruistic and humanly intelligent future-only government-form, that perhaps dont work today, but MAYBE in year 2100-2400?
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 26, 2000).]
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Tical_2000
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Originally posted by Shogun Gunner on 11-24-2000 11:53 AM
Ribannah, it sounds like you are describing the reality of Communism - especially Soviet, not the true theory of Communism. In "pure" Communism, there is no planning, there is no government since the "worker's paradise" would be achieved. Very unrealistic and hard to represent in CIV. We may have to be content with a Communism government type based on the Soviet example.
-Don't be stupid! Of course there can be no 'pure' communism. So what the hell is your point? If you think you are amusing anyone with your political theory knowledge, you are mistaken. What we are discussing here is how to best implement gov'ts in Civ3 and whether they should be separate from economic systems. My personal opinion? No. They shouldn't be.
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err.... I go for SMAC like flexible government model, not that old classic frozen government forms model... !!!
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Antonios
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Larissa,Thessalia,Hellas
Oct 2000
time: 05:12
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Market as a government?No.
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Christantine The Great
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Massachusetts
Jun 2000
time: 00:12
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[q]under Communism only members of one party can be elected, so it isn't the same as under Democracy.
[q]
NO! Under a true democracy the people can vote for ANYONE they want to. They do not need to constantly vote for Democrats, as under a Republic you don't need to vote for Republicans.
Communism is an economic model. Dictatorships usually use a combination of a secret police and a communist economy to keep the people of a country in check.
[q]but if we want Civ to represent history there is no place for "pure" Communism or Democracy anyway if the real world never had something like that.
[q]
Remember, we are rewriting history. That means we can do what history says we can do but never really did it!
Market...Hmm...not too realistic, the world being governed by the rise and fall of stock prices. It sounds like the people will be a bit pissed, not too happy.
In Civ II the designers favored a Democratic government probably because they lived in a democratic republic (U.S.). They made democracy the "best" government with the communist government that history shows us in second place. Each government should have its strong points that other governments cannot have.
Maybe, along with the regular choices, there should be a panel of check boxes on the side of the screen that differ from each type of government. The check boxes would be small changes you could do to your government to further refine it.
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23-11-2000 04:04
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