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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Hussein 'Abayat, a local leader of the tanzimat, was extrajudicially executed in Beit Sahur in the West Bank by a shell launched from an Israeli helicopter gunship which killed two women standing near his van and injured nine others. An IDF spokesperson admitted that Hussein 'Abayat had been targeted, allegedly because he was going to launch an attack on Gilo settlement. |
The Tanzim armed militia took responsibility for many shooting terracts and among them shooting on Gilo. I would rather trust Israeli intelligence on him planning an attack than rely on Amnesty's neutral speculations.
Furthermore, he was not extrajudicially executed but rather eliminated like combatants are during a due process of armed conflict.
Furthermore, he was a combatant employing terror tactics, namely targeting innocent civilians, which made his elimination ever more urgent.
quote:
Israeli security services killed at least 300 and wounded more than 10,000 Palestinians. The majority of those killed and wounded were demonstrators throwing stones or using slings; at least 100 of those killed were children under 18. |
Missing information:
"demonstrators" were actually rioters, as they threw stones and used slings against innocent people in Israeli territory, or against Israeli security forces who tried to contain the riot.
Israeli security forces aimed at those rioters possessing molotovs and rifles who took cover begin the stone throwers.
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The Israeli police, border police, special patrol force and IDF used excessive lethal force, firing rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition including high-velocity bullets at demonstrators. |
I don't get the high-velocity bullets part. Are there slower bullets?
Furthermore, the fire was not, as we are lead to believe "random" and "generally aimed" but rather aimed at armed militia men. Unfortunately, sometimes they missed.
However, it's important to stress the ease, in which an armed gun-man can lay down his gun and instantly become "an innocent demonstrator" for the cameras and observers.
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Some Palestinians were deliberately targeted and extrajudicially executed. |
I would guess it were those using hot-weapons and planning the attacks.
Seeing how they behaved like combatants in most means (other than following law prohibiting the targeting of civilians) it is only fair that they were treated appropriately.
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The Israeli airforce and the navy used heavy weaponry, including helicopter gunships, tanks and naval vessels, to shell randomly Palestinian areas from where armed Palestinians had opened fire. |
Now that's a complete misrepresentation.
How come the places are "random" if it is mentioned those are specific places from which fire had been opened?
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They also used heavy weaponry to conduct punitive raids against PA facilities. |
Which were and are used as a basis for planning of military and terror operations against Israel, and therefore become legtimate military targets.
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m_m_x
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Israel
Jan 1970
time: 07:17
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Kamrat X-
ur just a racist kid that has nothing to do with his life,
sitting at home playing with himself i guess.....
WHO THE F#^$#@# are u calling a master race and all this kind of Nazi bullshit??huh???
have u ever been in Israel??have u ever been in PA territory????
what gives u the right to talk this way??we are fighting here against bunch of barbarians,they are killing us like fly's,killing there own people,and u probably have forgot that former p.m barrack gave them everything,they said no(u can ask Clinton if u cant believe a Jew)-we want the JEWISH people out of here,and better yet dead,and that's what they are doing since then. and another thing there was never a Palestine state people or what so ever,we had to fight with all Arab nations back in 67 (Iraq, Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Lebanon...and Russian fighters to)and we won ,yes the Jewish people won I know some people cant accept it but we WON!!and conquer Gaza from Egypt,west bank from Jordan.
nazis have killed 6 millions of our people,u know why??not because we suicide bombed in Berlin or other European towns,not because we lunched rocket attacks at cities,not because we threw stones at them,not because we shot them at streets...not because we taught our kids that Germans are "pigs,son of monkeys,heretics that need to be slaughter" you know why?because we were Jews..
so where is the similarity in Israel situation today with pa and the Nazi acts in ww2??
im proud to be a jew,a zionist,and an israeli
i will fight to death with whom attacks my country my home and my people,no matter where is he from.
you are pissing me off!!go learn some history!
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Dr Zoidberg
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Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Goingonit
Well, if that was ment as a joke, you have an awful sense of humor. If it was meant seriously, let me remind you that Arafat was viewed by everyone as a terrorist, until Israel took the West Bank and Gaza. Sharon might be hawkish, but he isn't a terrorist. Not to mention the elected/nonelected thing, and the fact that the settlers, while they are arguably taking land, are not actually attacking anybody. |
Well, I am known for my awful sense of humor, but it would solve a lot of problems though 
Sharon not a terrorist? And what do you call the attacks on the refugee camps Sabra and Shatila in 1982? He ordered them, and he has yet to pay for this...
And the settlers are attacking palestinians,
quote:
Israeli settler attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have been steadily increasing in the past few weeks. These settlers have generally acted with impunity, as the Israeli military and court system historically have been reluctant to arrest, try, and punish settlers for violence they commit against Palestinian civilians. As a result, settlers are virtually free to carry out intimidation, assaults against people and property, and even murder against the Palestinian population. |
From the "Reports on settler violence" section of The alternative information center
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Dr Zoidberg
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Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by m_m_x
Kamrat X-
ur just a racist kid that has nothing to do with his life,
sitting at home playing with himself i guess.....
WHO THE F#^$#@# are u calling a master race and all this kind of Nazi bullshit??huh???
have u ever been in Israel??have u ever been in PA territory????
what gives u the right to talk this way??we are fighting here against bunch of barbarians,they are killing us like fly's,killing there own people,and u probably have forgot that former p.m barrack gave them everything,they said no(u can ask Clinton if u cant believe a Jew)-we want the JEWISH people out of here,and better yet dead,and that's what they are doing since then. and another thing there was never a Palestine state people or what so ever,we had to fight with all Arab nations back in 67 (Iraq, Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Lebanon...and Russian fighters to)and we won ,yes the Jewish people won I know some people cant accept it but we WON!!and conquer Gaza from Egypt,west bank from Jordan.
nazis have killed 6 millions of our people,u know why??not because we suicide bombed in Berlin or other European towns,not because we lunched rocket attacks at cities,not because we threw stones at them,not because we shot them at streets...not because we taught our kids that Germans are "pigs,son of monkeys,heretics that need to be slaughter" you know why?because we were Jews..
so where is the similarity in Israel situation today with pa and the Nazi acts in ww2??
im proud to be a jew,a zionist,and an israeli
i will fight to death with whom attacks my country my home and my people,no matter where is he from.
you are pissing me off!!go learn some history! |
Please, learn to type if you would like people to read what write, and the less said about your use of the english language the better... Now, bugger off you little runt 
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
And how would that be any more deadly than a suicide bomber? |
It knocks down buildings, is less predictable and preventable, and more importantly, doesn't require people willing to be martyrs.
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Like invading all of PA territory and going after the folk yourself? |
Exactly, except for the pronoun.
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Fine, go ahead, but that doesn't solve the political problems underlaying this. |
The problem is primarily a military one.
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hmmm. a state with five governments in 7 years |
All Democratically elected. Already doing much better than its neighbors.
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violating various international agreements |
Just like its neighbors and just like the US. International agreements were made to be broken.
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commonly attacking its neighbors, whom view it righty as a rogue state
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Um, what neighbors has it attacked? The PA isn't even an independent state.
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- and with no resources in it? Its power is based on US money as much as any of its own initiative. |
A good economy is much better than natural resources. Israel has a highly educated population and a modern economy with a strong Internet/technology sector. Of course US military and economic aid help, but the same is true of Jordan, Egypt, and the PA.
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who sell weapons to US competitors, like China |
What weapons were sold to China? In case you stopped paying attention to the region years ago, the Phalcon deal was cancelled.
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In the future, demographic and economic trends in the US and MIddle east both bode badly for Israel and US-Israel relations. |
We'll see.
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So Ben Gurion was a goon? So the leaders of the Ghetto Uprising in Warsaw were goons, with no popular support? Funny that they missed that in the made for TV movie that just came out.... |
Obviously goon is a pejorative, but the point is that armed conflicts are fought by armed men (and occasionally armed women) not by whole civillian populations.
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What inteernational borders? The PA is not yet a state- thats why Israeli leaders speak of a Palestinian stae in the future, not now. |
Would you agree that it's a boundary of jurisdiction, that the Israeli legal system applies on one side of the board and another legal system on the other? I think it was pretty foreseeable that this sort of arrangement, if you prefer, you can call it autonomy, would hamper trade. In fact, as I recall one of the main Palestinian complaints was that their economy was dominated by Israel.
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this is certainly the weakest argument of all! First of all, all the settlements, from gaza to the Jordan valley, doubled, not just the suburbs of Jerusalem.
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So are you going to provide the statistics to show that every settlement's population doubled? Yes many of them did grow, but even so, this is at worst ilegal immigration - hardly a grounds for the murder of innocents.
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Does Israel claim the right to a state free of Palestinian refugees? YES!
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I think we both know that the settlers were all going to leave the Palestinian areas in the event of a peace agreement. So much was agreed upon at Camp David.
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It is really silly to see Israelis argue about why Palestinans should let settlers , who are there illegally, stay because they ahve homes and so forth, but whay they have every right to keep refuggees, who under international law have the right to return , out. |
Possession is nine tenthes of the law. If you live in a house, I think you have the right to stay there. I think this applies equally to an Israeli who lives in a house in Jaffa which was owned by a Palestinian in 1947 as it does to a Palestinian who owns a house in East Jerusalem. The refugee and the settler are opposites.
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I already said that I think the settlers should be given the choice to stay, but as Palestinian citizens, following Palestinian laws, not as Israeli Citizens in israeli soil, whioch is what the settler want. Please know your side before arguing! |
I'd agree to that for 90% of the settlements.
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As for California, both it and NM are part of the US, which does control immigration, and the US does not want illegal immigrants and does move to expel them. If your going to use US as an example , use one that benefits you, not hurts you. |
Sorry, I meant Mexico proper, not New Mexico.
If any Israelis move into Area A, the PA will expel them, and they'll actually face a fine from the Israeli justice system. But the point here with the analogy to the US is that you can't just kill immigrants, as the Palestinians seem to think they can do.
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First, you are right that suicide bombers begun after Oslo, but completely wrong on your body count. The deadliet sucide bombings, in '96, killed about 140 people, with all other attacks being smaller. In 6 months, well over 400 Palestinians were dead, and that's not counting all the Palestinians who dies in the outbrakes of violence from 94-96, and I would include the Goldstien massacre, which was a settler act of terrorism. |
Yes, but there were numerous other smaller suicide bombings. I might as well say that the Palestinian death toll couldn't have been higher than the Israeli one since suicide bombers killed 140 Israelis in a day when never even 20 Palestinians were killed in one day. Hundreds of Israelis were killed in the bombings, which took place over a period of years.
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BUt counting bodies is macabre and worthless. |
Good, I'm glad you agree. I only pointed out the number of bodies to demonstrate the severity of the terrorism problem.
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Why could peace continue after the '96 bombings but not after the disco bombing? What changed? |
Israelis realized that the Palestinian political leadership had taken a decision to stand with the terrorists.
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After Rwanda, nothing is shocking. |
That people could kill their neighbors en masse for a trifle was something we always knew. That they'd kill themselves though is news.
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Besides, the bombings begun 7 yeaqrs ago, so they hardly have shock value anymore. |
My point is that there is something more than just Palestinian disgust for their new Jewish neighbors motivating them to blow themselves up. There is an infrastructure of incitement to terrorism which assures Palestinian men that if they blow themselves up to kill Jewish teenagers, they are holy and blessed martyrs both to Islam and to the Palestinian people who will be remembered and celeberated as role models for the young, and that their families will recieve special stipends.
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Still part of this, we Israelis are the only victims bullcrap! I said, cut both sides off. Isarel is in violation of international law- the international community has every right to punish Israel for it. |
You did not mention any sanctions on the Palesitnian Authority, so I assumed you did not intend to have them put in place.
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Sorry, but the US is not foolish enough to risk its relations with the EU, and NATO, for Israel. In the long term, our relations with 300 million people with a combined economy equal to that of the US is greater than the US relation with a nation of 6 million people with an economy 1/50 that of the US at best, a lot fo which comes from the US anyway. |
I think the US does not like the precedent of the EU messing with our allies. But besides, the EU isn't going to do such a thing anyway.
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Great Point! Why then was partition a worthwhile offer back in 1947? |
A Partition is worthwhile, but THE partition isn't - that is, there is a point in saying that the two sides each deserve separate states - but there is no sense in saying that the line which Jordanian forces were able to hold in 1949 represents the boundaries of a new and different state more than fifty years later. We might as well return
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Why then do Israelis refuse the refugees back, why then do the Paletinians what their own state? This is afight about nationalism, an idea I have already stated is crap. Jewish-Arab relationss were far better than jewish-chirstian relations until nationalism came about, on both sides. |
True, although I hope you do know that there is some difference between Arab and Muslim.
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
And I can't understand how idiots, who can't spot a terrorist when he send planes on them, and live on the other side of the world in their liberalist pacifist haven, can claim the moral high ground over anyone else. |
Siro, I think you owe everyone an apology for that joke. And besides, Osweld's a canuck. 
John T:
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Remember his ideological affiliation, Natan. It's a good thing that Israel isn't populated by Ukranian farmers or else they'd be really screwed. |
Sadly, I don't think Ukrainian peddlers are that much better off. But at least Israel has some Arab Jews - maybe a Nasserist coup is in order to fend off the Red menace? But really, this guy is a Stalinist?
Chegitz:
quote:
Why why why do I even look in these threads?
If Israel really wanted peace, there would be peace. |
Only you can answer that question. Although maybe if Israelis really wanted Chegitz not to waste his time on Apolyton, he wouldn't waste his time on Apolyton.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamrat X
Well, I am known for my awful sense of humor, but it would solve a lot of problems though |
It wouldn't solve any problems.
What would is ethnically cleansing either the jews or palestinians form this area. I support neither, but I have an easy time guessing what you support.
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Sharon not a terrorist? And what do you call the attacks on the refugee camps Sabra and Shatila in 1982? He ordered them, and he has yet to pay for this... |
Yet again so much rambling with so little brains.
Ariel Sharon ordered Eli Hubaika to enter Sabra and Shatilla and chase out PLO members.
What Eli Hubaika did, was his own "interpertation" of things, which Israel, unfortunately didn't stop in time.
Israel was neglagent, and following the incident, and the high court inquiry people paid the price for it. Ariel Sharon had no direct blame as he wasn't reported to properly, but being responsible due to him being minister of defense, he was forced to resign.
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And the settlers are attacking palestinians, |
I remember perhaps 2 cases of crazed settlers actively attacking palestinians.
But then again, if you consider shooting back at palestinian gunmen who shoot at you "attacking", you could be right.
quote:
From the "Reports on settler violence" section of The alternative information center [/QUOTE]
From the about page:
[q]The AIC is a Palestinian-Israeli organization which disseminates information, research and political analysis on Palestinian and Israeli societies as well as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, while promoting cooperation between Palestinians and Israelis based on the values of social justice, solidarity and community involvement. |
Yet all the contact addresses are palestinian:
quote:
Mailing Address:
The Alternative Information Center
POBox 31417
Jerusalem 91313
email: aic@alt-info.org
Farid Jaber farid@alt-info.org
Sergio Yahni sergio@alt-info.org
Office in Bethlehem
AL-Maraqa Bldg. Bab-el-zqaq (on the Hebron Road)
Tel/Fax: +972-2-277 7558/9
Office in Jerusalem
Ben Yehuda 34 (City Tower) suite 512
Tel: +972-2-6241159 or +972-2-6241424
Fax: +972-2-6253151
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East Jerusalem and Bethlehem.
Interesting food for thought.
I wonder what happens to palestinians in PA who'd try to set up a company protesting Arafat's regime. Oh wait, I know, they get arrested and tortured. 
As to the content itself, I read some of the examples in question, and while I do agree that those demonstrate agression and hostility, I would hardly classify most examples as "attacks" in the sense close to palestinian attacks, such as the brutal murder and mutilation of israeli children who went for a walk in the desert near their homes in the settlements.
Furthermore, I'd like to stress still, that I condem the hostilities which are mentioned there and wish Israel would do more to prevent such outbreaks.
However, I'd also be interested in the site itself mentioned the hundreds of similar scale hostilities by palestinians towards israelis and israeli settlers alike.
Until it does so, I don't consider it an impartial source of information, though I do tend to think of it as a somewhat reliable source of information for somethings and it will most definitely get a place in my bookmarks.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Osweld
I haven't tried to claim the moral high ground over anyone - I haven't even taken a side in the conflict. |
No, you always claim the high moral ground for yourself.
In what ever conflict, america-afghanistan, israel-palestinians, you comment from the side about "american" or "israeli" lack of morals, while justifying militant muslim barbarism as "resistance to opression".
And each time you sing songs about human rights for beasts which target and slaughter innocent civilians by the dozens.
And each time you behave 'disgusted' when someone who has been shaken by his nation's tragedy only expresses a will to deal with the terrorists in an angry fashion. This contrary to justyfing or rationalising acts of horror made by fanatical brutes from the other side.
So you don't really get hurt, since you sit high up there in Canada and you think you can piss on everybody and that we can't spit back. So you call nations immoral and illegal and inhuman. But when time comes and terror gets to you - we'll see who cares.
You know, most people who I argue with I respect. I can understand their different point of view or different opinion. You and a limited number of others, are jerks who like to mentally masturbate by leading themselves to believe they are morally superior than anyone. And for that, I don't respect your opnions, and don't respect you very much too.
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If Israel really wanted peace, there would be peace. |
Reminds me of infat. in his better days 
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11-02-2002 02:28
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