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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
In what ever conflict, america-afghanistan, israel-palestinians, you comment from the side about "american" or "israeli" lack of morals, while justifying militant muslim barbarism as "resistance to opression". |
I have a suggestion for you: Try READING people's posts before making asumptions. I have NEVER, EVER, EVER tried to justify "militant muslim barbarism" or any other sort of violence. NEVER.
I understand that you are locked in some sort of single minded hatred - but just because I disagree with israel, doesn't mean I agree with the palestinian side - infact, I have told you numerous times that I do not support them. And likewise, just because I disagree with the USAs "war on terror" doesn't mean I support terrorism.
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And each time you sing songs about human rights for beasts which target and slaughter innocent civilians by the dozens. |
I support human rights for everyone, including you.
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And each time you behave 'disgusted' when someone who has been shaken by his nation's tragedy only expresses a will to deal with the terrorists in an angry fashion. |
I wouldn't describe it as "disgusted" but I certainly do not like, or support, any sort of revenge - revenge does nothing but give someone else a reason to carry out their own revenge.
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This contrary to justyfing or rationalising acts of horror made by fanatical brutes from the other side. |
Again, I have NEVER done that.
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So you don't really get hurt, since you sit high up there in Canada and you think you can piss on everybody and that we can't spit back. So you call nations immoral and illegal and inhuman. But when time comes and terror gets to you - we'll see who cares.
You know, most people who I argue with I respect. I can understand their different point of view or different opinion. You and a limited number of others, are jerks who like to mentally masturbate by leading themselves to believe they are morally superior than anyone. And for that, I don't respect your opnions, and don't respect you very much too. |
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
I like the way the British express big numbers. Instead of saying 90 billion, they say 90 thousand millions. That gives you a better idea of how much is involved. Let's suppose we could build a new public school for $1 million. With the money that has gone to Israel, we could have built 90,000 brand-new public schools or restored 90,000 public waterworks or bridges or any number of other infrastructure needs. |
That's ninety billion over the course of decades, and most of it during the Cold War. Egypt gets more aid than Israel now anyway.
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There is nothing in the Constitution that authorizes Congress to tax the labor of the American people and hand over the proceeds to a foreign government
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I suppose we could just stop giving our foriegn aid, but that would be unilateralist, wouldn't it? Actually though, the aid we give to all of these countries, Israel, Egypt, Russia, etc. serves American interests quite well. The money costs us a whole lot less than losing it would cost them, and it gives us a lot of easy leverage.
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Sceptor107
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ehygpt get 2.9 bil a year
israel gets 2.5
it was part of camp david peace treaty. seems to work now actually. eygpt would have ecome more fanatical soviet lovers otherwise.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Osweld
I have a suggestion for you: Try READING people's posts before making asumptions. I have NEVER, EVER, EVER tried to justify "militant muslim barbarism" or any other sort of violence. NEVER. |
In every thread involving terror you and the likes of you are full with "reasons" and "justifications" for the terror.
Of course you exclaim you oppose violence everywhere, "but", "this was expected and it's no surprise that blah blah blah".
Well i'm part of those who think terror is wrong everywhere, while violence is not wonrg everywhere, and if directed at the right targets, can be an effective measure of getting security.
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I understand that you are locked in some sort of single minded hatred - but just because I disagree with israel, doesn't mean I agree with the palestinian side - infact, I have told you numerous times that I do not support them. And likewise, just because I disagree with the USAs "war on terror" doesn't mean I support terrorism. |
I didn't say you support them. I said you rationalise them, which is faulted since they don't desrve it since they are mostly irrational.
Rational and appeasement didn't work with the Nazis and Commies and doesn't work with Terrorists.
Furthermore, what I did write, and you approved in the text i quoted, is that you behave arrogantly.
You condem both sides for being morally wrong, and save yourself the moral high by simply not suggesting any real solution.
Sometimes, to solve things, one needs to get his hands dirty. But you like to sit on the fence and point at others. And that part really gets to me.
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I support human rights for everyone, including you. |
Thank you.
I support human rights for everyone who deserves them. But ok, let's apply them to everyone.
Still, sometimes, when you are in an extreme threat, your safety comes first. You simply don't know that since you aren't in an extreme threat.
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I wouldn't describe it as "disgusted" but I certainly do not like, or support, any sort of revenge - revenge does nothing but give someone else a reason to carry out their own revenge. |
But that's the problem.
You morally equate both sides.
While terrorists "revenge", niether Israel nor America do. What you think is revenge is actually military steps with defenite targets of removing the threat on them.
You think of it as revenge. We as a solution. I can assure you as an Israeli revenge is the farthest variable when I think about viable Israeli steps.
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Again, I have NEVER done that. |
I remember you have.
It is remotely possible I confused you with someone else, but him behaving like yourself usually, I chose to blame it all on you 
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
In every thread involving terror you and the likes of you are full with "reasons" and "justifications" for the terror. |
Reasons, yes. justifications and rationalizations? No. (I don't know about "my like", though )
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Of course you exclaim you oppose violence everywhere, "but", "this was expected and it's no surprise that blah blah blah". |
I do oppose violence everywhere, but I'm rarely surprised, when it happens.
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Well i'm part of those who think terror is wrong everywhere, while violence is not wonrg everywhere, and if directed at the right targets, can be an effective measure of getting security. |
As does your enemy.
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I didn't say you support them. I said you rationalise them, which is faulted since they don't desrve it since they are mostly irrational. |
Again, I do not rationalize any violence or wrong.
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You condem both sides for being morally wrong, and save yourself the moral high by simply not suggesting any real solution.
Sometimes, to solve things, one needs to get his hands dirty. But you like to sit on the fence and point at others. And that part really gets to me. |
My solution is simple; for both sides to put their differences aside, stop fighting and learn to live together.
You can kill each other all you want, but all that does is fuel the conflict.
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But that's the problem.
You morally equate both sides.
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No, the problem comes when people demonize their enemy.
Both sides have humans on them. People from both sides feel the same pain, anger, and despair. People from both sides are jsut that - people.
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I remember you have. |
Give me a link.
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Sceptor107
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Including military aid?
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yes believe it or not eygpt has 400 M1a1 abrams and a few hundred M113's and F-16's. (Also Tow's and M-16's). all with the latest munitions. eygpt got more than israel so far.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Osweld
Reasons, yes. justifications and rationalizations? No. (I don't know about "my like", though )
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Palestinians: reason - territorial conflict with israel and hate towards it, plus, to some extent the opression from occupation.
you seem to think the conflict results from the occupation while infact the occupation resulted from it.
Muslim Militants : reason - damn right crazy loonies who want to take over the world, and succeed in asia. you seem to think the west opresses them in some way, but the only thing they are bothered with is that you are a sinner.
In each case, you give the terrorists reasons and justifications which aren't really correct. They are to some extent, but you can't offer solutions before you supress the militant side.
Just like germany's problems couldn't be solved until the nazis were defeated, and any appeasement only served to enlarge their appetite for land.
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I do oppose violence everywhere, but I'm rarely surprised, when it happens. |
you act surprised and all pacifist when it happens.
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As does your enemy. |
And I would have no problem with the conflict had my enemy didn't target civilians.
I'm not opposed to armed conflicts, if differences are unbridgeable by conversation (as apparently they were in 48).
But then using terror squads against Israel, is unacceptable.
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Again, I do not rationalize any violence or wrong. |
You do, by giving terrorists traits they don't have like concience and such. If they'd have concience they'd be simple combatants.
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My solution is simple; for both sides to put their differences aside, stop fighting and learn to live together. |
But you know very well it's not realistic, since at least one side in each forementioned conflict is interested in continuing the war.
So, if one side wants to fight, you can't expect the other side to turn the other cheeck and be slaughtered. It's nice and all, but not real.
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You can kill each other all you want, but all that does is fuel the conflict. |
True, conflicts feed themselves.
But it's not the chicken or the egg.
First there is a conflict and then violence.
How to solve this?
Solve conflict!
But the violence is still around and feeds itself.
Therefore violence must be solved first, or else, the conflict won't really be solved.
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No, the problem comes when people demonize their enemy. |
I don't think neither the Nazis, nor Saddam and Osama and Hamas need us to demonize them. They are doing a great job.
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Both sides have humans on them. People from both sides feel the same pain, anger, and despair. People from both sides are jsut that - people. |
Wars are between leaders, and people drag along because of ideologies / relogion / culture.
To solve this, we need to re-educate the whole world against violence, which I would see as the solution.
But that would be "imposing our values" and lefties would find it wrong.
You know very well I can't since I don't exactly remember what it was since I'm disagreeing with you probably for a year now.
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Including military aid? |
Yes. Egypt has M1 Abrams tanks which Israel doesn't, F-16 fighter jets, Apache attack helicopters and a lot of other fun gadgets. IIRC, we do joint war games with them every year.
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No, it wouldnt. Btw, you could pay your dues to the UN, instead. |
So that the recipients of our foriegn aid money could be selected by far-away dictators instead of by our democratically elected representatives? Besides, that would also be unconstitutional.
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And you are also sidestepping his argument about unconstitutionality. |
That's because firstly, he doesn't state what amendment he bases this claim on, and secondly, no US court has ever ruled in accordance with his view.
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Sceptor107
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Dues are not foreign aid. If you want to stay a member of a club, you have to pay your dues. If the UN had any guts, they would kick you out. |
Well no. Without the USA nobody would be give the UN any credibility. (basically they wouldnt listen to ya).
so those are our dues.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Natan
It knocks down buildings, is less predictable and preventable, and more importantly, doesn't require people willing to be martyrs. |
So basically, the Palestinians would be ag9ining the same sort of military ability in a minor way that israel has now- you keep saying it is a war, so how can you then deny your 'enemy' the same capabilities? Hobbes, no lover of freedom, stated that the one right no man can be denied is the right of self-defense, and this applies to both sides.
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The problem is primarily a military one. |
This is the fundamental mistake Israelis make, the simple, basic one. I won't quote clautzwitz cause we all know what he said, but what he said was right- Do supporters of israel ever ask how we got to this point? Its easy to continue to deny that this is the Palestinian people rising up, since that would force Israel to ask why, not just to call Arafat a murderer. I say, why not let the US do an Afghanistan on the West bank and Gaza, bomb, invade, root out the Terrorists, and then... form a democratic, viable Palestinina state on Palestinian land, ie, 100% of the Occupied territories? Could Sharron's government ever allow that? I mean, hey, it would solve the military problem, no?
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All Democratically elected. Already doing much better than its neighbors. |
cause you do see all that terror in jordan, right?
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Just like its neighbors and just like the US. International agreements were made to be broken. |
Is that so? So why have sanctions on Iraq, since all it is doing is breaking international agreements. Why are NK and Iran an 'axis of evil' as you believe, since all they are doing is breaking international agreements? Why was Karine A such a bad thing, if all the PA was doing was breaking international agreements?
Why should the Arabs ahve accepted the 1947 partition, if that was only an INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT!!? International agreements were not made to be broken. Sorry, but only ignorant or immoral people belive that Laws were made to be broken.
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Um, what neighbors has it attacked? The PA isn't even an independent state. |
Lebanon in 1982, Iraq in 1981. It bombed Tunisia in 1986. In 1956 it invaded Egypt in cahoots with france and Great britian, and was really hoping at that time for an excuse to invade Jordan too. Israel has attacked its neighbors land more than the other way around.
A good economy is much better than natural resources. Israel has a highly educated population and a modern economy with a strong Internet/technology sector. Of course US military and economic aid help, but the same is true of Jordan, Egypt, and the PA.
What weapons were sold to China? In case you stopped paying attention to the region years ago, the Phalcon deal was cancelled.
We'll see.
Obviously goon is a pejorative, but the point is that armed conflicts are fought by armed men (and occasionally armed women) not by whole civillian populations.
Would you agree that it's a boundary of jurisdiction, that the Israeli legal system applies on one side of the board and another legal system on the other? I think it was pretty foreseeable that this sort of arrangement, if you prefer, you can call it autonomy, would hamper trade. In fact, as I recall one of the main Palestinian complaints was that their economy was dominated by Israel.
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So are you going to provide the statistics to show that every settlement's population doubled? Yes many of them did grow, but even so, this is at worst ilegal immigration - hardly a grounds for the murder of innocents. |
I, unlike some of the others here, have never called what palestinian extremist do anything other than murder, but a crime is a crime, and the crimes of others do not absolve one of their crimes, never will, NEVER.
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I think we both know that the settlers were all going to leave the Palestinian areas in the event of a peace agreement. So much was agreed upon at Camp David. |
We all know that we don't know anything that really happened since we were not there. Besides, the settlers are armed (by israel) and fanatical.Any real concessions, that forced settlers out, would start a civil war in israel. The fanatics killed one Israeli prime minister already, they probably have no qualmss killing more.
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Possession is nine tenthes of the law. If you live in a house, I think you have the right to stay there. I think this applies equally to an Israeli who lives in a house in Jaffa which was owned by a Palestinian in 1947 as it does to a Palestinian who owns a house in East Jerusalem. The refugee and the settler are opposites. |
If this is true, how could Israel have been created at all? Arabs held most of the Land, had for centuries. If possesion is 9/10th the law, what right does Israel have to exist at ALL? No, possesion is not 9/10th, the deed is. The big difference is that settlers are there illegally, the refugees have the legal right to return. Simply based, you are arguing based on the notion that MIGHT MAKES RIGHT. Well, sorry, that's immoral and wrong, and I will never play by such a twisted and inhuman rule!
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Sorry, I meant Mexico proper, not New Mexico.
If any Israelis move into Area A, the PA will expel them, and they'll actually face a fine from the Israeli justice system. But the point here with the analogy to the US is that you can't just kill immigrants, as the Palestinians seem to think they can do. |
Most israeli's killed are not settlers but soldiers or civilians in israel. Besides, there is a major difference. The israeli government subsidizes the housing, so, big settlements are not the actions of individuals, like trying to sneak accross the US-Mexico border- they are a policy of state, and an illegal one at that.
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Yes, but there were numerous other smaller suicide bombings. I might as well say that the Palestinian death toll couldn't have been higher than the Israeli one since suicide bombers killed 140 Israelis in a day when never even 20 Palestinians were killed in one day. Hundreds of Israelis were killed in the bombings, which took place over a period of years. |
So you would agree that your everyday chances of getting killed are bigger for a Palestinian than an Israeli, right? At the end of the day, more palestinians have died, but also at the end of the day, that is immaterial. The question is, who is responsible for what, and what must they do to rectify their actions. neither side is yet willing to do what they must.
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That people could kill their neighbors en masse for a trifle was something we always knew. That they'd kill themselves though is news.
My point is that there is something more than just Palestinian disgust for their new Jewish neighbors motivating them to blow themselves up. There is an infrastructure of incitement to terrorism which assures Palestinian men that if they blow themselves up to kill Jewish teenagers, they are holy and blessed martyrs both to Islam and to the Palestinian people who will be remembered and celeberated as role models for the young, and that their families will recieve special stipends. |
The Zealots dies for their cause, so fanaticism is nothing new in the region. Most people killing themselevs are also barely out of beign teenagers themselves. To repeat my point ad-infinitum- what hamas, islamic Jihad, and parts of fatah do is criminal and immoral. That still does not absolve israel of its crimes.
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I think the US does not like the precedent of the EU messing with our allies. But besides, the EU isn't going to do such a thing anyway. |
The US can go screw itself really. The EU is a far more important ally for the US than israel can ever be, and the EU does care far more about human rights than the US, and support for Israel there is weak, so it is not an impossibility.
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A Partition is worthwhile, but THE partition isn't - that is, there is a point in saying that the two sides each deserve separate states - but there is no sense in saying that the line which Jordanian forces were able to hold in 1949 represents the boundaries of a new and different state more than fifty years later. We might as well return |
Yet that is the line we have to work with, and that is the line that must be used. The Palestininans have the right to live in their land, just as the Israelis do. So, either a federation is formed for the whole land, or Israel gives back what it took in 1967, and the palestinians make a state out of that. Israel is still getting 78% of the land while certainly not being 78% of the people, since, if we take the refugees into account, there are as many palestinians as israelis (count here only the Jews for israeli, and Israeli Arabs for Palestinians)
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True, although I hope you do know that there is some difference between Arab and Muslim. |
yes, i know there is a difference, but even Arab-christian relations with Jews were better than European-chiristians and Jews.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Palestinians: reason - territorial conflict with israel and hate towards it, plus, to some extent the opression from occupation.
you seem to think the conflict results from the occupation while infact the occupation resulted from it.
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And I thought you knew your history. The PLO was formed in 1969, the Israeli occupation begun in 1967. Hmmm?, which predates which? I wonder? The occupation begun with Israel launching a pre-emptive war vs. its neighbors, though I recommend your read Avram Burg's (hope i spelled that right) account of how that war begun. It is very illuminating, and the fact that the man was a memebr of the Stern gang,then a military hero of the 1948 war, then a knesset memebr, gives him some credibility in my eyes. So, no Sirotnikov, the occupation predates any israeli conflict with paletinian extremists, unless you are a believer in the Golda Meir 'there are no palestinians' line and lump all Arabs together.
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I'm not opposed to armed conflicts, if differences are unbridgeable by conversation (as apparently they were in 48). |
But they can be bridged if evryone follows international law. the rpoblem is that israel has dificulties with the notion of international laws....
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But then using terror squads against Israel, is unacceptable. |
I agree
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You do, by giving terrorists traits they don't have like concience and such. If they'd have concience they'd be simple combatants. |
Are you a terrorist Sirotnikov? If not, how can you make such a claim? Your understanding of Human beings seems rather limited...
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But you know very well it's not realistic, since at least one side in each forementioned conflict is interested in continuing the war. |
I agree too...
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So, if one side wants to fight, you can't expect the other side to turn the other cheeck and be slaughtered. It's nice and all, but not real. |
And which side would you be talking about? remeber, the first people to die back in sept. 2000 were all palestinians. Did they have to just sit there and turn the other cheek?
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How to solve this?
Solve conflict!
But the violence is still around and feeds itself.
Therefore violence must be solved first, or else, the conflict won't really be solved. |
BUt you won't solve the violence with violence. It may seem like an endless circle, but that is only true if both sides remain gutless, unable to own up toi their mistakes, and take decisive actions. The current violence is driven by cowardice and stupidity by both sides.
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But that would be "imposing our values" and lefties would find it wrong. |
cheap shot!
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11-02-2002 03:53
Many is the time when Siro and Eli and Dalgetti have distracted on me in IQC or invited me to a game of Age of Empires (well, only once, because my PC kept crashing) and kept me from my beloved Apolyton. Not to say that I mind this, but they have the power! 
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