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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
And I thought you knew your history. The PLO was formed in 1969, the Israeli occupation begun in 1967. Hmmm? |
And I tohugh you know history 
THe PLO was formed in 1964.
And the Israeli-ARab conflict exists in it's violent phenomen since 1929.
quote:
So, no Sirotnikov, the occupation predates any israeli conflict with paletinian extremists, unless you are a believer in the Golda Meir 'there are no palestinians' line and lump all Arabs together. |
You obviously haven't heard of anything previous of 1967 so I'm going to have a tough time talking to ya.
quote:
But they can be bridged if evryone follows international law. the rpoblem is that israel has dificulties with the notion of international laws.... |
No international laws solve nothing.
An international body set that Israel should exist, and the arabs had a problem with it in 1947.
Luckaly, we jews didn't rely on the international good will to save us.
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Are you a terrorist Sirotnikov? If not, how can you make such a claim? Your understanding of Human beings seems rather limited... |
No my understanding of human beings is great.
A person who can target innocent children, can't really be considered a normal human being.
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And which side would you be talking about? remeber, the first people to die back in sept. 2000 were all palestinians. Did they have to just sit there and turn the other cheek? |
Let's review:
Sept. 2000
Mass violent riots break out across Israeli major towns, where the rioters target civilians and civil property.
Did you expect Israeli police not to protect Israeli citizens by trying to remove the threat using fire?
quote:
BUt you won't solve the violence with violence. It may seem like an endless circle, but that is only true if both sides remain gutless, unable to own up toi their mistakes, and take decisive actions. The current violence is driven by cowardice and stupidity by both sides. |
You can solve violence with violence, if you one side is defeated, and then re-educated.
The Nazis were re-educated with success.
Lefty
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
A group of terrorists opened fire on a restaurant in southern city of Be'er Sheva and injured several and killed two female soldiers.
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Why do you call them terrorists? I believe they are, but when I asked for the definition of a terrorist some time ago, you all claimed that soldiers were fair game for 'freedom fighters'. So killing two soldiers does not make tham terrorists.
Just curious....
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You doubt their ability to keep me from Apolyton?!?  Many is the time when Siro and Eli and Dalgetti have distracted on me in IQC or invited me to a game of Age of Empires (well, only once, because my PC kept crashing) and kept me from my beloved Apolyton. Not to say that I mind this, but they have the power!  |
GePap : AFIAK , the PLO was formed in 64' in order to free the occupied palestinian territories , that are more known as the state of Israel, in its' internationally recognized borders. please check this one up. If I am wrong , a link please.
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Why do you call them terrorists? I believe they are, but when I asked for the definition of a terrorist some time ago, you all claimed that soldiers were fair game for 'freedom fighters'. So killing two soldiers does not make tham terrorists.
Just curious....
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first of all , some of the wounded were civilians. but that's o.k. I guess. the interesting fact is that there is a school nearby . I guess noone cares about that.
just curious....
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Dr Zoidberg
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Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Natan
I call them a massacre by Christian phalangists allied with Israel.
He had them sweep the area for terrorists, but nothing more - IIRC a judge ruled to this effect in a libel suit against Time magazine in the US. |
In 1982, Israeli Army was an occupying force in Beirut (Lebanon); according to the international laws they had the responsibility of protection of all civilians under their control. At that time the Israeli Army was under total control of Israeli Defence Ministry, and Ariel Sharon was the Defence Minister. He visited Beirut and pledged total support for the Israeli allied Lebanese Christian Militia. Ariel Sharon himself gave the green light to Lebanese Christian Militia to enter the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in west Beirut, which consequently resulted in the massacre, torture and rape of hundreds of unarmed civilians, mainly women and children.
The Israeli Army was not only monitoring the camps and did nothing to stop the massacre, but as a matter of fact, they paved the path for Militias to enter the camps. They had their direct and clear orders from the Israeli Defence Ministry not to interfere and give free hands and assistance to the Lebanese Christian Militia.
With the outbreak of news of massacre in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, Israeli public was outraged and went on demonstration, and demanded the resignation of Ariel Sharon and an inquiry to the matter. Israeli Knesset took action and sat up a parliamentary committee to investigate Ariel Sharon’s involvement in this inhumane act of atrocity. As result of that inquiry, Ariel Sharon was found responsible for the actions of Lebanese Christian Militia, and consequently forced him to resign from his post as Defence Minister. But of course, as he is an Israeli and these crimes were not committed against Israeli nationals, he was never charged and never appeared in any court of justice in Israel.
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There was a clear obligation on political and military leaders to take reasonable steps to protect civilians when they made their orders. In a situation where civilians' lives were clearly at risk, the person giving orders was even more responsible than the ones carrying them out |
Judge Richard Goldstone.
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Wow, a biased source which provides no actual facts! |
There is very few un-biased sources (Amnesty is a possible exception), just more or less biased.
Last edited by Dr Zoidberg on 11-02-2002 at 20:45
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalgetti
first of all , some of the wounded were civilians. but that's o.k. I guess. the interesting fact is that there is a school nearby . I guess noone cares about that.
just curious.... |
Presumably the civilians injuries were 'accidental injuries' just like the injuries to civilians in Palestine caused by Israeli soldiers.
There was a school nearby which the freedom fighters were hiding in? I am suprised you haven't bulldozed it yet.....
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Dr Zoidberg
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Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Remember his ideological affiliation, Natan. It's a good thing that Israel isn't populated by Ukranian farmers or else they'd be really screwed. |
 It was Stalins mass-collectivization programs that killed the Ukrainian farmers. And I´m no fan of Stalin Or if you´re talking of the machnoist movement in the 20´s; they were nothing but thieves and bandits and they acted as counterrevolutionaries.
quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
It wouldn't solve any problems.
What would is ethnically cleansing either the jews or palestinians form this area. I support neither, but I have an easy time guessing what you support. |
Hey, I don´t support etnic cleansing, period! The simple solution to this is for Israel to give back the occupied territories to the palestinians so they can form an independent state. Then the violence will end!
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Yet again so much rambling with so little brains. |
 See my answer to Eli
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I remember perhaps 2 cases of crazed settlers actively attacking palestinians.But then again, if you consider shooting back at palestinian gunmen who shoot at you "attacking", you could be right. |
Selective memory, Siro? No, sorry. I forgot you think it´s "impartial" to report settler violence...
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Until it does so, I don't consider it an impartial source of information, though I do tend to think of it as a somewhat reliable source of information for somethings and it will most definitely get a place in my bookmarks. |
As I said, there´s very few impartial sources in this apart from Amnesty. But they say basically the same things.
quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
Kamrat X: Your just stupid. Just sit back and don't say anything. If you want to say something, ask che for permission. He will tell you what to say so that you won't look too racist.  |
Well, you´re entitled to an opinion, I suppose... 
quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Why do you call them terrorists? I believe they are, but when I asked for the definition of a terrorist some time ago, you all claimed that soldiers were fair game for 'freedom fighters'. So killing two soldiers does not make tham terrorists.
Just curious.... |
One man´s freedom fighter is another man´s terrorist. It all depends on where you stand 
Last edited by Dr Zoidberg on 11-02-2002 at 21:07
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Comrade Tribune
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Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by CYBERAmazon
Fascinating. I've always associated genocide with Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, mass graves and Slobodan Milosevic. |
Read the UN definition of genocide. Basically, it is trying to destroy a national culture. You could, theoretically, commit genocide without killing a single person.
Oh, and btw, Milosevic did treat Albanians not half as badly as Israel is treating Palestinians. And the US did kill more civilians in Afghanistan than Milosevic in his lifetime -if he did kill any, which is, in fact, doubtful. Most of the Milosevic stories were made up by US propaganda. You have yet to find those alleged mass graves.
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Dr Strangelove
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I'm just wondering... did they remove the terrorist from the bomb suit before detonating it?
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:17
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I remember seeing a picture of his body and a police robot's arm above it, so I guess that they just blew it up on him. Yukk.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamrat X
It was Stalins mass-collectivization programs that killed the Ukrainian farmers. And I´m no fan of Stalin Or if you´re talking of the machnoist movement in the 20´s; they were nothing but thieves and bandits and they acted as counterrevolutionaries. |
But that's just what real communism is. A fantasy allowing thugs and thieves to get power over trusting minions.
The fact is, that's how "communist" regimes all around the world work.
The problem with communism, is that it is against human nature, which is to exploit. You create leaders who are supposed to be benevolent, but aren't really. You create a system which is supposed to be democratic, but isn't really.
That's why, meanwhile democracy is better. And capitalism is better since it's open and sincere about it's goal - to win. Communism, while very noble, is against the natural human tendency to take advantage of others.
quote:
Hey, I don´t support etnic cleansing, period! The simple solution to this is for Israel to give back the occupied territories to the palestinians so they can form an independent state. Then the violence will end! |
Then tell me, why was there violence prior to 1967?
Your nice site, doesn't tell you how in the 50s and 60s arab terrorists infiltrated Israel, and massacared villages and kibutzes, raiding children's houses at nights (during the 50s and 60s, children in a kibutz lived in thier own 'dorm' apart from parents).
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Selective memory, Siro? No, sorry. I forgot you think it´s "impartial" to report settler violence... |
I think you better re-read your dictionary, brainiac.
quote:
As I said, there´s very few impartial sources in this apart from Amnesty. But they say basically the same things. |
Just cause they say the same things doesn't make them right, but rather followers of a herd.
Amnesty are pittyful fools. Just like most leftists. They mean well, but they can't see what's infront of their eyes.
Amnesty are great in monitoring Israeli measures to try and fight terror, such as closures and targeted eliminations, but they don't and can't monitor Palestinian terrorists. They say it's not their field.
I say, if Israeli sometimes killing civilians on mistake, is in thier field, then Palestinians targeting to kill as much civilians as possible, should be in their field.
Either they ignore violent conflicts all together, or they treat everyone impartially.
quote:
Well, you´re entitled to an opinion, I suppose... |
Sure he is.
And you do look racist, and you might even be racist. I just don't care enough to think about it.
quote:
One man´s freedom fighter is another man´s terrorist. It all depends on where you stand |
We've already set defintions for terrorists as opposed to freedom fighters / partisans.
Just because you're willing to call any person who intentionally targets Israeli civilians, esp. children, a fighter for "freedom" doesn't change his terrorist status.
I already told people here. I don't have a problem with armies or wars. The Hezbulla Guerilla war was acceptable. Their targeting civilian residents and kidnapping and executing soldiers and thier killing of civilians was not.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Most of the Milosevic stories were made up by US propaganda. You have yet to find those alleged mass graves. |
Nope. The mass graves were an invention of Muslim bosnian propoganda against Milosevic.
quote:
I'm just wondering... did they remove the terrorist from the bomb suit before detonating it? |
Hm....
Probably so, though if it proved very risky possibly not.
I know that when we caught live terrorists last week we certainly did remove them from their suit before detonating it.
quote:
Yep, Israel steals one of the most important commodities in the region, water, from the Palestinians. Furthermore, Israeli trade barriers, movement restrictions and so forth prevent Palestinians from raising themselves from the rut they're in. |
1) Israel does supply water to the palestinians.
2) Israeli trade barriers are a means of pressuring Arafat, since he gains from the taxes and puts money into more terror. Israel tries to find solutions for palestinians to suffer less. I know for instance that Israel made several exceptions including allowing a palestinian group to export flowers to the international flowers market.
3) Movement restrictions, while nasty, are the heart of Israeli security measures. While they do serve an effect of suppressing people, their first and foremost effect is making it extremely difficult to infiltrate Israel, let alone unchecked.
Let me remind you, that there are movement restrictions where there are terrorists.
When it is known terrorists have infiltrated Israel and target specific towns, closures are put on them.
Haifa had it's closures, and more recently Jerusalem, Hadera and today Beer Sheva had severe movement restrictions.
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kamrat X
In 1982, Israeli Army was an occupying force in Beirut (Lebanon); according to the international laws they had the responsibility of protection of all civilians under their control. At that time the Israeli Army was under total control of Israeli Defence Ministry, and Ariel Sharon was the Defence Minister. He visited Beirut and pledged total support for the Israeli allied Lebanese Christian Militia. Ariel Sharon himself gave the green light to Lebanese Christian Militia to enter the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila in west Beirut, which consequently resulted in the massacre, torture and rape of hundreds of unarmed civilians, mainly women and children. |
And since he didn't know it would happen that way, I don't think he can be held responsible.
quote:
The Israeli Army was not only monitoring the camps and did nothing to stop the massacre, but as a matter of fact, they paved the path for Militias to enter the camps. They had their direct and clear orders from the Israeli Defence Ministry not to interfere and give free hands and assistance to the Lebanese Christian Militia. |
That's because Israel thought it could trust the Lebanese Forces.
quote:
With the outbreak of news of massacre in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila, Israeli public was outraged and went on demonstration, and demanded the resignation of Ariel Sharon and an inquiry to the matter. Israeli Knesset took action and sat up a parliamentary committee to investigate Ariel Sharon’s involvement in this inhumane act of atrocity. As result of that inquiry, Ariel Sharon was found responsible for the actions of Lebanese Christian Militia, and consequently forced him to resign from his post as Defence Minister. But of course, as he is an Israeli and these crimes were not committed against Israeli nationals, he was never charged and never appeared in any court of justice in Israel. |
Actually, he was found INDIRECTLY responsible, meaning that it was his job to make sure that this wouldn't happen and he didn't make sure enough. But this commission also ruled that he had not known the massacre would happen.
quote:
There is very few un-biased sources (Amnesty is a possible exception), just more or less biased. |
I guess I'll just start reffering you to the Israeli foriegn ministry webpage.
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11-02-2002 10:41
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