17-02-2002 04:33									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E When did religion play a part in this?

Because I think it was you who said -I hope not to mix you up with someone else - that Catholics and Orthodox are 'dead religions'. Have you ever heard of Opus Dei ? I ask you that for a reason, because they are crazy Catholic Fascists who will assuredly lock you up for 'political crime' if they ever come to power.

Thatīs why I am suggesting not to use the words 'political crime'. They could be used against everybody, including you.

	17-02-2002 04:41									#62
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We were talking about Haider and Waldheim then you related that to islam and christianity... Thus my question.

	17-02-2002 04:48									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E Asking and stating are two different things.

Thanks for clearing that up.

quote: Anyways you're defending Slobo who has committed crimes against humanity.

Pleeeease. He has been accused of crimes against humanity. That is a very different thing, if the accusations happen to be false. If they say you have crucified Christ, and I know you havenīt, wouldnīt you think I should defend you?

quote: In your book he's the Messiah in his second coming.

No, he isnīt. He doesnīt match the prophecies. But he is, perhaps, quite a nice guy.

quote: I'm wondering about your nick...

Itīs my CivII handle. My own philosophy are the things I am talking about all the time.

	17-02-2002 04:56									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E If you do not want to call that ostracism fine . The very idea of ostracism was that you had to leave the country. Go into exile.

Yes, I know. Thatīs the source of the misunderstanding.

Exile could result from
a) a trial.
b) an Ostracism.

In the case of a) you were considered a criminal, exile was usually permanent, and you could lose property and/or citizenship in addition.

b) was none of the above. You could return after a certain time -10 years, I think-, as if nothing had happened. So there is a difference, and this was what my post was all about.

	17-02-2002 05:05									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E So Waldheim was not brownish and a nazi according to you.

No, not really; he was an opportunist. Like, say, the fans of George Bush. An ideological Nazi, he wasnīt.

quote: So he didnt do it cos noone proved it. Just like you claim for Slobo. If there (allegedly) is no proof it cannot have happened. Talk about mixing up and confusing.

If you really like to lock people up without proof, why not move to the US, and join the Office of Homeland Security?

(Though my personal bet is you are a good person, who just didnīt think it through, yet. )

	18-02-2002 17:30									#66
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quote: Yes, I know. Thatīs the source of the misunderstanding. Exile could result from a) a trial. b) an Ostracism. In the case of a) you were considered a criminal, exile was usually permanent, and you could lose property and/or citizenship in addition. b) was none of the above. You could return after a certain time -10 years, I think-, as if nothing had happened. So there is a difference, and this was what my post was all about.

You seem to forget one important thing: the modern usage of the word ostracism. Yes, ppl take oldtime concepts and use them in new settings.

Let's say Jörg got so unpopular in Austria that he fled to the island of Capri. The media would then be likely to write that he had been ostracised. Your definition does not encompass the modern usage. This is a serious omission and thus your arguments and definitions fall short.

For instance, remember my prophetic post about Jörg Haider, and that it would only be a matter of time before he showed himself as a political criminal? Guess what a few days after I wrote this he's now charged with political crimes and is facing 2 yrs in prison! He went to see his good buddy Saddam and brought some equipment with him.

And you say let's not use such harsh words as political crimes... How about now Oh, wait, he's not been found guilty yet, so in the eyes of the law he's innocent. Until proven guilty... Just a matter of time then perhaps

If we cannot use the words political criminals on ppl who commit ethnic cleansing etc. - can we use the words at all? Hitler, Stalin, and others were not criminal? They were men-o-state. Yes, when you reach a certain level you're not a murderer anymore, just a hero rebel trying to free ppl or other verbiage.

quote: If you really like to lock people up without proof, why not move to the US, and join the Office of Homeland Security? (Though my personal bet is you are a good person, who just didnīt think it through, yet. )

I'd like to move to the USA - any Apolytoners have a job for a MBA-grad ? I'm eligible for a greencard thru a relative.

The Office of Homeland Security? Why not? But not for the reasons you stated.

I'm not talking about locking up ppl without evidence of course The UN-case against Slobo and others are presented with evidence and witnesses are summoned. I have read something that the court is having problems at the moment coming up with hard evidence, but this does not prove that they ever won't. Slobo hid his tracks like a mafia boss mostly using oral orders. Hopefully they'll find some writings. Although giving oral orders is as much evidence as anything else, but it can be harder to prove. Witnesses come in handy here and that's why the court is trying to round some up. Likely witnesses have already stated that they will show up.

If they didn't think they had a case against him they would've never indicted him and the Serbs would've not gotten rid of him. Yes Serbs in government and others do believe he's guilty. And they have firsthand knowledge.

As far as dead religion goes this as a metaphor for nominal religion. Your Opus Dei example does not apply.

	19-02-2002 05:29									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E For instance, remember my prophetic post about Jörg Haider, and that it would only be a matter of time before he showed himself as a political criminal? Guess what a few days after I wrote this he's now charged with political crimes and is facing 2 yrs in prison! He went to see his good buddy Saddam and brought some equipment with him.

He is not accused of a political crime, rather a business delict.

The 2year thing doesnīt apply, donīt believe anything you read in the press. He will be accused of a misdemeanour, and pay a small fine.

	19-02-2002 05:31									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E If we cannot use the words political criminals on ppl who commit ethnic cleansing etc. - can we use the words at all?

What about calling them common criminals? I never said you couldnīt.

I just dislike the word 'political criminal'.

	19-02-2002 05:35									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E If they didn't think they had a case against him they would've never indicted him and the Serbs would've not gotten rid of him. Yes Serbs in government and others do believe he's guilty. And they have firsthand knowledge.

Yeah, and they are his political enemies. And CIA puppets as well. If Slobo was their enemy, he canīt be all bad.

	19-02-2002 06:30									#70
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quote: This was related to the fact that islam throughout history has been spread thru violence. And if that is due to the content of that religion then I don't care very much for it.

Has Christianity been spread through violence? Oh yeah, it definetly has, unless you believe the Jews and Muslims in Spain converted because they had a revelation , and if that is due to the content of that religion then I don't care very much for it .

quote: Funny that you don't climb up on your soapbox when christianity is degraded. Is it because degrading christianity is PC? Some americans think it's a sign of intellectualism to do so.

Obviously you haven't been here long. I defend Christianity in debates with atheists. Your ignorance is astounding.

	19-02-2002 15:15									#71
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quote: Has Christianity been spread through violence? Oh yeah, it definetly has, unless you believe the Jews and Muslims in Spain converted because they had a revelation , and if that is due to the content of that religion then I don't care very much for it . I was talking about islam here. Why are you changing the subject? [QUOTE]Obviously you haven't been here long. I defend Christianity in debates with atheists. Your ignorance is astounding.

I was talking about the average Apolytoner.

So what is it?
1) I have not been here long
2) I have been here long and not read your posts
3) I have been here long and read your posts and been blind everytime i saw the word christian

Pick one.

The fact that I can list 3 different logical answers to your ignorant accusations prove my point about americans:

* They make a great fuss
* Claim stuff and never back it up
* Are generally looked upon as ignorant by Euopeans
* An american calling educated Europeans for ignorant is ironic
* And yes, there's unfortunately more

Do you like my sig?

	19-02-2002 22:09									#72
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quote: But I'm afraid I don't se painfully high taxes as the equivalent of actual pain, torture, or death. I guess that's why I'm not a libertarian.

What about starvation? You're simply not recognizing the implication of high taxes on poor people.

Lars:

The reason why people are getting bent out of shape is that you're mocking Islam because it was spread by violence, while you believe in a religion that was certainly spread by violence. There's a word for that - hypocrisy.

	19-02-2002 23:30									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Lars: The reason why people are getting bent out of shape is that you're mocking Islam because it was spread by violence, while you believe in a religion that was certainly spread by violence. There's a word for that - hypocrisy.

I am merely stating historical facts. If stating history is mockery then it's genocide to kill a fly. You're going way overboard here. Why is it not legal to discuss islam?

Yes, hypocricy is the right word. Everytime one tries to discuss islam you can bet the next post will be about christianity.

Comrade Tribune or other Europeans, could you please come in here and try to rise the level of discussion. I'm talking to americans here... You understand. (One of them is even a texan..) To them stating history is mockery if it's about islam. No wonder....though...these kiddos are brainwashed EVERY day. Pledging allegiance in school with their hand covering the heart area Their history books have nothing on islam cos that's mockery y'all! This is the impression they give in this thread at least. There's a word for it - ridiculous.

	19-02-2002 23:39									#74
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No, stating facts isn't mockery.

But saying "some religion, huh?" was mockery.

That's opinion. A hypocritical one at that.

	19-02-2002 23:47									#75
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And can you possibly type a single post without assinine insults directed at Americans?

	20-02-2002 02:48									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo No, stating facts isn't mockery. But saying "some religion, huh?" was mockery. That's opinion. A hypocritical one at that.

No, just a statement after assessing an aspect of the religion. Christians cannot assess other religions without being hypocriticial is your thesis. And you know it's lacking.

Question: Is islam the only true religion? And will it thus bring world peace?

Can you answer that without stating that such a question is biased, racist, nazist, hypocritical, un-PC, or any other bad thing in your book??

My guess is you won't answer. I've posed many questions in here and noone have been answered. The response has very often been to change the subject, because NOONE wants to talk about islam.

	20-02-2002 03:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And can you possibly type a single post without assinine insults directed at Americans?

No can do with a sig like mine

	20-02-2002 05:57									#78
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quote: No, just a statement after assessing an aspect of the religion.

Right.

quote: Christians cannot assess other religions without being hypocriticial is your thesis.

If Christians (or Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, or whathaveyou) are to assess other religions, they should at least look at it objectively. You dismissed Islam because it was spread by violence. Why don't you dismiss Christianity since it was spread by violence?

quote: Question: Is islam the only true religion? And will it thus bring world peace? Can you answer that without stating that such a question is biased, racist, nazist, hypocritical, un-PC, or any other bad thing in your book??

I suppose there's an insignificant chance that Islam is the true religion, but the probability is too small to seriously consider. The same applies to any religion. The burden of proof is on those who assert that statement.

I don't see why Islam would possibly bring world peace, so I don't think that would happen. Moslems aren't particularly more peaceful than non-Moslems, after all. (I believe the stock refuation for ____ists is that the examples of ____ism that were violent weren't true ____ists.) Again, the burden of proof is on those who would assert that.

quote: My guess is you won't answer.

You guessed poorly.

quote: because NOONE wants to talk about islam.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss Islam or any other idea. In fact, if you weren't so obsessed with your own reighteousness, you would see that I particpated in the Islam sub-debate.

I don't care for bigotry, though.

quote: I've posed many questions in here and noone have been answered.

Like what?

	20-02-2002 17:08									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo If Christians (or Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, or whathaveyou) are to assess other religions, they should at least look at it objectively. You dismissed Islam because it was spread by violence. Why don't you dismiss Christianity since it was spread by violence?

Did not dismiss it. Just critical about a certain aspect of it. In fact I think it's better to be religious than not to be. Better for ppl.

quote: I suppose there's an insignificant chance that Islam is the true religion, but the probability is too small to seriously consider. The same applies to any religion. The burden of proof is on those who assert that statement.

Logically then the burden of proof is on those who assert, ey? Including those who assert 'God is dead'.

quote: You guessed poorly.

Nah, not really. You're a BIG exception. Congrats. Was it the bold letters?

quote: I'm perfectly willing to discuss Islam or any other idea. In fact, if you weren't so obsessed with your own reighteousness, you would see that I particpated in the Islam sub-debate.

Which thread?

quote: I don't care for bigotry, though.

And who's righteous?

Defending other religions you don't believe in and feeling hurt on behalf of 1 billion muslims.... Or just on behalf of Imran?? He can defend himself and do not need knights in shining armor like yourself to rescue him.

quote: Like what?

Read the thread.

I suggest we stop here. Maybe an islam-thread would be good. Care to start one?

Don't talk back now!

	20-02-2002 18:09									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune No, you havenīt. Thatīs why I said 'leftist'. Itīs the political category I happen to despise the most. I do respect conservative hard-liners, but I really canīt stand spineless pseudo-social-democrats such as Tony Blair. Those are the guys who tend to bash religious people (because they are too sincere for their taste, I guess!), but always fail to talk about the real problems (US trying to make the world into a prison colony a la Guantanamo). As you have found out with your characteristic brilliance, I rarely bother to take the 'arguments' of pseudo-leftist pseudo-intellectuals seriously.

That's probably a good move for you, I don't think you could hold your own against a pseudo-leftist pseudo-intellectual in a debate. You are all opinion, trolls and insults. I have never seen you make a worthy point, or refute one. Maybe that's why you prefer to troll on religious topics, where proof is hard to come by, and almost any point can be held by faith, at least in the mind of the person holding it.

As for bashing religious people, perhaps you can kindly point out to me where I have done so. I have my opinions about many religions, but it is clear to me that even what I consider a savage and brutish religion can be worthy in the hands of of a worthy person. My father is a devout Christian, a former missionary and currently a professor at a Christian University. My girlfriend is a Buddhist, my best friend is a Hindu, and the best friend I have made in the last decade is a Muslim. I respect them all, and have seen how religion has been a positive feature of their lives.

Watching Lars bash Muslims for what Christians have done as well made me want to point out to him that his hypocrisy was like Stalin pointing the finger at Hitler. Perhaps you felt threatened or angered because I told some of the truth about Christianity. Tough luck, your faith is not my problem.

I like religion, I see it have a good effect much of the time. But religious tolerance is critical, or all of that power can be turned into an inquisition, or an intifada. The most dangerous in this regard are the monotheistic religions, because deep down their religions cannot abide the thought that there is another religion out there (falsely) making claim to what only their God can. This is my problem with these religions. While they can be great 90% of the time, their downside potential is of Armegheddonic (wow, coined a new and misspelled term) proportions. This is typically not the fault of the individuals who believe in them, it is structural.

	20-02-2002 18:16									#81
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Lars,

The reason that most of the other Euros aren't leaping to your defense is that they don't agree with you. Look who does.

It's hilarious to see you trying to paint some of the most thoughtful posters at Apolyton with the ignorance brush. Just as you want to bash Muslims and are blind to the same sorts of crimes amongst those of your own religion, you cannot even read or understand the arguments of your betters, and then you call them ignorant. I will credit you with producing some classic irony though.

	20-02-2002 18:51									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Lars, The reason that most of the other Euros aren't leaping to your defense is that they don't agree with you. Look who does. It's hilarious to see you trying to paint some of the most thoughtful posters at Apolyton with the ignorance brush. Just as you want to bash Muslims and are blind to the same sorts of crimes amongst those of your own religion, you cannot even read or understand the arguments of your betters, and then you call them ignorant. I will credit you with producing some classic irony though.

Comrade's posts on islam has been interesting. You just write about christianity, which NOONE initially brought up. And yes, I have read your posts on early christianity many times. You always write the same stuff.

You're a class act dismissing Comrade Tribune as nothing but a troll.

The arguments of my better? Whatever you a$$hole. I've read all of Grimbergs 25 volumes on history++, know my viking past as well, have you ever actually heard of the standard work of Snorre, or the icelandic sagas, i have a MBA from 'the Harvard' of my country.... I've read more systematic theology than you ever have....

My betters my a$$. I find you downright disgusting. united snakes of america, makes you one, huh?

Are you actually saying that Imran is the most thoughtful american in here?

Ramo isn't all that bad for a texan, but he still needs to get some experience.

You got the president you deserve. He represents you lot well. americans are not know for their intellectualism... But to you Bush is one probably. Like a certain american preacher says: Bless those darling hearts and stupid minds.

Bug off snake. Go to a certain hot place your dad believes in.

	20-02-2002 19:09									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E Bug off snake. Go to a certain hot place your dad believes in.

Sorry Lars, I am an European and this is certainly not civilized.

If you think you are better than them act so, don't claim to be.

	20-02-2002 19:13									#84
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Seems Lars is trying to break the poly arrogance record. Not a bad attempt, but difficult to rate in comparison to CivNation or MtG's consultant routine....

	20-02-2002 19:17									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E Comrade's posts on islam has been interesting. You just write about christianity, which NOONE initially brought up. And yes, I have read your posts on early christianity many times. You always write the same stuff.

Show me another example of a post I have made on Apolyton about early Christianity other than the one earlier on this thread and I won't call you a liar, and rest my case regarding your refusal or inability to understand or read other people's posts.

quote: Originally posted by Lars-E You're a class act dismissing Comrade Tribune as nothing but a troll..

He might be brilliant, but he seems to like to stir up trouble a lot, and I have never seen him do anything but call names and avoid an argument when I have challenged him.

quote: Originally posted by Lars-E The arguments of my better? Whatever you a$$hole. I've read all of Grimbergs 25 volumes on history++, know my viking past as well, have you ever actually heard of the standard work of Snorre, or the icelandic sagas, i have a MBA from 'the Harvard' of my country.... I've read more systematic theology than you ever have.... My betters my a$$. I find you downright disgusting. united snakes of america, makes you one, huh? Are you actually saying that Imran is the most thoughtful american in here? Ramo isn't all that bad for a texan, but he still needs to get some experience. You got the president you deserve. He represents you lot well. americans are not know for their intellectualism... But to you Bush is one probably. Like a certain american preacher says: Bless those darling hearts and stupid minds. Bug off snake. Go to a certain hot place your dad believes in.

Well I leave the question of your moral worth to someone in a much better position to know. Here anyone can claim to be anything they want, and it's difficult to tell whether they are what they say they are. The only thing we have to go on here is the quality of someone's posts. And in this critical respect the people you were arguing with are your betters.

Btw, when I was a freshman in college I had the pleasure of reading Snorre's work. It was fascinating, and I've been looking for a good copy in English translation for a long time, and haven't come across one. Some day.

Oh, and another thing. In my belief system only those who believe in hell have a chance of going there. So watch your step. He will.

	20-02-2002 20:04									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Show me another example of a post I have made on Apolyton about early Christianity other than the one earlier on this thread and I won't call you a liar, and rest my case regarding your refusal or inability to understand or read other people's posts.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=38947



No need to say anything here... Only that your accusations seem to drop...

Yes, this is you bettering me discussing, huh? Resorting to unfounded low-level accusations? Typical american "debating" technique when you have NO arguments?

quote: Well I leave the question of your moral worth to someone in a much better position to know. Here anyone can claim to be anything they want, and it's difficult to tell whether they are what they say they are. The only thing we have to go on here is the quality of someone's posts. And in this critical respect the people you were arguing with are your betters.

And now you're even lowering yourself to snakelevel. Now, I am christian lying. Well, I'm not believe it or not, Ripley.

I've not had the chance to be brilliant in here Noone wants to discuss islam in it's historical context. Probably due to lack of knowledge and a christianity complex.

quote: Btw, when I was a freshman in college I had the pleasure of reading Snorre's work. It was fascinating, and I've been looking for a good copy in English translation for a long time, and haven't come across one. Some day.

Snorre is just a humble beginning.

Read the sagas that explain how we the vikings discovered your country. And killed some of you. Helge Ingstad's latest is nice to read too.

And all the icelandic sagas are brilliant IMO.

quote: Oh, and another thing. In my belief system only those who believe in hell have a chance of going there.

Convenient. Thunk it up yourself?

quote: So watch your step. He will.

He talks to me everyday. And I'm doing fine

And you? Not been redeemed by the blood? Sorry, but I have to warn you. It's biblical. Hell and all its horrors await. And yes in this life too. You're cursed I'm sure you know. Those who will not believe are, and that's biblical too. Yes, of course I can come up with scriptures. A lot of them. How about some lenghty theology stuff on it?

	20-02-2002 20:13									#87
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Didn't claim to be better Grave. sikander claimed his posts to be better and all of the american "intellectuals" as well.

Eastern Europe consider yourself out. You need to pull that iron curtain.

I c, Roland, you read my post on Austrians. Care to answer why you're the most arrogant ppl in the world? Yes, I'm referring to the poll. It has nothing to do with Hitler being born there and Anschluss?

	20-02-2002 20:19									#88
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"Yes, I'm referring to the poll."

What was the question in the poll ? Somehow I doubt it was "how arrogant are you".

	20-02-2002 20:22									#89
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The Austrians are the proudest ppl on earth. You know this because you have asked about it before

	20-02-2002 20:35									#90
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"You know this because you have asked about it before"

What have I asked, and how come I should "know" that ?

Simply specify what was asked in the poll and what the results were if you want me to explain the result.