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MarkG
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Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see
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http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meas...reut/index.html
quote:
DIYARBAKIR, Turkey (Reuters) -- Turkey's broadcasting watchdog has suspended broadcasts for one year by a local television station that played Kurdish-language music videos.
The move, on Monday, comes despite a constitutional amendment to allow Kurdish broadcasts.
Turkey altered its constitution in October to allow Kurdish-language television and radio broadcasts, part of a drive to meet European Union human rights standards, but it has yet to change the relevant laws.
"Broadcasts by Gun TV have been stopped for 365 days for playing music pieces with Kurdish lyrics," Turkey's Radio and Television High Council (RTUK) said in a statement.
"(Gun TV) was in violation of (laws) barring broadcasts that incite society to violence, terrorism and ethnic separatism and incur feelings of hatred in society," the watchdog said.
An RTUK spokeswoman said the watchdog expects Gun TV to file an appeal once lawmakers make Turkey's legal code conform with the constitutional changes, but said the ban could still stand.
"These are not just romantic songs, but strongly ideological songs," she said.
The EU has said Turkey must improve its human rights record, including expanding cultural and linguistic rights for its 12 million Kurds, if it is to begin membership talks with the bloc.
RTUK often imposes short suspensions on television and radio broadcasters for various infringements but rarely imposes bans for as long as a year.
Gun TV broadcast rallies and meetings organized by the People's Democracy Party (HADEP), Turkey's only legal Kurdish party, which faces possible closure for its alleged ties to Kurdish separatists.
"The decision was completely political. There were no sorts of 'separatist' programs being broadcast. It's a one-sided decision," said Nevzat Bingol, Gun TV's owner.
Police raided Bingol's Gun Radyo in November, stopping the radio station's broadcasts and seizing studio equipment.
Separately, authorities have cracked down in recent weeks on a campaign calling for Kurdish-language instruction in schools.
Police have detained hundreds of university students and parents who signed petitions calling for Kurdish in the classroom. Turkey fears greater Kurdish cultural rights could prompt restive Kurds to demand greater autonomy.
Security forces have fought Kurdish separatists in a 17-year-long conflict that has claimed 30,000 lives, mainly civilians in the southeast.
Violence has all but ceased since the 1999 capture of Kurdish guerrilla commander Abdullah Ocalan. Ocalan, now on death row for treason, has called on his fighters to withdraw from Turkey and seek rights for Kurds through political means. |
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Lars-E
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The muslim Turkeys (read Turks) are supressing the Kurds. When is the genocide coming? Are they gonna repeat what they did to the Armenians in 1915?
Angry like a Turk is an expression in English as well? Any Turks in here?
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Drekkus
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Rufus T. Firefly lives in Turkey.
Is this serious concern on MarkG's side on the welbeing of the Kurds, or just Turkey bashing?
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Lars-E
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Greeks dont like Turks. I think he's turkey-trolling.
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Drekkus
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The christians haven't been doing much better in the past.
Are the Kurds muslim? Is their struggle for a seperate state different from the Balkan struggles? Not trolling, just asking.
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Lars-E
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quote:
Originally posted by Drekkus
The christians haven't been doing much better in the past.
Are the Kurds muslim? Is their struggle for a seperate state different from the Balkan struggles? Not trolling, just asking. |
That is if they were true christians and not for political reasons etc.
Some Kurds are christians. The Turks don't like evangelizing in their country. They feel uneasy toward christians due to the Armenian genocide. Armenians are mostly nominal christians. Or should I say were, considering the Turks almost killed them off. 1,5 million. Great crime against humanity.
Why shouldn't the Kurds have their own state?
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:17
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Turkey's Kurdish policy is just plain stupid, brutal, and awful. The Copenhagen criteria require revision of the policies before Turkey can ascend to the EU; this will be a big setback, obviously, and rightly so.
Turkey's broacasting oversight ministry, RTUK, has also been shutting down other channels recently, though not for political reasons. One channel was pulled off the air a couple of weeks ago for broadcasting indecent material after midnight (and I missed it!); they were shut down for 10 days, and lost a bundle of money. I've no idea what the stepped-up surveillence is about.
To contextualize the Kurdish problem, though: Turkey's never gotten on well with the Kurds, but problems intensified after the Gulf War, when Kurdish refugees spilled over the Iraqi border in large numbers. At that point, demands for ethnic autonomy were stepped up, and terrorism was used to promote the Kurdish agenda. The Kurds are thus roughly analogous to the Palestinians in some respects.
Finally, as a Christian living in Turkey, I'm unaware of any Christian repression here. It is the case that the Turks recognize the Catholic church and various Orthodox churches (Greek, Russian, Armenian, Syrian), but not Protestant denominations; this seems to date from the beginnings of the Ottoman empire (i.e., pre-Reformation), when the existing Christian sects were "grandfathered" in. I do frequently meet American Protestant prosthetyzers (or, to use the British phrase I prefer, God-botherers) here, though, and it wouldn't surprise me if the state were impatient with them. I know I am.
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Lars-E
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quote:
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Finally, as a Christian living in Turkey, I'm unaware of any Christian repression here. It is the case that the Turks recognize the Catholic church and various Orthodox churches (Greek, Russian, Armenian, Syrian), but not Protestant denominations; this seems to date from the beginnings of the Ottoman empire (i.e., pre-Reformation), when the existing Christian sects were "grandfathered" in. I do frequently meet American Protestant prosthetyzers (or, to use the British phrase I prefer, God-botherers) here, though, and it wouldn't surprise me if the state were impatient with them. I know I am. |
Not really talking about severe repression, but that you'll be given the evil eye if you evangelize.
Not recognizing protestants I'd say that Turkish authorities are God-botherers.
Also closing churches due to governmental criticism is over the line as well.
I like freedom of religion. How about you?
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Lars-E
Not really talking about severe repression, but that you'll be given the evil eye if you evangelize.
Not recognizing protestants I'd say that Turkish authorities are God-botherers.
Also closing churches due to governmental criticism is over the line as well.
I like freedom of religion. How about you? |
Yes, well, I'm fond of freedom of religion, too, but most countries don't have it, and Turkey's no exception. In fact, Turkey's status, so widely trumpeted after 9/11, as "the Muslim world's only secular state" is only possible because the government monitors all religious groups, frowns on all prosletyzing, and spends most of its time cracking down not on Christians but on Islamic fundamentalists. The only religions that seem to run into trouble here are the ones that run around trying to convert people; among Christians, that's the Protestants. The Catholics and Orthodox churches don't appear to have any need to augment their numbers with Turks, and are thus left alone and treated with respect. As for the God-botherers, they knew what they were getting into when they came; heck, it's why they came. Besides, the Turks are extraordinarily gracious hosts; but showing up to a 98% Muslim country and saying, effectively, "we think you're all going to Hell unless you change your beliefs to match ours, and we're hear to spread that message" is pretty much the height of arrogance and the soul of being a very bad guest. If someone said that in my house, I'd certainly show them the door.
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Lars-E
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quote:
Besides, the Turks are extraordinarily gracious hosts; but showing up to a 98% Muslim country and saying, effectively, "we think you're all going to Hell unless you change your beliefs to match ours, and we're hear to spread that message" is pretty much the height of arrogance and the soul of being a very bad guest. If someone said that in my house, I'd certainly show them the door. |
I'm sure the turks are very gracious to you.
So all protestants in turkey are foreigners? I don't think so. Are you saying that protestants should be expelled? Reminds me of the greek ostracising criminals.
quote:
Some religion huh? Let's keep our bigotry out of this, shall we? |
This was related to the fact that islam throughout history has been spread thru violence. And if that is due to the content of that religion then I don't care very much for it.
Funny that you don't climb up on your soapbox when christianity is degraded. Is it because degrading christianity is PC? Some americans think it's a sign of intellectualism to do so.
Critizing islam is taboo. Heck, I could get a fatwa on my head for doing so if i was well known. And this attitude of many muslims has nothing WHATSOEVER to do with what they believe in?
I have christian friends that fled from Iran due to their pastors getting hanged. Yes, they seem to practise a very tolerant religion in that country. And there are many others.
quote:
No, you are an American living in Turkey. Big difference there. You're untouchable. |
Good point. Firefly don't care as long as he, the catholic-, and greek-orthodox church are allowed to carry on with dead religion. As long as that happens he needs not face up to new religious thought. Yeah, it can be a sweat.
quote:
In Nigeria, in the 60's, millions of black christians were massacred by the muslim majority. I bet you 100:1 that NOT ONE white christian got hurt by this. |
This happens all the time all over the world, but is hardly noticed by the secular press. In fact, there has never been so many martyrs in history.
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:17
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axi - Nobody's slaughtering Christians here, of any color, and Americans are not untouchable -- ask the American fundies. And this is not about Christianity, or even Protestantism; it's about prosletyzing. As a small "d" democrat, I believe in freedom of religion and think the Turkish attitude is wrong. But I find any religion which has, as one of it precepts, the need to actively convert others to be wholly repugnant.
Lars-E - Protestants shouldn't be -- and aren't -- expelled; heck, I was just at a Protestant ceremony last month. From my point of view, prosletyzers shouldn't be expelled either -- but that's not how Turkey runs the place. What get's me is that the fundies deliberately choose to come to a place where they know their activities will get them into touble, and then they whine about it when they do. I repect the integrity of civil disobedience, but whining about it afterwards kind of defeats the purpose.
Meanwhile, I "face up to" new religious thought all the time; in America, land of looney-tune Protestantism, it's impossible not to. Frankly, I find it ignorant and deluded, but that's just me. As I said, I think the fundies have a human right to preach; their just way, way down on my list of people to worry about.
Finally, your assertion that Islam was spread through violence, and this makes it different from Christianity, is either comically or tragically ignorant. If that's what's being preached here in Anatolia -- which played host in part to all 4 major crusades -- it's a wonder the fundies aren't being laughed right off the land mass.
Last edited by Rufus T. Firefly on 14-02-2002 at 12:33
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:17
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Lars,
if you think Christianity was spread primarily through the persuasive skills of powerless missionaries you really need to read a lot of history. Only in it's early Roman history was it a religion of the weak, and that didn't last long. The vast majority of Europe was Christianized by power. That power could be missionaries from the Roman Empire arriving at a Pagan kingdom and serving as emmisaries for the empire as well. They convince the King that if he were a Christian the Romans would not make war upon him, and that there would be better relations between them in general. Being a Pagan and not perhaps grasping the wicked tenets of a monotheistic religion the King converts, and tribe or nation 'X' becomes christian, at least in name.
Nobles who want to maintain blood ties to the royal family must decide whether to convert or become out of royal favor. They convert too. This is where things tended to stop. Christianity was a religion of the elite in most of Europe, which is why non chrisitians were called heathens (ie those of the heath aka peasants). It took another 1000 years for Christianity to effectively gain it's complete grip upon the population of Europe. This was done in a number of ways, from the relatively mild example of building cathedrals to overawe the peasantry to the incredibly savage exploits of 'Saint' Olaf and his ilk (convert or die right now). The witch hysteria which raged off and on for several centuries was another manifestation of how terror was used to eliminate the 'wicked' when all else failed.
Of course this is just in Europe. Everywhere else the missionaries came with soldiers, disease and conquest. Again the amount of savagery varied from none to outright genocide. Christianity and Islam are bloody brothers whose own complete intolerance for everyone else's point of view makes them blind to their own crimes and hypersensitive to anyone else's. Lars is a great example of this principle in action.
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Lars-E
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quote:
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Finally, your assertion that Islam was spread through violence, and this makes it different from Christianity, is either comically or tragically ignorant. If that's what's being preached here in Anatolia -- which played host in part to all 4 major crusades -- it's a wonder the fundies aren't being laughed right off the land mass. |
I was not comparing it to christianity. And islam was spread thru violence. Denying that is either history revisionism and/or ignorant.
Suggesting that massmurder might be comical shows the indifference and low value you place on life.
I'm not talking about Anatolia, but the history of islam in general.
quote:
As I said, I think the fundies have a human right to preach; their just way, way down on my list of people to worry about. |
You and many others in here don't worry about fundies. That's what you say. Yet in every other post you complain about them.
quote:
Lars,
if you think Christianity was spread primarily through the persuasive skills of powerless missionaries you really need to read a lot of history. |
Oh brother!
How come americans don't read the posts they're supposedly answering?
I was talking about islam. Period.
I have read 25 volumes++ of world history. Carl Grimberg is probably totally unknown in the usa.
Nice of you to bring up christian history. Firefly and then you picked up on that, not me.
If I mention islam and wanna discuss islamic history why do you feel a need to divert the subject? Have you nothing to say about islam? Or are you afraid of getting your heads chopped off? Or do you feel it's the greatest belief system on earth? They way you jump to it's defence... Or is it just convenient to bring up christianity? Criticize it so you can be PC with the in-crowd who never give much effort into thinking for themselves. It's funny that if you criticize one religion the next thing you're gonna hear is something about christianity. Why is that? Why do you bring up other religions when there was no comparing of religions before the last posts (Firefly and Sikander's)? The history of islam itself is interesting enuff and should be discussed in here. There has not been much of that at Apolyton. Why? Is it a touchy subject to bring up? And God forbid: not PC? We must be PC 
Last edited by Lars-E on 15-02-2002 at 17:15
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12-02-2002 13:30
There are 55 mill of them mostly moslems (misspelled that). Very few christians. There's only one bible school in all of Turkey and it has 15 students! It's located in Ephesus.
. People can believe whatever they want, but don't try and tell me about your love for God, 'cause I cannot be held responsible for my actions when another one of those jokers comes up to me.
Right, Turkey should just let the support of insurrection all they want. 
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