01-04-2002 04:09									#31
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Gar,

The tiles are all 120x60, which the program rescales to 80x40. I am not certain why this is - it was in the code I inherited. The tin (or other resource) tile should be 120x60.

Cheers

	01-04-2002 04:13									#32
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Hmm, personally I don't like Gar's tin so much. I still insist that for minerals, the element name should be provided, inside a bullion of different color and/or shape.

Zn, Fe, Cu, Au at least should have letters on them, because distinguishing the bullions alone is difficult.

As for horses, I would suggest placing just a black horse's head on the map, which is easy to make and distinguishable.

At this point, functionality comes above prettiness.

	01-04-2002 10:09									#33
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Axi,
Maybe you can explain what you are thinking? I can't see how a bar of a metallic color with element letters will be more recognizeable/useful than a graphic which attempts to convey an object made of the material representing the letter for the first name of the resource as needed.

quote: At this point, functionality comes above prettiness.

Can you help me understand what this means?


Gary,
I am toying around with more graphics and will have additions tomorrow with 120 x 60 graphics. How is it best I get these to you? Put them on my site or?

	01-04-2002 17:02									#34
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Hi All:

quote: The tiles are all 120x60, which the program rescales to 80x40. I am not certain why this is - it was in the code I inherited.

My old code, as in demo 4, used 120x60 tiles that were zoomed in the code to become any of a variety of sizes, one of which was 80x40. If we don't end up using the 120x60 size for anything, we should do things going forward in the resolution in which it will be shown to the player since the quality of what the player sees will then be vastly improved. Now that the xml image specification is in there, it would be relatively easy to put in a tag that says if an image is based on 120 width or 80-width graphics. We could then slowly migrate to the preferred size using mixed tiles for the next several demos. Does this make sense to everyone? Gary, how much work would it be? Seems not much to me, but you're the one there on the ground.

The bullion-with-chemical-symbol doesn't do anything for me either, why are you insisting Axi? I realize that using T for tin is Anglocentric, but using Fe for iron will mean absolutely nothing to anyone who hasn't taken chemistry... I also think the ingots will say a little more to the player than a pile of bullion, YMMV.

Gar, I checked out your demo site again and saw the dress and horse images. If you were just trying out sizing and aren't worried about refinements yet then you can ignore what's below. As they are, I think they would gain from more color and highlights. FE Fiera did a pretty credible horse as part of the chariot icon that you might want to take a look at.

	01-04-2002 19:11									#35
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I'll go back and revisit the images with more highlights and try the horse model rotated more when I render it. I've also realized I had the output scaling goofed in my renderer such that the widths of the images are 75% of what they should be. I will look for what Fiera had on a horse. But I haven't been freehand sketching these, and the horse 3d model is pretty robust just need to nail the coloration and rotation I think.

Ah, the anglo-centric comment! Got it. I missed the whole internationalization angle. I'll try to factor that in.

	01-04-2002 21:32									#36
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The tin looks really nice.

I like better using only one tin can, instead of forming a T with several of them, the tin can details get lost when the cans are so small. If the letters are desired, maybe it would be better to just use normal letters with the color being the same as the resource color.
I also think the image is a little too dominant in the map square. Could it be smaller?

Dunno if my opinions will make any difference, I get the impression you guys already finished these discussions.

	02-04-2002 01:55									#37
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I am very strongly against the notion of forming symbols into English language intitials. In any case the symbol for tin is Sn, not T.

I have gone to some trouble to keep the door open for internationalization of Clash. I would not like to shut that door in this uunnecessary way.

In a similar vein, I do not feel that using the physics symbols for the elements is productive. The squares are too small to read text anyway. Also, that is imposing an ethno-centric limitation on the art. We would need different tiles for Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Arabic, and so forth.

Cheers

	02-04-2002 04:12									#38
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My main qualm is that the "ingot T" is not visible enough. Also remember that ingots of other metals will be hard to distingush and it will also be difficult to create the correct initials. What if tin looks good and iron doesn't?

Gar, whenever you update your page, please post a warning inside one of your posts.

	02-04-2002 04:37									#39
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OK, this sounds like a good set of ideas with which to work. Sorry, Gary, being new to this the internationalization angle was lost on me.

I think very recognizeable images will go furthest. I will also make contrasts and bright highlights a priority. We can see how these work with a goodly set...

For Tin:
The tin can with a jagged partially open lid
For Cloth:
A pretty colored dress
For Gold:
A Sun shaped medallion with chain
For Silver:
A shiny tea pot
For Salt:
A pile of spilled salt
For Copper:
A copper cook pot
For Iron:
An anvil
Horse:
Horse
Fish:
Fish
Game:
Pheasant
Metalwares?:
knife, fork & spoon
Special Evil Bunny :
Evil Bunny picture

One question, does the double yellow & black border look useful?

I've been kinda updating the site as I go, but will wait til I have stuff ready for critique and update post here at such times; or on the econ thread if it is related to that.:

	02-04-2002 05:33									#40
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I think the yellow-black double border does help draw attention to the figure. I guess I'd need to see it in action with several examples to be more certain, but it seems a good start!

I have an objection to FE using a tin can for tin... Specifically a tin can is a nineteenth century object, and I suspect it will bother people to have it showing up representing tin in ancient times. Also similar types of cans are made with steel and aluminum nowadays, perhaps leading to confusion. I've got similar objections to the tea pot. All the others seem reasonable.

Then again taking things eliminated by Gary's, Axi's and my dislikes, we may not have anything good left

Just a thought... Since the importance of tin is in creating bronze we could use a bronze sword or something for tin. Of course this does leave us open to the criticism that nobody makes swords out of tin, but at least it would make clear why tin is important. If we were to use a coin for gold, then the medallion idea could be used for silver.

	02-04-2002 05:51									#41
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Personally I do not think that identifying the resource from an icon is important, as long as it makes clear that there is a resource present. Then clicking on the square will give the details in the details frame. On this basis, a mine entrance would just about do it.

I certainly don't think that a tin can conveys the idea of the use of tin which, as Mark says, was most important as an ingredient of bronze (when alloyed with copper). Even in more recent times I believe the most important use was in making solder (alloyed with lead).

Cheers

	02-04-2002 10:14									#42
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I've just updated the site with new images.

When something works, it really works. I tried out Gary's suggestion about Mines, and I'm convinced. I have a hard time imagining doing anything else, now. They work for immersion, I think the colored lumps are recognizeable enough. Now the challenge for the non-animal ones will be to make other images that integrate into the map.

I've made useable 120x60s of these linked on the site, and introduced naming convention. The resource files are named:
RES_resourcename.gif

After wandering through the JAR file, thinking similar conventions might be useful for all other graphics?

Now my mind is churning for other resources...
Metalworks - a smithy
Cloth - A loom and/or spinning wheel
Salt - a dry lake bed type salt mine with a pile of salt (may add this tonight)

I'll wait on the other two, but dying to see if I can make the salt one look right.

	02-04-2002 17:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Thomas Personally I do not think that identifying the resource from an icon is important, as long as it makes clear that there is a resource present. Then clicking on the square will give the details in the details frame. On this basis, a mine entrance would just about do it.

Hey Gary:

I consider needing to click on a square to see which type of mined resource is present to be unacceptable. Are we going to make the player click all over the map to find the tin that they need? There are certainly alternatives, like having a resource locator, or dedicated resource map, in which what is where is indicated in some direct fashion. But they will not be available for quite some time I expect, so putting identifiable icons on the main map is important at least for now IMO.

Hi Gar:

While I think the mine-with-lumps concept might work, IMO the present demo versions from your web site at 80x40 will be virtually indistinguishable once put on a map with different colors and units on it. I can see players cursing and squinting, at least with the current versions. I think the color or shape needs to be unique enough for people to see immediately as they glance over the map. For that reason I still prefere the older concept of unique images. But if I'm the only one that things the mine approach doesn't work I'll just have to grin and bear it .

	02-04-2002 18:10									#44
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The mine entrances look much better!
I like the idea of distinguishing between the mines with different coloured lumps outside it.
How about making an icon like the a mine entrance? You know, two horizontal wooden poles with one wooden pole above, and coloring the opening with the color of the metal. That would make the difference between various metal stand out more, but the concept (mine) would still be recognizeable. Another idea would be to fill the entrance with bigger lumps of the metal.

The gold medallion I did not like, maybe just a mine with gold would be better.

Another idea is having a spoon like the ones used in forgerys to contain melted metal that is poured down into a pool. The pool and the metal flow would have the color that differentiates the different metals.

Color

	02-04-2002 19:07									#45
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I tried to go back as primitive as I could on these, which is why I skipped even the classic wooden beam mine entrance part. There is in general something to maintaining the visual integrity of the map.

I may have been overly convinced. One key piece of data I'm missing is the relative density of resources; as in, what percent of squares will have a special resource? This is important, imo, in what sort of graphics is needed.

Also, is fog of war an overlay or does that need two versions of a resources (dark & light) or will resources remain bright in fog areas?

Once I know the density I will put together a map screen with resources distributed to how it looks, or these could roll into a demo?

Still wide open to arguments any way, and I don't mind trying various variations.

	03-04-2002 01:10									#46
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This is what I mean:
axi's specials

You can see gold, iron, copper, coal and uranium in some of sas's tiles.

These are definitely more visible and comprehensible than Gar's icons. They aren't so beautiful, but they do their job.

	03-04-2002 02:11									#47
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Mark:

quote: I consider needing to click on a square to see which type of mined resource is present to be unacceptable.

Unacceptable requires the specification of an acceptable alternative. Do you have one? Anyway it doesn't matter because Gar's mines are pretty good.

quote: There are certainly alternatives, like having a resource locator

I will code this today.

quote: While I think the mine-with-lumps concept might work, IMO the present demo versions from your web site at 80x40 will be virtually indistinguishable once put on a map with different colors and units on it.

They seem pretty clear to me, and much more identifiable than the military units.

colorr:

quote: The mine entrances look much better!

I agree.

quote: Another idea is having a spoon like the ones used in forgerys to contain melted metal that is poured down into a pool. The pool and the metal flow would have the color that differentiates the different metals.

This is a way to identify processing plants, not the source of the ore.

Gar:

quote: One key piece of data I'm missing is the relative density of resources; as in, what percent of squares will have a special resource? This is important, imo, in what sort of graphics is needed.

This is critical information which only Mark can provide.

quote: Also, is fog of war an overlay or does that need two versions of a resources (dark & light) or will resources remain bright in fog areas?

The fog of war is implemented by dulling the colour in the final map square, including all known characteristics such as cities and resources (but not units, which are not seen).

I would imagine that a square has to be prospected in some way to discover whether resources are present, but I am unaware of any discussion on this issue.

Axi:

quote: You can see gold, iron, copper, coal and uranium in some of sas's tiles.

Now we need the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Hindi, Arabic, Russian and Greek versions please.

Cheers

	03-04-2002 03:20									#48
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Oh, come on Mr. Thomas! The chemical symbols are used internationally!

These signs/bullions can of course be 3D but it was hard for me to do them in a reasonable amount of time.

The colors make the bullions distinguishable even when they are zoomed out, in the browser (this will screw the alignment, but try it nevertheless).

	03-04-2002 05:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Gar One key piece of data I'm missing is the relative density of resources; as in, what percent of squares will have a special resource? This is important, imo, in what sort of graphics is needed.

Hi Gar, my expectation is that specials would be between 5 and 10% of tiles. But that could change on the upside depending on playtesting. I would not rule it out that every square could have its special at this point, though I think its not likely.

quote: The chemical symbols are used internationally!

Axi, there are lots of thing used internationally by specialist communities. That doesn't make them suitable for a game played by everyday people.

quote: They seem pretty clear to me, and much more identifiable than the military units.

Wow, Gary, our perceptions must differ Radically. The military units each have a unique shape and mixture of colors. The mine ones have a few dabs of different shades on them. I can't remember which game, but something I've played had similar resource icons to the ones proposed. I was forever cursing and squinting at the map to see what the h*ll that particular one was. I have Never had that problem with our units icons, and don't forsee that happening as their number increases.

But anyway there are proposals available that put a much larger swath of the descriptive color on the icons, which should be sufficient. Since the icons can be swapped out using the xml file, if I'm the only one that's unhappy, I can use Axi's or another alternative set with relative ease!

quote: This is a way to identify processing plants, not the source of the ore.

Just for the record, I currently have no plans for processing plants for metals. But I guess since the econ framework allows two-step industries (or even n-step processing industries) we should avoid processing-based icons for ores if possible.

quote: I would imagine that a square has to be prospected in some way to discover whether resources are present, but I am unaware of any discussion on this issue.

There has already been some discussion. Probably its in an old map-creation thread. But I would like to ignore the issue for quite some time if possible.

	03-04-2002 08:35									#50
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quote: The chemical symbols are used internationally!

They may be used internationally, but are they understood internationally? Perhaps 5% of the world's population knows that Au means gold. About 90% knows it comes out of the ground and is yellow.

Which chemical symbol would you use for oil? Or even salt? Or marble or amber (both important export products in ancient times)? Or diamond (which is different from charcoal)?

quote: The military units each have a unique shape and mixture of colors.

No they don't, elements have images, and they are not unique. I never quite know what a particular unit symbol is going to be and always have to click on the square to get the information from the task force frame. To be blunt, I would be hugely happier if the images were a characteristic of the unit rather than the elements. There is no reason why this should not be the case, simplifying code and giving a much clearer message to the player.

In any case we have far too few unit incons to make them very useful at present.

quote: There has already been some discussion. Probably its in an old map-creation thread. But I would like to ignore the issue for quite some time if possible.

Does this mean they should all be visible? That's OK, now I have to find out how they are recorded, if they are recorded, so I can put them in the scenario file and then display them.

	03-04-2002 11:58									#51
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My site is updated with a worldmap with resources on it, maybe 5% distribution or so. The mine images are updated with more color and variation in the ore placement. Also added wood beams (think they were colorr's suggestion) to the entrance for the silver and gold for extra identification. I placed some resources in dark squares and faded them.

Going to move to economics screen samples for next couple days to allow the various perspectives on resources to ferment.

-Gar

	03-04-2002 19:18									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Thomas No they don't, elements have images, and they are not unique. I never quite know what a particular unit symbol is going to be and always have to click on the square to get the information from the task force frame. To be blunt, I would be hugely happier if the images were a characteristic of the unit rather than the elements. There is no reason why this should not be the case, simplifying code and giving a much clearer message to the player.

Oh, That's what you were on about Gary. Your proposed mod is fine by me. Provided Laurent agrees I've got no problem with it. But still we will have to show an icon for the TF on the map, which will be the most-representative unit in the TF. Could you bring this up in the units graphics thread, and we'll take it from there?

All Resources should all be visible at this point, as I think you'd figured out.

Hi Gar:

The 5% distribution looks like it should work. I am worried that fog-darkened versions of one metal will look like a different (darker but same tone) metal. FE silver darkened might look a lot like tin.

quote: Going to move to economics screen samples for next couple days to allow the various perspectives on resources to ferment.

Sounds Great. I admit to being more concerned about getting an approach for the econ gui worked out than on the resource icons now that you've provided some reasonably serviceable ones.

	03-04-2002 22:39									#53
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I think the resource map mentioned by Mark in an earlier post is a good idea. It would help to keep the ordinary map clean, and still have large and clear resource icons. The resource map does not have to account for fog of war either, since resources do not move around.

The resource panel could also contain a panel with explanations of the various icons (which would be almost necessary if you choose to use the chemical symbols, but could also be helpful if you use graphical icons).

	04-04-2002 05:39									#54
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Here is a sneak preview of the new Carthago Delenda Est scenario, with province boundaries and coastlines.

Cheers

Attachment: screenshot1.jpg
This has been downloaded 95 time(s).

	04-04-2002 15:33									#55
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quote: Which chemical symbol would you use for oil? Or even salt? Or marble or amber (both important export products in ancient times)? Or diamond (which is different from charcoal)?

I meant the chemical symbols to be used only for the metals! An oil derrick can be used for oil, a diamond for diamonds. These are distinguishable - two different lumps of ore or unmarked ingots are not.

quote: They may be used internationally, but are they understood internationally? Perhaps 5% of the world's population knows that Au means gold. About 90% knows it comes out of the ground and is yellow

Okay, then our game will serve an educational purpose. All models in Clash contain stuff not known to the wide public, which anyone who wants to play will have to learn about. F.e. I didn't know that ironclads ever existed before I played civ2.

And btw, where I come from, we learn this stuff at the age of 14, the latest. It is really elementary knowledge.

Mr. Thomas, that pic of yours looks good!

	29-05-2002 06:46									#56
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Well since Gar has vanished for more than a month, Perhaps some alternative tiles for the specials he had done are in order...

IIRC we never actually got the tiles, although maybe it'd be possible to pull them off his web site. So this is another thing you could look into Twinge.

	22-12-2002 19:18									#57
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I'm trying to get economic specials (gold, cloth) put back to function in the next week or so. For that we need images. Anyone that wants to take a shot at some specials images is very much encouraged to do so! Please skim the discussion above, where the topic wound up quite some time ago.

We probably need a place/way to show specials that doesn't screw up the appearance of citys, many of which will have specials.

Thanks,

Mark

	22-12-2002 23:04									#58
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We also need images for walls. From wooden stockades to stone walls. Laurent, how many gradiations do you think we need?

	23-12-2002 00:32									#59
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How many tiles can the game engine handle per terrain type?

	23-12-2002 02:55									#60
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Che, the number of tiles is not limited. (Although that looks great, you must understand it costs performance, but I don't think it is a bottleneck) I don't know how overlay things are handled to be honest, but knowing how graphics are integrated, you can add as many as you want to.
For walls in ancient times we could have two or three walls: wooden, (packed earth and wood,) stone wall. The middle one is optional. Depending on geography, I think different walls were used (more bricks in dry warm countries, mixed stone and wood in Gaul). Having two graphics for such an intermediate wall would probably be too much in terms of detail.