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Goingonit
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Toronto, Canada - AECCP member
Apr 2001
time: 00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
That's ridiculous. In N. America Jews aren't subject to any more racism than any other minority group, and less than almost any other. They don't deserve refugee status for very real reasons, namely that they aren't subject to any widespread discrimination. |
There is a country for every minority group except blacks (and they tried to make one w/ Liberia  ). Jews were a stateless people for many years, now they have a state where they are in the majority. I would in fact argue that every single group should have somewhere where they could go in cases of dire need. Jews are just lucky enough to have one.
Also, there are Jews everywhere (well, not as much anymore, because the ones in Europe got killed or left, the ones in the ME got killed or left, the ones in Yemen left, and the ones in Ethiopia left). But you cannot argue that there is not antisemitism in the world!
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:17
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quote:
Our immigration laws are there to ensure Israel as a jewish state. Being a sovereign country, Israel has the right to decide so. |
What does that right imply? That I can't question those policies?
What else does Israel have the right to do? Murder non-Jews? If not, why?
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You apparently have a problem with Israel being a jewish state and not a state of it's citizens, which again you have no bussiness dealing with. |
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Given your political views, I would assume yes. |
You assumed correctly in this case.
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However not liberal societies do not give thier citizens the information to choose and let them be converted into terrorists. |
Too many double-negatives. What are you trying to say?
The interpretation I see doesn't particularly make much sense...
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You would see that in liberal countries there is ever far wider public support for terrorism. |
There's more support for terror in a more liberal nation like, say, the Canada, than an authoritarian nation like, say, Iran?
The only such coorelation, IMO, is that the beliefs of people in authoritarian societies more reflects that of their gov't.
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For instance, as one muslim leader said, there are schools teaching martyrdom in England. |
Source, please.
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If I misunderstand you, feel free to elaborate why england isn't free, |
Keep in mind that there is no Bill of Rights in England. There is no explicit freedom of speech in the UK, like there is in the US.
As for other freedoms, the polices, has some fairly  powers. I might add that a lot of that is due to the IRA's terror.
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and what freedom means to you. |
Depends upon what you mean by freedom. I advocate political freedom (libertarianism) and social freedom (socialism).
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Values which are not defined in the Torah |
I meant those that are also shared by Jewish atheists.
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And ofcourse there are legitimate disagreements about Torah writings, and they are dealt with nicely, mostly in a liberal fashion, though lately they've been not so liberal. |
Why don't you kick out the dissenters? Doesn't this undermine your state's Jewishness?
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You ignore the fact that jews do share their culture very much so more than the germans or english. |
I think most American Jews are closer to standard American culture than the hodgpodge of cultures you have down in Israel. The only distinctions most of my Jewish friends have with other Americans are last names, and to a much lesser degree, appearances.
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And they lived in much worse conditions of travel than the 15th century, until the 19th and 20th century. |
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Until the 18th century in western europe, 19th century in the middle east and north africa, and the 20th century in eastern europe, Jews practically lived in their own secluded society - whether by will or by force, often to protect them from others wanting to harm them. |
You're living in the past. Times have changed. 
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You see them as if they were just as free and culturally different as a white person in europe. |
In the second half of the 20th century, absolutely. Certainly today.
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Nope.
It's based on race/ethnicity/heritage.
But in no way is it racist. |
From dictionary.com:
"racist
adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist] "
Don't tempt me.
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It's you who try to prevent people from living as they want. |
If their choice of lifestyle is to coerce others, damn straight I'll oppose them.
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They are just as Israeli as Israeli Jews are. |
Uh huh. Except for minor things like having to buy houses at only certain places.
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On what grounds does America decide that Americans are more worthy than non-Americans? |
Education and wealth. And I completely oppose the US' authoritian, disgusting immigration policy, mind you.
It is true. Consider the US, for instance. Businesses almost invariably close early on Sundays because of the Christian custom.
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Without a proper law for keeping a holiday, there could be great abuse of worker rights. And it's best to keep a united day of holiday, to prevent chaos when different shops are closed on different days. |
That's a good thing to some extent. I might want a service on Saturday. I might want to work on Saturday. Why should you stop me?
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It's not a religious law, but rather a social one.
Saturday is chosen, it being a jewish holiday. |
I thought y'all go to the Synagogue on Saturday...
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For instance, all the social laws originating in the bible and talmud.
Many other laws from the Talmud and such. |
Why would Jewish atheists automatically follow them? Even if the law isn't directly related to praying, it's still is derived from religion. Why would they be used to a Talmudic legal code if they came from, for instance, the US?
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The rest of the world should have better things to do then telling us how to run our country thank you very much. |
Like it or not, there's a world outside Israel, and it would stand a better chance if it didn't piss everyone else off. I'm just stating a simple fact.
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You are not any kind of a higher moral body, or any international body which Israel accepts. |
And?
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If tommorow Israel, or any other country for that matter, decides that it automatically grants RoR to people who eat salami sandwiches, neither you nor I have any say about it. |
And?
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You are angry at me for "forcing my views on the world" |
I didn't know you can vote. I'm actually angry with your gov't's forcing its views on others.
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while You are trying to force your views on me and the Israelis. |
I'm a 17 year-old University student living across the world from you! How can I possibly force my views on you or your countrymen?
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We get along fine with our views and our religion as part of our state. I don't see where is it your responsibility or right, to make decisions for the Israeli/Jewish people or government. |
Get some perspective, man! This is an online messageboard, not the world summitt on what's to be done with Israel.
Your right, it isn't my right or responsibility to force the Israeli people what to do. Just like it isn't yours or your state's.
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I also don't see how you have any moral justification for being angry at Jews/ Israelis for the way they choose to live thier lives in their own country. |
And I also don't understand this national sovereignty argument you keep repeating. "Can't criticize my country because of national sovereignty." What's this magical thing, and where does it get its power? It's like a religion!
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If they have the right to selectively allow people in based solely on their ethnicity/religion then I assume you support the Canadian government's past anti-Semitic immigration policies and would not object if we reinstated them?
Maintaining one religion's or one ethnicity's dominance in a country through discriminatory policies is not right, and is the hallmark of petty tyrannies the world over. |
You are either mad or cloying to a double standard here. What country in it's right mind would allow immigrants to change it's cultural makeup in anything other than slow motion? Every country that willingly allows immigration does so only to the extent that it feels it can safely absorb (read mould their culture to the extent that they don't pose a threat) that population. This is the most important factor in the decision, and it is universal or nearly so. If the population under consideration poses no threat to the culture of the country, then other considerations such as economic capability come into play.
The examples of weak governments which have failed to do their duty in this regard through malfeasance or extreme weakness are like a who's who of failed states, civil warfare and genocide. Zaire comes to mind as a more recent example, as do Lebanon and Jordan. Your government discriminates by numbers (as does mine) in order to retain it's flavor, control the rate of change and prevent the sort of backlash that nobody wants to see, and I wouldn't call it a petty tyranny, though I'm sure some of our anarchist posters would not hesitate to do so.
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20-02-2002 04:37
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