14-02-2002 15:28									#61
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Oooooooooh crap. Next time I should spend more than 15 seconds to read stuff.

But still, they way I understand it, according to the growth rate there should be 18million Jews, but because of inter marriage there will be only 12million.

	14-02-2002 15:34									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh ...and they have the cheek to compare me with Haider! If you believe in restricting who people are allowed to marry based on ethnicity or religion, then you are and evil bastard who I will fight 'til my dieing breath.....

Well you have your work cut out for you then. I reckon that you will be overwhelmed and killed on your own block long before you can ever get around to Israel.

	14-02-2002 16:20									#63
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My wife is Catholic.
My children are being raised as Catholic.

Hmmmm....may be some truth to this decline.

	15-02-2002 02:27									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh ...and they have the cheek to compare me with Haider! If you believe in restricting who people are allowed to marry based on ethnicity or religion, then you are an evil bastard who I will fight 'til my dieing breath.....

There's a difference between restricting who people are allowed to marry and saying that people should restrict who they marry - I think Siro is clearly arguing for the former and not the latter.

Eli: What the demographer claimed was that the number could be either depending on which way the birth and assimilation rates go. My guess is that between Habad and Lev L'achim there will be more Jews in the world in 2050 then there are today.

	15-02-2002 03:57									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Which is why I said it's your country,and you can do what you want, but don't be surprised when people get pissed off at you for it.

Why do you have a right to be pissed at me if I live in my country according to my values?

quote:

It was in reply to the "don't be surprised if you get attacked" part.

quote: Umm...I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? Hitler's goal to create a SuperRace was honorable?

Erm, you're right honorable was a bad word for it.

But again, I don't mind if he wanted to have his own little super race. As long as it doesn't bother me. When he decided that another of his goals is to make sure no one but the super race has right to live - this is where I say no.

quote: I'm very tempted to slip in a comment here on how Israel was formed and how people were hurt by that, but I'll refrain.

People were hurt not because Israel decided to ethnically cleanse the land, but because war was declared by the neighbouring arab nations, and as a result, in the war, many arabs and almost as much jews suffered. Some were slaughtered, and some banished and some fled.

It happens in a war.

You certainly can't blame Israel of wanting to cleanse this area. Actions which could fall under that category followed, but they were caused by the war. Israel didn't start the war with the cleansing goal in mind, nor did it start it anyway. The arabs did, and they, as they've declared, had the goal of cleansing jews from Palestina.

quote: Wait. Arab plans to live there alone? Aren't you the ones that only let Jews in your country?

Not exact. You're talking about territory of a country, while I'm talking about a territory of land.

If you'd like to draw a parallel between the conflict in 1947, you need the scene where Israel opposes any palestinian form of self government or declaration. And Israel does not oppose this, so there's no comparison.

	15-02-2002 04:01									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Why do you have a right to be pissed at me if I live in my country according to my values?

Because in my country we believe in freedom of speech.
Doesn't yours?

quote: It was in reply to the "don't be surprised if you get attacked" part.

Right, but we don't deny immigrants based on religion. Duh?

quote: You certainly can't blame Israel of wanting to cleanse this area. Actions which could fall under that category followed, but they were caused by the war. Israel didn't start the war with the cleansing goal in mind, nor did it start it anyway. The arabs did, and they, as they've declared, had the goal of cleansing jews from Palestina.

That's right, it's all the Arabs' fault.

quote: Not exact. You're talking about territory of a country, while I'm talking about a territory of land.

And here I was thinking a country's territory is defined by the land (and sea) it occupies.

	15-02-2002 04:03									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Right, that's absolutely right.

You're not getting my point.

I'm not saying the palestinian conflict is not related to it. It is.

What I'm saying is, that Judaism being an ethnical group is a fact which is not affected by the existance of Israel, or the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

quote: Civilized and rational? You just said Hitler's goal of a Master Race was "honorable".

I meant to say something else. It's a bad translation.

It should have said acceptable.

Whether it is nice and moral or not, if anyone wants to seclude himself from the rest of the world - so be it. He wanted to create a pure german race. Fine. The best of luck. I don't see why I should be concerned with it.

It's the part where he has to kill the jews, homos, gypsies and enslave the slavs which is actually bad and can not be allowed.

	15-02-2002 04:07									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune His goal -an ethnically pure German state of a few hundred millions- was not achievable without hurting others. My conviction deepens that Zionists are the Jewish version of the Aryan Nations.

I can't talk to you people.

Stop twisting what I say. You're hearing what you want to hear.

Again.

Creating a race of pure germans doesn't hurt anyone.
Killing the rest does.

I don't have a problem with A. I have a problem with B.

quote: Perhaps they didn´t want to live as a minority in their own land under a statehood created for a different culture and religion?

That's why the partition plans were offered.

To allow both ethnical groups to live as a majority with in their own land under their own statehood.

And while Israel still has no problems with a Palestinian state, arabs had, and some still have a problem with Israel even existing.

	15-02-2002 04:10									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Ehhh, yes. But I have also heard that Jews have often become victims of nationalism; so I wouldn´t have expected them to be extremely fond of the concept.

That's where you're wrong.

Jews were victims of Racism under extreme-nationalism. They've been also victims of Racism under communism as well.

	15-02-2002 04:11									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi If you love someone, in my opinion, you should go ahead and get with that person-- you don't owe that much to socierty that you should be forced to pick a certain mate for it.

I agree.

But if someone decides in advance that he only wants to marry jewish, it's his right.

	15-02-2002 04:15									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh ...and they have the cheek to compare me with Haider!

Yes I do, since you seemed very fond of the idea that there will be less jews in the world.

What's that if not anti-semitism?

quote: If you believe in restricting who people are allowed to marry based on ethnicity or religion, then you are an evil bastard who I will fight 'til my dieing breath.....

I don't blieve in restricting it.

What I do believe is in a person's right to decide for himself who he wants to marry without society saying he's a racist.

Again, if hitler wanted to collect a bunch of people who are arians and mostly only wish to marry with arians - go ahead. If he wants an arian state - ask for one.

That's not the same as physically clearing out the not-arians, and has nothing wrong with it. That's how ethnical nations work.

	15-02-2002 04:24									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Because in my country we believe in freedom of speech. Doesn't yours?

That's a non-sequitor.
You are talking about your right to have an opinion.

I'm talking about, why the hell how I choose to live my life should concern you, as long as I don't hurt anyone as a result?

And no, the pal-isr conflict is not a result of zionism in the sense that zionism doesn't have to lead to it - had the arabs agreed to devide the land among us.

quote: Right, but we don't deny immigrants based on religion. Duh?

You deny them based on social status. That's so much more moral

And back from my non-sequitor, what has that got to do with me replying to your text descibing how I shouldn't be surprised of your agression over my way of life.

quote: That's right, it's all the Arabs' fault.

That was a very mature and a very well explained and suported answer.

Yes, in the root of it, had arabs decided to compromise, the present would be very different.

quote: And here I was thinking a country's territory is defined by the land (and sea) it occupies.

But we're still talking about different things.

I'm not condeming arabs for not wanting to have jews in arab countries.

I'm condeming them for not wanting to give jews a country, in a relatively less arab peace of land.

	15-02-2002 04:25									#73
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Siro, maybe you should go back to reading about kinky sex acts.

It's pathetic how you're trying to rationalize some of this stuff, stop while you're only several laps behind.

	15-02-2002 04:31									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov That's a non-sequitor. You are talking about your right to have an opinion. I'm talking about, why the hell how I choose to live my life should concern you, as long as I don't hurt anyone as a result? And no, the pal-isr conflict is not a result of zionism in the sense that zionism doesn't have to lead to it - had the arabs agreed to devide the land among us.

How you choose to live your life has nothing to do with how your government works.

I don't know where to begin with your argument.
Why don't you agree to give the Arabs half of your land then, to divide the land among you?

Christ, think about it fo a while.

quote: You deny them based on social status. That's so much more moral

We do?
We do no such thing.
We admit people who have the skills required to obtain jobs so they don't go on welfare and drain tax money.
That's ENTIRELY different from refusing people to become citizens based on which cult they belong to.

quote: And back from my non-sequitor, what has that got to do with me replying to your text descibing how I shouldn't be surprised of your agression over my way of life.

Read what I responded to, and apply what's known as "comprehension", then figure it out.

quote: That was a very mature and a very well explained and suported answer.

Why should I argue with someone brainwashed?
There's no way in hell you'll admit otherwise in the argument.

quote: Yes, in the root of it, had arabs decided to compromise, the present would be very different.

So why are you fighting over the Gaza Strip?

quote: But we're still talking about different things. I'm not condeming arabs for not wanting to have jews in arab countries. I'm condeming them for not wanting to give jews a country, in a relatively less arab peace of land.

You're condeming them for fighting for land which you claim is yours but isn't really yours in the first place.

You can keep justifying it, but I think it's bullshit.

Jews are completely welcome in America, Canada, anywhere in the commonwealth, and basically anywhere in the world.

Why did you need to go make your own country based upon religious values?

	15-02-2002 05:16									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh ...and they have the cheek to compare me with Haider!

Welcome in the club!

Everybody who criticises either the US or Zionism or, God forbid, both, is compared to Haider these days.

This is too much of a compliment for Haider!

The guy is quite a jerk, really.

	15-02-2002 05:22									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Natan There's a difference between restricting who people are allowed to marry and saying that people should restrict who they marry - I think Siro is clearly arguing for the former and not the latter.

Still quite repulsive.

In the US, I think the only groups who say that Whites shouldn´t marry Blacks or Jews are the Aryan Nations and the National Alliance.

Congratulation to your choice of ideological partners!

	15-02-2002 05:28									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Creating a race of pure germans doesn't hurt anyone.

Yes, it does. To make it work, you would have to at least deport everybody else, and hurt those resisting deportation.

quote: And while Israel still has no problems with a Palestinian state...

Someone should tell that to Sharon.

	15-02-2002 05:32									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Still quite repulsive. In the US, I think the only groups who say that Whites shouldn´t marry Blacks or Jews are the Aryan Nations and the National Alliance. Congratulation to your choice of ideological partners!

I think there are millions of Christians, both in America and around the world, who will only marry a Christian spouse. There are also millions of people who want their children to marry people from the same area, just to keep their traditions going. I don't think there's anything repulsive about it.

	15-02-2002 05:35									#79
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Sharon only has problems with a Palestinian state if it includes Israel.

	15-02-2002 06:56									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Natan I think there are millions of Christians, both in America and around the world, who will only marry a Christian spouse.

While there is some sense in your argument, it is still not quite the same. Christians that feel strongly about their religion try to convert everybody; they would try to convert their spouse first, then marry her/him. I think that the choosing of a partner, not a possible conversion, was what Siro was talking about.

	15-02-2002 06:57									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Sharon only has problems with a Palestinian state if it includes Israel.

His definition of 'Israel' includes all territories where a Palestinian state would be viable.

	15-02-2002 07:05									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune His definition of 'Israel' includes all territories where a Palestinian state would be viable.

Arafat's definition of a viable Palestine includes all areas where Israel is.

	15-02-2002 07:21									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune While there is some sense in your argument, it is still not quite the same. Christians that feel strongly about their religion try to convert everybody; they would try to convert their spouse first, then marry her/him. I think that the choosing of a partner, not a possible conversion, was what Siro was talking about.

So because Jews don't want to hawk their views to others, they're racist? Do you have Jehovah's Witness missionaries in Austria?

	15-02-2002 07:51									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Natan So because Jews don't want to hawk their views to others, they're racist? Do you have Jehovah's Witness missionaries in Austria?

There is a racist streak in Siro´s/your arguments. And, yes, we have the Witnesses here; and I don´t complain: No one needs to listen to them, if he doesn´t want to.

At least they value others highly enough that they think them worth saving. There are ideologies that are a lot worse.

	15-02-2002 07:53									#85
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AFAIK, the Jewish religious philosophy is against conversion as the religious views of others, in relation to Judaism, don't matter. The Messia is supposed to come when all Israel heeds God. It's not that the rest of the world is not worth saving, they just don't need saving because there's nothing to save them from.

	16-02-2002 04:06									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't know where to begin with your argument. Why don't you agree to give the Arabs half of your land then, to divide the land among you?

I agree to do that.
And so does the Israeli govt. and 95% of Israelis.

The discussion is over technicalities.

And what happens now, is that Arafat is trying to increase terror, to influence Israel's possitions over these technicalities.

And I think it's right that we do not appease terror.

quote: We do? We do no such thing. We admit people who have the skills required to obtain jobs so they don't go on welfare and drain tax money. That's ENTIRELY different from refusing people to become citizens based on which cult they belong to.

And how the people who have less skills are "less worthy" or "less human" than those who do have them?

We don't pay attention to skills.

Rather we give the opportunity to those of jewish heritage, or those who decided to seriously participate in it (convertees) to fit in as they wish.

quote: Read what I responded to, and apply what's known as "comprehension", then figure it out.

We still talked about different things.

quote: Why should I argue with someone brainwashed? There's no way in hell you'll admit otherwise in the argument.

?
I'm bringing support for my claims and I constantly rethink my position according to new info.

If your assumption you won't convince me is the one leading you not to support your claims, then why bring them up in the first place?

quote: So why are you fighting over the Gaza Strip?

We're not.
That's the root of your misunderstanding.
We're not fighting over it.
We fully intend to give it away to palestinian self rule.

However we object to their use of terror against Israelis. And as long as they employ such tactics, they will live under our security control.

You could claim that we should remove the army and watch terror die out. Then tell me, why hasn't it died out during 8 years of negociations?

The only time it did die out - relatively - was in 1997-1999. That's when Arafat was threatened by Israel to crack down on terror.

And then, in the first month of the intifada he released all those jailed from their prisons.

And now he claims he isn't responsible since he can't re-arrest them??

quote: You're condeming them for fighting for land which you claim is yours but isn't really yours in the first place.

That land was mostly just as ours as it was theirs.

I stand by my assertion that most arabs immigrated into palestine in the same time as the jews did.

quote: You can keep justifying it, but I think it's bullshit.

Instead, try reading about it more.

quote: Jews are completely welcome in America, Canada, anywhere in the commonwealth, and basically anywhere in the world.

But still will never be as protected as they are in thier own state.

Palestinians are welcome in America, Canda, Commonwealth, France, 30 Arab and Muslim countries too.

quote: Why did you need to go make your own country based upon religious values?

It's based upon values of jewish heritage.
Religion is a major part of it.

	16-02-2002 04:08									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Welcome in the club! Everybody who criticises either the US or Zionism or, God forbid, both, is compared to Haider these days. This is too much of a compliment for Haider! The guy is quite a jerk, really.

I again ask you to re-read why I compared him to haider.

It was because he expressed happiness in reaction to hearing there would be less jews in the world.

How would you judge his words?

	16-02-2002 04:09									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Still quite repulsive. In the US, I think the only groups who say that Whites shouldn´t marry Blacks or Jews are the Aryan Nations and the National Alliance. Congratulation to your choice of ideological partners!

Again you're skewing what we say.

You're arguing against other ideas, which I do not support.

No one here says jews shouldn't marry non-jews.

What I do say, is that there shouldn't be a problem with jews who by their own choise only want to marry jews.

	16-02-2002 04:13									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Yes, it does. To make it work, you would have to at least deport everybody else, and hurt those resisting deportation.

But if you re-read my post you'd see that I did not mean that part.

What you're describing is making a single-race country by means of force.

What I'm talking about is only making a closed community of people who only choose to mate with each other. And this is an idea which I see no wrong with.

quote: Someone should tell that to Sharon.

Again, you're projecting your own populistic biases on reality.

In reality Sharon has said numerously that there will be and should be a palestinian state.

He was one of the first, who suggested, in 1974 to talk peace to the PLO in exchange for a state and a conflict end.

But I bet that doesn't fit your description of him?

	16-02-2002 04:19									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune There is a racist streak in Siro´s/your arguments.

If instead of jumping from my ideas, to populistic concepts, you'd read my ideas thoroughly, you'd see that is wrong.

My idea is to allow people who want to seclude themselves from the rest to do so, assuming they don't harm others.

I see absolutely no wrong in private clubs, countries or what ever.

However, the making of such a private group should in no way be violent of forceful.

And indeed, Israel's creation didn't intend to be such, but since Israel was declared war upon, practically before it was born, it had to defend itself, and violence arose.

Let me make a more simple example:

Let's assume a bunch of witnesses ask the UN for a country.
They get one in a relatively empty area of N. america, since that's where most of them sit, and they promise to treat non witnesses as equal citizens.

The next day, catholics in the areas sorrounding the designated state, violently attack the future nation of the witnesses.

Who is the agressor?