16-02-2002 04:19									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I again ask you to re-read why I compared him to haider. It was because he expressed happiness in reaction to hearing there would be less jews in the world. How would you judge his words?

There is another interpretation. If it means a reduction in the numbers of any people (whatever the hell they class themselves as) who break the world down into "us" and "them", and try desperately to boost the "us" at the expense of the "them", then I would be less than unhappy too. It's a caveman mentality and the root of racism.

	16-02-2002 05:51									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny There is another interpretation. If it means a reduction in the numbers of any people (whatever the hell they class themselves as) who break the world down into "us" and "them", and try desperately to boost the "us" at the expense of the "them", then I would be less than unhappy too. It's a caveman mentality and the root of racism.

A) He hasn't explained it so, even after I noted his remark, but rather tried to make me look racist.

B) At exactly whose expense are jews trying to boost themselves?

C) I disagree with you.

I don't call it caveman mentality but rather human mentality.

It's a fact - people are different and tend to devide into groups according to common grounds.

Lately the groups got very large and we began calling them nations.

Even if we would gather together as people, we'd still seperate ourselves from the rest.

Because it's a fact that we're different. And we shouldn't be ashamed of it, nor should we try to erase it or ignore it.

I prefer to be with people whom I see as my own kind.

I don't happen to describe my own kind using color, but rather using values, intelligence, culture and so on.

I imagine I would have a hard time leading daily life with people who have a very different culture than me.

Infact, I have no need to. For 7 years I interacted only with people who were very different from me, in mentality, culture, intelligence and values.

And I suffered alot.

Now I have my own "people" with whom I hang out. And I would pick close friends or mates from that group, simply becase contacts with radically different cultures are very hard.

Those who can do this - fine. Very well. I don't feel I'm capable.



What you are all saying, is that dividing into groups is somehow morally wrong. I reject this idea. It's my right to do so.

What is wrong is to exclude other people from something they deserve only because they are of another "group". That would be wrong.

But my right to choose to contact with one groops over another stands.

	16-02-2002 15:47									#93
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It doesn't have to be like that. The fallback line "It's human nature" is lazy and the last refuge of all racists.

I don't believe in Nationalism, or Patriotism. It's all rubbish. In fact, the only groups I do descriminate against are the bigots who propogate garbage like the aforemention to the extent that it becomes divisive. On another forum I got embroiled in an argument with someone who said that my taking a stance against bigotry made me a bigot myself- but bugger that.

I am nominally British, and nominally Christian. If a story emerged that both groups were being bred out, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. In fact, I'd heartily participate in as much breeding out as I possibly could. I think the world will be a happier place when we're all brown- but that's my choice.

To start threads, as Eli did, which sound panicked about the fact that his chosen social group are being more liberal with their seed than he'd like, is a joke.

	17-02-2002 02:27									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I agree to do that. And so does the Israeli govt. and 95% of Israelis. The discussion is over technicalities.

Leave the Gaza Strip, then we'll talk.

quote: And how the people who have less skills are "less worthy" or "less human" than those who do have them? We don't pay attention to skills. Rather we give the opportunity to those of jewish heritage, or those who decided to seriously participate in it (convertees) to fit in as they wish.

They're not less human, they ARE less worthy.
They're less worthy because we don't need people without jobs to live off taxpayer's money to survive.
This isn't an unfair approach, like restricting it to someone's religion, as people can get their job skills in their country, then apply again armed with actual real-world skills.

quote: We're not. That's the root of your misunderstanding. We're not fighting over it. We fully intend to give it away to palestinian self rule. However we object to their use of terror against Israelis. And as long as they employ such tactics, they will live under our security control.

OH! Okay!
I misunderstood everything. You WANT the Palestinians to have control over it, but they're being very bad people so you're going to punish them by fighting for control of it.

Who do you think you're fooling?
Or rather, who did your government fool?

quote: Instead, try reading about it more.

I have read about it, it's just that you (and your government) try to put a spin on things to make it look like you're always the victim in here.

quote: But still will never be as protected as they are in thier own state.

What can I say other than "bullshit"?
Jews get the same rights as EVERYONE else in these western nations, are you expecting to get superior treatment because you're the MasterRace or something?

quote: It's based upon values of jewish heritage. Religion is a major part of it.

Yeah, so why do you need a country exclusive to your heritage?
It's actually racist.

	17-02-2002 02:56									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Leave the Gaza Strip, then we'll talk.

Then we'll talk about Jerusalem.
Leave Jerusalem, then we'll talk.
Then we'll talk about the Golan.
Leave the Golan, then we'll talk.
Then we'll talk about Ashkelon and Petah Tikva.
Leave the Ashkelon and Petah Tikva, then we'll talk.
Then we'll talk about the Galilee.
Leave the Galilee, then we'll talk.
Then we'll talk about Ashdod and Hadera.
Leave Ashdod and Hadera, then we'll talk.
Then we'll talk about Tel Aviv.
Leave Tel Aviv, then we'll talk.
Then we'll talk about the refugees.
Accept the refugees, then we'll talk.
Then we'll talk about Judenrein Palestine.
Accept Judenrein Palestine, then we'll talk.

	17-02-2002 03:15									#96
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hey it's just like the maps of FYROM showing Macedonia as part of their country And these nationalist guys are in FYROM government now Too bad it will be Albanian Fyrom in some decades, then the name will change without problems .

Nah, they exagerate to get strength, don't pay attention Eli

	17-02-2002 03:27									#97
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Actually, in this case they don't. This is actually what they want, or else they wouldn't have fought Israel when what you call Palestinian territory was in Jordan.

And why exactly does the PLO want the Negev?

	17-02-2002 04:06									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Then we'll talk about Jerusalem. Leave Jerusalem, then we'll talk. Then we'll talk about the Golan. Leave the Golan, then we'll talk. Then we'll talk about Ashkelon and Petah Tikva. Leave the Ashkelon and Petah Tikva, then we'll talk. Then we'll talk about the Galilee. Leave the Galilee, then we'll talk. Then we'll talk about Ashdod and Hadera. Leave Ashdod and Hadera, then we'll talk. Then we'll talk about Tel Aviv. Leave Tel Aviv, then we'll talk. Then we'll talk about the refugees. Accept the refugees, then we'll talk. Then we'll talk about Judenrein Palestine. Accept Judenrein Palestine, then we'll talk.

It takes two to tango, my dear Eli.

	17-02-2002 05:03									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny It doesn't have to be like that. The fallback line "It's human nature" is lazy and the last refuge of all racists.

The fallback on "you're racist" is the last refuge of all neo-liberals.

Regardless of your views of what's right, people have always united in cumminities and always had "us" and "them". Sprayber mentioned it in a thread the other day titled "inflammatory question" or something.

Blaming all people who believe in nationalism and patriotism racists is a mighty "brave" step,

quote: I don't believe in Nationalism, or Patriotism. It's all rubbish. In fact, the only groups I do descriminate against are the bigots who propogate garbage like the aforemention to the extent that it becomes divisive.

I do believe in Nationalism and Patriotism. I learned that there are several groups on which you can fall back to save you, in that order:

1. Your family
2. Your friends
3. Your acquaintances
4. Your class/school/work pals
5. Your townsmen
6. Your country men
7. Your country's allies
8. The rest of humanity.

There's a reason why the rest of humanity is last on that list, and why this list exists in the first place. The reason being - they just don't care. Each person cares for himself and then the groups I've described.

You believe that is illegetimate and wrong. I believe it is legitimate, and while somtimes might indeed be wrong, is the safe way to go.

quote: On another forum I got embroiled in an argument with someone who said that my taking a stance against bigotry made me a bigot myself- but bugger that.

I don't know.
I can't say I respect people whom I consider bigots, but I certainly try not to descriminate against anyone.

quote: I am nominally British, and nominally Christian. If a story emerged that both groups were being bred out, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. In fact, I'd heartily participate in as much breeding out as I possibly could. I think the world will be a happier place when we're all brown- but that's my choice.

I agree with that and accept that.

However some people would not like to breed out and that does not in any way makes them worse people.

quote: To start threads, as Eli did, which sound panicked about the fact that his chosen social group are being more liberal with their seed than he'd like, is a joke.

So is ranting against people who aren't as liberal as you'd like.

	17-02-2002 05:31									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Leave the Gaza Strip, then we'll talk.

Stop terror, then we'll talk

quote: They're not less human, they ARE less worthy. They're less worthy because we don't need people without jobs to live off taxpayer's money to survive. This isn't an unfair approach, like restricting it to someone's religion, as people can get their job skills in their country, then apply again armed with actual real-world skills.

Not true. Not everyone can get job skills since not everyone are rich or talented.

That's not more moralistic than ethnic type emigration laws, only different. It's not based on ethnicity but rather on socio-economical status.

Also, Israel is certainly not the only one. People who can prove russian heritage can get citizenship in Russia. At least, until recently the same was true for Germany.

quote: OH! Okay! I misunderstood everything. You WANT the Palestinians to have control over it, but they're being very bad people so you're going to punish them by fighting for control of it. Who do you think you're fooling? Or rather, who did your government fool?

Okay, let me explain again.

We don't fight to control it forever.

But as long as we are under threat from them, we do have to fight to control the territory. Because if we don't, terrorists will have an easier life.

Please use your memory and recall the fact, that when there was much less terror (pre sept. 2000) Israel didn't use incursions and that much blockades.

If like you keep claiming we would only want to control the land, we'd never agree to any kind of peace talks what so ever.

It's you who the fool is. You've fallen for the Palestinian propoganda. You think that we're after territory, even though we for over 23 years have been agreeing to the "land for peace" formula.

And who gets the land and who gets the peace?

quote: I have read about it, it's just that you (and your government) try to put a spin on things to make it look like you're always the victim in here.

No, it's the pals who put a spin on it, and news services around the world are carrying it since they are hungry for material.

quote: What can I say other than "bullshit"? Jews get the same rights as EVERYONE else in these western nations, are you expecting to get superior treatment because you're the MasterRace or something?

It's you who bullshits.

You know perfectly well, that even if jews have the same rights, there are people who don't respect those rights.

Infact, anti-semitism is on the rise in france and germany iirc.

And don't forget that before Hitler, jews legally, and even in reality, had exactly the same rights and privilages in Germany. But that all changed very quickly.

We can't risk for it to change.

And in any case, arguing that point is moot, since just because you feel nationality is stupid, most of the world seems to disagree, since even the UN charters of all sorts acknowledge the right for every minority to define itself in the form of a country is a basic right.

[q]Yeah, so why do you need a country exclusive to your heritage?
It's actually racist. [/QUOTE]
Why do the Irish need a country exclusive for themselves?
Why do the Basquaes and Catalonians need one?
Why do the Kurds need one?
Why do the Taiwanese need one?
Why do the Palestinians need one?

There are two sad things.

A) That you are thinking in very different ways than most of the world and are apparently not aware of it.

B) That you (to my knwoledge) only project your dissatisfaction at the Israeli - Jewish will for self defenition and not the rest of the nationalities. Who's racist now?

	17-02-2002 05:31									#101
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but siro you got to accept that israel is fundamentalistic.

i didn't know that to be accepted as a citizen of israel you HAVE to either believe in the jewish God or have marry a jewsih girl or have jewish family roots.

this simply is totalitarian.

	17-02-2002 05:37									#102
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 but siro you got to accept that israel is fundamentalistic. i didn't know that to be accepted as a citizen of israel you HAVE to either believe in the jewish God or have marry a jewsih girl or have jewish family roots. this simply is totalitarian.

You don't. There are Arab Israelis.

	17-02-2002 05:54									#103
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quote: but siro you got to accept that israel is fundamentalistic. i didn't know that to be accepted as a citizen of israel you HAVE to either believe in the jewish God or have marry a jewsih girl or have jewish family roots.

To be accepted as a new citizen you have to eiher have jewish roots or family ties, or be willing to accept jewish identity.

That's because we define Israel as a country mainly for those of jewish heritage.

The same way there are countries meant to serve as pure national democracies such as USA and Canada, and countries meant to serve as ethnical democracies such as Germany or Serbia or Russia, or countries meant to serve as religious countries like Iran, Saudia, Pakistan and so on.

It's very simple infact.

Israel is a democratic country who is set to operate according to the jewish values and heritage. Therefore it's only reasonable that we ask those who intend to be citizens, to know this way of life and accept it in advance.

Israel is not here to play a function of a "country of it's citizens". There are already america and canda to do that. They accept citizens from around the world since it's their choise. And mostly since they set their target as creating a new country of new values, not of heritage.

But most world countries do not operate like that.


And still, Israel is very democratic both for jews and non-jews, as it accepts those non-jews who already live here and gives them full rights, and even more. They are free from obligations which are "jewish" such as the laws requiring not working on Sabbath or laws Requiring food-places to have a rabbi approved label of whether they are kosher.

Also, with regards to families of non-jews, already several family re-unifications have been made and no doubt will be made in the future, of non-jews who live in non-hostile countries such as Palestine, Jordan and Egypt.

quote: this simply is totalitarian

Totalitarian usually means you have to comply to a certain ruler and have nothing to say about it.

More so it regards to the completeness of control a state has over ones life.

One could call in a sense, a social democratic government -"totalitarian", since it puts forward more regulations and laws on bussiness and social activites and gives less freedom.

	17-02-2002 07:28									#104
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Half the posts in this thread are Siro's. It's seems like he's the new secret Israeli project: The Propagandabot 2000.

	17-02-2002 07:32									#105
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Siro has pretty much the same opinions as me - and he hasn't got tired of arguing this issue yet.

	17-02-2002 07:34									#106
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Yeah, the guy does have stamina, I'll give him that.

	17-02-2002 07:43									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Stop terror, then we'll talk

So when will you be removing your tanks?

quote: It's you who the fool is. You've fallen for the Palestinian propoganda. You think that we're after territory, even though we for over 23 years have been agreeing to the "land for peace" formula.

Yes, that's right. I am victim to Palestinian propoganda day in and day out, and that's why I can't form the correct conclusion that it's the Arabs who are always out of line and it's the Israelis who are the perfect victim in a war with worthless Arabs. Please forgive me.

quote: No, it's the pals who put a spin on it, and news services around the world are carrying it since they are hungry for material.

All the news services around here are pro-Israeli. You are right, there is a certain spin on it.

quote: It's you who bullshits. You know perfectly well, that even if jews have the same rights, there are people who don't respect those rights.

That's bullshit. Seriously.
Having lived in America and Canada with Jewish friends, I know there's no anti-semitism feelings rampant. CERTAINLY less than what you'll get in the middle east.

Try living here before commenting on that.

quote: Infact, anti-semitism is on the rise in france and germany iirc.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Not that I'd ever live in France or Germany though.

quote: And don't forget that before Hitler, jews legally, and even in reality, had exactly the same rights and privilages in Germany. But that all changed very quickly.

Ah, yes, you're right. It is entirely likely that Canada, for example, will become a fascist empire and the government will exterminate all Jews.

quote: We can't risk for it to change.

So instead you relocate to the middle east?

quote: And in any case, arguing that point is moot, since just because you feel nationality is stupid, most of the world seems to disagree, since even the UN charters of all sorts acknowledge the right for every minority to define itself in the form of a country is a basic right.

It wasn't I who made the comment on nationality. Pay attention.

You do have a right to make your own country, nobody argued that. I'm just saying that when you make your own country based around a race of people, and restrict your immigration to people of that same race, it's racist. Fact is fact, spin it as you like.

quote: Why do the Irish need a country exclusive for themselves? Why do the Basquaes and Catalonians need one? Why do the Kurds need one? Why do the Taiwanese need one? Why do the Palestinians need one? There are two sad things.

I wasn't aware race was a requirement for immigration in those examples. Enlighten me.

quote: A) That you are thinking in very different ways than most of the world and are apparently not aware of it.

Oh, I'm certainly aware of it.
Why would you think I'm not aware of it?

quote: B) That you (to my knwoledge) only project your dissatisfaction at the Israeli - Jewish will for self defenition and not the rest of the nationalities. Who's racist now?

Why would I discuss other nationalities when this thread is about Israelis? You'd care call me racist over that?

I have many controversial political views. That's why I usually stay out of the political threads.

Have you heard my rant about the UK with Ireland?
Or any of my African rants?
Or even many of the southern states?

I have dissatisfaction with countries with many races. Don't pin me as racist because I don't approve of Israel.

	17-02-2002 08:00									#108
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Siro has been bulshiting us all along.

here he is in a peace demo. (the one with the beard - center)

Attachment: demo.jpg
This has been downloaded 82 time(s).

	17-02-2002 08:10									#109
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quote: Israel is a democratic country who is set to operate according to the jewish values and heritage. Therefore it's only reasonable that we ask those who intend to be citizens, to know this way of life and accept it in advance.

Jewish atheists may not share the same values as religious Jews. In fact, you don't know anything about their values in advance. Why don't you refuse to admit them into your country?

Orthodox Jews may not share the same values as more liberal Jews. Why don't you refuse one of these groups entry?

	17-02-2002 08:31									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Jewish atheists may not share the same values as religious Jews. In fact, you don't know anything about their values in advance. Why don't you refuse to admit them into your country? Orthodox Jews may not share the same values as more liberal Jews. Why don't you refuse one of these groups entry?

My only answer to you is Hitler. And the Ayatollah in Iran and his buds. And Saddam & co. in Iraq. And Haider in Australia. And Henry Ford's friends in the US. And Mackenzie ing in Canada. The list goes on and on and on. we cannot risk another genocide - this is why we have Israel. I find it comforting to know that if a Neo-Nazi group should come to power here (however unlikely) I know that I do have somewhere to go. Israel is and must be a place where all Jews can go if they need to. How many more tragedies does it take until Israel becomes accepted?

That being said, the Orthodox in Israel have turned the country into a quasi-theocracy. I don't by any means approve of this, but it was done democratically, which is more than many countries can say about their theocratic policies.

Democracy is also good - and in Israel, everyone gets a say due to proportional representation. (and not only that, everyone will say large amounts about politics.)

	17-02-2002 08:35									#111
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So Israel exists incase that, in a remote possibility, a whacko comes into power and tries to kill all Jews. To avoid this, they took some land in the Middle East and called it Israel.

If you're trying to avoid persecution, why would you make your country in the Middle East? Are you masochists?

	17-02-2002 08:42									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So Israel exists incase that, in a remote possibility, a whacko comes into power and tries to kill all Jews. To avoid this, they took some land in the Middle East and called it Israel. If you're trying to avoid persecution, why would you make your country in the Middle East? Are you masochists?

Because Jews have a deep connection to the land, as has been explained in other threads - "If I forget the, o Jerusalem", "The hope of 2000 years, to be a free nation in our land", etc.. And the Brits supported it. Although there was talk of a Jewish state in Uganda for a time.

And antisemitism is not a remote possibility. The entire ME used to have a large Jewish population. Where are they now? Either or dead or in Israel.And look at Russia. The Jews were persecuted for 100s of years... until they all moved to Israel. And look at Canada's WWII government - "none is too many". And look at the Dreyfus affair. And Haider. The list goes on and on...

	17-02-2002 09:07									#113
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quote: Israel is and must be a place where all Jews can go if they need to. How many more tragedies does it take until Israel becomes accepted?

Accepting Israel is not the same thing as accepting its biggotted immigration policies. Nor is it the same thing as accepting Palestinian exploitation. Unless, of course, you consider Israel to embody one of these two principles.

quote: My only answer to you is Hitler.

Siro claimed that Israel's immigration policies defend Jewish values. Quite evidently, that's bullshit. And Hitler is not a refutation.

quote: Israel is and must be a place where all Jews can go if they need to.

I agree with your desire to be independent of tyrants. The thing is, you, your religion, and your ethnicity are not special in this regard. You do not have the right to coerce citizens into not entering into contracts with people not of your ethnicity or religion.

quote: That being said, the Orthodox in Israel have turned the country into a quasi-theocracy. I don't by any means approve of this, but it was done democratically, which is more than many countries can say about their theocratic policies.

Maybe states shouldn't have so much authority, in the first place.

	17-02-2002 09:11									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Because Jews have a deep connection to the land, as has been explained in other threads - "If I forget the, o Jerusalem", "The hope of 2000 years, to be a free nation in our land", etc.. And the Brits supported it. Although there was talk of a Jewish state in Uganda for a time.

It's land. Dirt. Get over it.

quote: And antisemitism is not a remote possibility. The entire ME used to have a large Jewish population. Where are they now? Either or dead or in Israel.And look at Russia. The Jews were persecuted for 100s of years... until they all moved to Israel. And look at Canada's WWII government - "none is too many". And look at the Dreyfus affair. And Haider. The list goes on and on...

Don't give me that.
Homosexuals have been bullied and murdered for centuries as well, do you see homosexuals going and creating their own country incase a whacko comes into power?

There's simply no way in hell a modern western government will get away with antisemitism. Really. The UN would act, NATO would act, the citizens would react. Stop it with the paranoid "we need our own country to survive!" bullshit.

	17-02-2002 09:11									#115
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Good. We both accept that Israel does have a right to exist.

As to the immigration policies, they are necessary for Israel to fulfil its purpose. Without right of return, Israel is useless as a refuge for Jews. I personally do not think that Jewish values are what is being defended but rather Jewish lives. Identity doesn't do to badly either, but with identity alone there would be no reason for an Israelm or at least no good enough reason to endure all this crap.

	17-02-2002 09:12									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Good. We both accept that Israel does have a right to exist. As to the immigration policies, they are necessary for Israel to fulfil its purpose. Without right of return, Israel is useless as a refuge for Jews. I personally do not think that Jewish values are what is being defended but rather Jewish lives. Identity doesn't do to badly either, but with identity alone there would be no reason for an Israelm or at least no good enough reason to endure all this crap.

Some quick mental math here...
But I'm pretty sure that Israelis are more likely to die because they are Jewish than Canadians are.

	17-02-2002 09:33									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Some quick mental math here... But I'm pretty sure that Israelis are more likely to die because they are Jewish than Canadians are.

But the important thing is that they will never be persecuted by their own country. Never again will there be a Hitler-esque episode.

And when you get right down to it, deaths from terrorism are horrible, but small. I.e. you are far more likely to die from a car crash.

	17-02-2002 09:35									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit But the important thing is that they will never be persecuted by their own country. Never again will there be a Hitler-esque episode. And when you get right down to it, deaths from terrorism are horrible, but small. I.e. you are far more likely to die from a car crash.

Why does it matter where the persecution comes from: from suicide bombers or from genocide?

I still stand by my statement that no modern western country will ever have that happen in it. Outside forces would simply prevent it, in the rare event some whacko tries to start.

	17-02-2002 09:37									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Why does it matter where the persecution comes from: from suicide bombers or from genocide? I still stand by my statement that no modern western country will ever have that happen in it. Outside forces would simply prevent it, in the rare event some whacko tries to start.

That's what Jews in Germany thought in 1932.

And we can do something about external threats much more easily.

	17-02-2002 09:39									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit That's what Jews in Germany thought in 1932. And we can do something about external threats much more easily.

Armed with knowledge of history and the 30s in Nazi Germany, it's entirely unlikely that'll happen anymore.

Especially with things like the internet and other forms of communications which can't be censored like how Nazi Germany worked.

People are kidding themselves if they honestly believe a modern western government could ever get away with genocide in these times.