14-02-2002 22:44									#1
	pop-rushing and tech trading... Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I just wanted to clarify a few issues.

First, pop rushing has not been eliminated. A few change, however, have been made. You can not sacrifice over half the population of you city anymore. Also, city unhappiness can "go negative," which means if your city has 1 citizen and 4 have been sacrificed recently, you will need 4 happiness points (from temples, luxuries, military units, whatever...) to keep that 1 citizen from being unhappy. In previous versions, just having a spearman in the city was enough to keep that 1 citizen content, even if you had sacrificed an infinite number of citizens.

Second, the AI will no longer trade techs during your turn.

	14-02-2002 22:49									#2
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good work

	14-02-2002 22:53									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmm... Better and better. Terribly sorry for asking the following question in yet another thread, but I think it may be important. And it'd be great to hear from you Soren if you can answer this:

Have you upgraded the AI so that it is aware of the fact that culture flipping can be avoided by having more units present? Or is there a different rule for cities with no foreign nationals? I'm thinking about AI cities which border a civ with greater culture...

I think this could be significant because if the AI does pump up border city units to prevent flipping then we have a greater challenge, and if not then the wily human player will have all the advantages of culture and none of the disadvantages.

Thanks,

V

(edited for typos)

Last edited by volcanohead on 14-02-2002 at 23:02

	14-02-2002 22:57									#4
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Does this mean you can exploit the AI like you could before the first patch by trading for a tech and selling it to all other civs during your turn? I only played a few games after the first patch because I desperately wanted stacked movement, so forgive me if there was some other changes to compensate for this that I did not become fully aware of.

	14-02-2002 22:58									#5
	Re: pop-rushing and tech trading... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis Second, the AI will no longer trade techs during your turn.

The fix about pop rush makes sense thanks for the clarification, however, I still have a concern about trading techs on other players turns. The fix you have implimented will work well on a single player game but I am concerned about what impact it will have on future Multiplayer games.
In MP games it seems like the game would be slightly more entertaining if the other players could conduct diplomacy when it is another players turn. Negotiations can sometimes take up a lot of time so by allowing Human players to conduct diplomacy "around the clock" we can minimize wasted time and give the other players something to do while they wait. Just my two cents...

	14-02-2002 23:00									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And now I'm really shooting myself in the foot: I'm sure all the Apolyton members really appreciate the information you've provided today, before the release of the patch. However, it seems to me that you could perhaps make your lives easier by providing a bit more detail in the original readme.txt... It happened in the last patch and it's happening again now that there appear to be several itmes left missing from the readme (tech-trading) or left poorly explained (pop-rushing). This is not a whine, as obviously you provide this information anyway in this forum, in response to our questions.

I just wonder if it's not easier for you guys to provide more information in the readme??

Cheers

V

	14-02-2002 23:01									#7
	Re: Re: pop-rushing and tech trading... Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The fix about pop rush makes sense thanks for the clarification, however, I still have a concern about trading techs on other players turns. The fix you have implimented will work well on a single player game but I am concerned about what impact it will have on future Multiplayer games. In MP games it seems like the game would be slightly more entertaining if the other players could conduct diplomacy when it is another players turn. Negotiations can sometimes take up a lot of time so by allowing Human players to conduct diplomacy "around the clock" we can minimize wasted time and give the other players something to do while they wait. Just my two cents...

Yes, that is true, but the AIs can do a trade mush faster.

	14-02-2002 23:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton Does this mean you can exploit the AI like you could before the first patch by trading for a tech and selling it to all other civs during your turn? I only played a few games after the first patch because I desperately wanted stacked movement, so forgive me if there was some other changes to compensate for this that I did not become fully aware of.

Well, I suppose so, but the AI is now _much_ more aggressive about trading techs with each other, on their own turn.

	14-02-2002 23:09									#9
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As if they werent enough already

	14-02-2002 23:28									#10
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Just wanted to post my thanks to Soren for the clarification...

Nice job on the patch. I'm looking forward to playing it. Overall, I think it's pretty clear that Firaxis has paid some attention to the playability complaints here and on other boards, and has worked to address them.

Of course, collectively speaking, we're never going to be 100% satisfied.

	15-02-2002 00:16									#11
	Re: pop-rushing and tech trading... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis I just wanted to clarify a few issues. First, pop rushing has not been eliminated. A few change, however, have been made. You can not sacrifice over half the population of you city anymore. Also, city unhappiness can "go negative," which means if your city has 1 citizen and 4 have been sacrificed recently, you will need 4 happiness points (from temples, luxuries, military units, whatever...) to keep that 1 citizen from being unhappy. In previous versions, just having a spearman in the city was enough to keep that 1 citizen content, even if you had sacrificed an infinite number of citizens.

Excellent news. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering how poprushing would work - as you describe it, the changes will have no effect on my strategy.

Thanks Soren.

-Arrian

	15-02-2002 00:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by volcanohead However, it seems to me that you could perhaps make your lives easier by providing a bit more detail in the original readme.txt... It happened in the last patch and it's happening again now that there appear to be several itmes left missing from the readme (tech-trading) or left poorly explained (pop-rushing).

I think it's a simple of matter of that they are too "close" to the information. It might have seemed obvious to them when they say something, because they have been working on it so closely. Where as, to somebody that hasn't... some of it might not be as clear as intended.

I really don't think that misunderstanding will become clear until after they have printed something. And since they are doing a fine job of clearing up any misconceptions... they are probably doing the best they can

Again... thanks for the info.

	15-02-2002 00:29									#13
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I must agree. I'm impressed both by the patch and Firaxis' follow up.

	15-02-2002 00:34									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis Well, I suppose so, but the AI is now _much_ more aggressive about trading techs with each other, on their own turn.

Teriffic! Have you made any other adjustments to AI behavior that aren't mentioned in the readme?

Thanks for keeping us informed!

-ollie-

	15-02-2002 00:38									#15
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quote: Well, I suppose so, but the AI is now _much_ more aggressive about trading techs with each other, on their own turn.

well, i guess that means meeting other civs first is now even more important, and trading communications away should be avoided... seems to benefit the explorer more than the trader now.

	15-02-2002 00:41									#16
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I just wanted to point out that Soren Johnson also answered many very specific questions in the following thread started by Lib.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=42253

I'm sure a lot of people have checked this thread out because Soren started it... so I didn't want people to miss many of the answers he so nicely provided in this other important thread.

Sorry to interupt

	15-02-2002 00:44									#17
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quote: Originally posted by bloodysmurf Teriffic! Have you made any other adjustments to AI behavior that aren't mentioned in the readme? Thanks for keeping us informed! -ollie-

There have been a lot of improvements to the AI, most of which are not really appropriate for the readme (you wouldn't want us spoiling the surprise, would you?)

	15-02-2002 00:48									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis Well, I suppose so, but the AI is now _much_ more aggressive about trading techs with each other, on their own turn.

Awesome!

This not only fixes the bug but makes the AI more challenging!


Pembleton, there never was any aspect of trading a tech to all other civs on your turn that could be considered an "exploit". Though some label it as such, I have not seen any good arguments on this board that supports this idea.

Thanks Soren!

	15-02-2002 00:51									#19
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Soren, I think your work with the AI is outstanding. It is a brutally difficult specification with manifold levels of complexity that are orders of magnitude beyond chess. Well done.

	15-02-2002 00:58									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Libertarian Soren, I think your work with the AI is outstanding. It is a brutally difficult specification with manifold levels of complexity that are orders of magnitude beyond chess. Well done.

Agree 100%, leading on to a question. Soren, when you make changes to the AI how do you test to see if there are unforeseen / unwanted side-effects? In something as complex as Civ3 it must be difficult to be completely sure that the intended effect is not producing something screwy elsewhere. And it must be a nightmare to redo this process every time you make a change so do you make several modifications before testing to check them all at once?

	15-02-2002 01:04									#21
	AI trading during your turn - Soren Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi Soren, that's a great start on this diplomacy crippling issue.
What about the other parts of diplomacy during the human turn.

1. Can the AI trade world maps during my turn with the new patch

2. Can the AI trade Commo with other civs during my turn with new patch.

3. Can the AI trade anything or form alliances during my turn.

I can verify that #1 and #2 have occured to me when I was the
first to discover a continent full of new civs on my ship.

Thanks for the new patch,

Caving forever,

Dennis

	15-02-2002 01:04									#22
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Looks like this Friday will be something like Christmas... At this weekend I surely will know nothing about the weather outside and if it's day or night.

	15-02-2002 01:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Feephi Pembleton, there never was any aspect of trading a tech to all other civs on your turn that could be considered an "exploit". Though some label it as such, I have not seen any good arguments on this board that supports this idea. Thanks Soren!

I agree. The AI's seemed pretty good at swapping techs with each other already, although it might take them a few turns to get a tech round the world. Selling your own techs for as much as you could get only seemed sensible to keep pace. Now if you'd been getting one nations techs they had yet to spread around and brokered them to the rest of the world for your own gain, that would be an exploit that needed plugging. I'm delighted its back to the way it was at release.

	15-02-2002 05:13									#24
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To further clarify:

the AI's will not trade anything during your turn (techs, maps, goods, etc...)

	15-02-2002 05:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Now if you'd been getting one nations techs they had yet to spread around and brokered them to the rest of the world for your own gain, that would be an exploit that needed plugging.

Not sure if I agree with you there, Grumbold. Are you talking about a situation where, for example, you have made contact with all civilizations however there are a couple of civs on your continent who have yet to meet the rest of the world on another continent and you sell a tech of theirs to the rest of the world? I make it a priority to seek out all civilizations for purposes of trade as soon as possible. As soon as I get MapMaking, I will send galleys around the world, across open ocean if necessary, losing more than a few, until I make that contact. I do this because of the value of trading in the Civ III game design. If Firaxis can confirm that the AI does not have this same priority then maybe I'll concede that this is an exploit, but I'll have to ask then why doesn't the AI do this?

	15-02-2002 05:38									#26
	Ai trades during human turn Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis To further clarify: the AI's will not trade anything during your turn (techs, maps, goods, etc...)

Terrific, I will now play more games after the patch. Diplomacy
is now 'turns' oriented.

Dennis

	15-02-2002 08:33									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Feephi I make it a priority to seek out all civilizations for purposes of trade as soon as possible. As soon as I get MapMaking, I will send galleys around the world, across open ocean if necessary, losing more than a few, until I make that contact. I do this because of the value of trading in the Civ III game design. If Firaxis can confirm that the AI does not have this same priority then maybe I'll concede that this is an exploit, but I'll have to ask then why doesn't the AI do this?

The AI is normally faster than I am at going boating, but that may be because I'm playing at a level where they have some advantages. I can see why aggressively persuing that tactic would give you an advantage if you could locate a continent with whom you had exclusive trading potential for a few turns. Then I think of the wealth and power nations like Spain and England had at certain points in history when they had this kind of overseas trade advantage and relax. It's not like you're going to retain it for very long unless you're playing on easy street, and two continents of similar numbers of countries should be at roughly the same level of tech anyway. Its always possible to voluntarily limit yourself to not sailing your triremes out of coastal waters if you like your current difficulty level but this tactic makes it a little unbalanced.

	15-02-2002 13:47									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy As if they werent enough already

Yes, the AI trade techs with each other freely.

I'm playing a game right now in which I handicapped three civs (Greece, Iran, and Ethiopia) by not allowing them to build settlers. That means they will only have one city each unless they find goody huts with settlers or through conquest (Usually Ethiopia does find one or two more cities because they are expansionist). And yet, they still manage to keep up in the tech race. How can they possibly do this without cheating?

I guess this is okay because I'm playing on the Emperor level and it makes the game more "fun". But it just goes to show the AI have an "old boys network" thing going on.

	15-02-2002 18:03									#29
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar I guess this is okay because I'm playing on the Emperor level and it makes the game more "fun". But it just goes to show the AI have an "old boys network" thing going on.

It's not cheating to trade techs. I'm part of the "old boys network" myself. I trade constantly and profitably.

	15-02-2002 18:33									#30
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quote: Originally posted by siredgar ...they still manage to keep up in the tech race. How can they possibly do this without cheating?

When I'm trading my techs I sell it to everybody, because even if I only get 5 gold its 5 more than I would get if someone else sold the tech to them a turn later. I think the AI is now doing much the same rather than holding out for fixed minimum prices as it may have done in the past, hence the reference to 'more aggressive' trading.